Riot, I don't understand your two separate ways of balance

DeusVult·Feb 26, 2015·67 votes·2,824 views

And by two separate ways, I mean this; how, for some champs, , you can nerf them sooooooooo hard, either in one massive ass-rape, or in several small widenings, and for reasons which you most of the time keep to yourself these champs are labeled as toxic are butchered to the point where they will never win a game again.

But then for some champs that the community as a whole views as being better than every other champ, especially at their role, , they can be by far the best choice, see sky high pick and ban rates, good win rates, tons of LCS play, and yet you won't touch them and instead leave them for years sitting at the top, or you will say "yes, they need to be nerfed, were working on it" in a patch notes, and then give them a free dash or 0.5% less attack speed on a 300AD champ and call it a day.

Rito, what I really want to know is why you are so quick to destroy a champ for doing well and then when another champ does well, you say, "well this is what they were meant to do, deal with it suckas"

61 Comments

Nucleophilic atkFeb 26, 201515 votes

It boils down to this: Can champ make flashy #LC$BIGPLAY$? If yes, allow them to be strong. If no, nerf them.

ZmuecatFeb 26, 20153 votes

Maybe Sona can start making those plays now that the ultimate skin is out.

Circuit BearFeb 26, 20151 votes

I dunno if it would even be allowed in LCS

I believe there is a policy against skins that make the game hard to read. Not sure if it qualifies though since Pulsefire and I think spiritguard udyr are allowed.

Emmy Cha0sFeb 28, 20151 votes

So long as Fearless continues working at Riot, Sona will never be allowed to be a playmaker. Or even playable.

Evil JesterFeb 26, 201511 votes

Thresh had 5 consecutive nerfs in a row. Everything from his ULT, to his basic attack ranges, damage ratios, souls spawning, Q range ect. Im not saying thresh is not a good support but If after 5 nerfs you still can't deal with the champion then I am less inclined to believe that the champion is the problem.

LankPantsFeb 26, 201526 votes

And yet he's still a top pick at all levels of play. I wonder if it could be because Riot released a champ with a super overloaded kit that numbers nerfs wont fix...

Evil JesterFeb 26, 20153 votes

{quoted}

And yet he's still a top pick at all levels of play. I wonder if it could be because Riot released a champ with a super overloaded kit that numbers nerfs wont fix...

But they didn't just adjust numbers, they've altered Q wind up, box delays, and there are other sups with overloaded kits as well. look at lulu, or nami.

LankPantsFeb 26, 201521 votes

look at lulu, or nami.

Lulu and Nami aren't overloaded to anywhere near the same extent as Thresh. Nami's slightly overtuned and Lulu's just tuned very weirdly but neither of them have as much random shit in their kits as Thresh does.

Most of their abilities are fairly straight forward and do one thing. Comparatively Thresh has a lot of things in his kit he could absolutely function without, if you removed his bonus AP on his passive, his shield on lantern or his bonus damage on AA from E he would still be completly functional and playable, I'd go as far as to say still most likely a top pick. Removing effects from Nami's or Lulu's abilities would most likely gimp them.

One other point about most supports is that their ults are major power-sinks which makes them have very defined periods of weakness and power. Thresh's box is actually his weakest active spell so he doesn't lose overly much power when it's down. This isn't a problem by itself but in order to compensate for his lack of a period of weakness you need to tone down his period of power. Thresh should be weaker than another support with all 4 of their spells up because he's sure as hell stronger than them if they've both blown their ults.

Circuit BearFeb 26, 20153 votes

That is kinda fair but at the same time I need to point this out since it actually is significant.

Lulu and Nami have a "lot" in their kit, but the value is dramatically different. Lantern on its own is good enough to be an ultimate in a sense that it allows for things no other character can do. Not that I think it needs a "nerf" exactly. But Nami have speed buffs that are fairly small, a stun, a heal and a slow moving knockup slow is countered by the lantern,a nd the fact Thresh has arguably the best form of cc in the game. Displacements. Not only that, he has two of them.

Pulls are inherently stronger then most other forms of CC due to the way they work and the rarity. The only case Thresh's q is bad is running away except he can run to a minion. As for actual disengage. He has his ult and flay for that.

I guess what I mean is that other characters specialize in somethiing. Lulu is more about buffing up someone. Thresh not only can do picks, hard engages, disengage. But he cans ave people from scenarios not possible by others, use his lantern to allow for lane ganks that shouldn't be possible(and can't be warded against unless you go into their jungle) and making silly gimmicks like dragon steals without a flash to escape possible.

Yes, other supports have a lot in their kits. But what Thresh has is worth significantly more. On top of that, what he has, is very hard for most traditional supports(nami for example) to deal with in that one hook, even if you dodge fifty, usually equals death.

JustMyBassCannonFeb 26, 20159 votes

Olaf, Poppy, Urgot, Veigar, Kassadin, Mordekaiser, Evelynn, Elise, Diana, Sona and Yorick actually caused a lot of balance issues, and still do today. Were they actually viable, they have a lot of anti-interaction in their kits that would make the game extremely stale.

I don't know why Galio's in that list; honestly, he's had just as many buffs as he's had nerfs, and his problem is an innately weak initiation. Riot didn't give him a blink, so he doesn't have a free, perfect setup for his ultimate.

Lee Sin, Leblanc, Zed, Nidalee, Thresh, Kalista, Gnar and Leona (~~god fucking dammit, I hate these icons~~) do not actually cause stale gameplay. They have interesting interactions that can be used by pro players, or be outplayed by smart opponents.

You can tell me I'm wrong, but at the end of the day, there's nothing you can do about a CC-proof, damage-resisting bruiser that gets higher DPS and defense with lower HP. There's nothing you can do about a mage who can jump on top of you, silence+slow you, then walk away without you retaliating before the silence ends, then repeat it 7 seconds later. There's nothing you can do about an instant, guaranteed 2.5-second stun followed by extremely high burst damage. There's nothing you can do about someone who is literally immune to everyone but that one assassin on your team who can't really kill bruisers in the first place.

I could keep doing that, but while the champions in the 1st list have actually had entirely uncounterable effects in their kits, the second list has counter-play to their kits. The fact that they don't have ridiculous win rates and players above gold don't actually complain about them is at least some evidence to that fact.

Yes, go ahead and downvote me instead of debating the point. Because popularity usurps the need to find truth.

BluePolarizerFeb 26, 201521 votes

the interaction is to not let them do their thing with strategy and positioning.

Veigar could 100-0 Xerath every single time Xerath comes into lane (well, old veigar could; new one's stun can't even beat Xerath's MS) - if Xerath got into range. The reality was Xerath chunks Veigar for 1/4 his HP every time his Q comes up without taking even 1 damage, and if Veigar tries to laughably run up to Xerath and land a stun, Xerath can stun him from an even further range, then Q/W/ult for the kill.

Veigar could 100-0 Zed every time Zed jumped on him. The solution is for Zed to roam better than Veigar with his mobility and wreck all other lanes; Veigar can't 1v5.

You can kite Olaf extremely easily with a good team. You beat Kassadin by beating him in lane before his damage got too high, play Yasuo, hard engage his team (because Kassadin can't 1v5), or even just play Jax mid and wreck him. I saw too many Kassadin tops get rekt by Jax thanks to Jax's innate tankiness, high burst and lack of reliance on spells, and Kassadin just won't be able to compete. League is not a 1v1 game, it is not 5 1v1's in a row, it is a 5v5 game where champion interactions with other lanes matters.

How about use your brain and outthink the opponent, rather than out-twitch him with a mouse?

JustMyBassCannonFeb 26, 20154 votes

Every single one of those interactions is to avoid interacting with them, basically.

Xerath vs Veigar; Xerath needs solid mana sustain other than his passive to be able to afford just throwing spells from maximum range. Otherwise, he's going to be close enough to try trading. Pre-rework, if Veigar charges Xerath while he's charging Q, he could easily catch him, possibly interrupt it, and toss his spells, walk away and watch the carnage. Either Veigar is stuck at arm's length with no means to interact, or Xerath can't really afford to try interacting with Veigar.

Zed vs Veigar; he runs away to fight other champs, because a smart Veigar still screws him up.

You say you can kite Olaf easily, but unless you have multiple, repeatable flashes, between his slow and immunity to CC, not to mention the abundance of mobility items and Ghost, I'd like to see it happen.

You couldn't beat Kassadin back when he had the silence and stronger slow, unless your spells had a range advantage and you predicted his Riftwalks. Today, he actually has some counter-play available because of the changes. People bitch and moan, but it's not that bad; otherwise, he would actually have a significantly mauled win rate.

No, League is not a set of 1v1s, but the laning phase is 2 1v1s, a 2v2 and a pair of equalizers that do what they want. When the game transitions to the team phase, the team with the strongest assets and best coordination that wins. Given an equal-power setup, I would prefer pre-nerf Olaf over any iteration of Lee Sin in sheer power.

And it's funny that you're trying to imply that practiced reflexes don't out-think and out-play. Knowing how to react to a situation is the basis of out-playing.

BluePolarizerFeb 26, 201511 votes

So how does Veigar counterplay a Zed that can dodge every single one of his skillshots and kill him with Ult+E+BoRK/Ghostblade empowered autos alone, because Veigar's stun is laughingly easy to dodge? And even old Veigar could not do shit against Xerath because Xerath doesn't need to go in to trade at all; Veigar has to walk into his minion line to even touch him, and pre-6, Veigar can't realistically threaten Xerath at all. Post-6, Xerath already has mana sustain and can AFK waveclear while Veigar's waveclear is subpar, meaning he gets pushed into tower without Xerath having any threats whatsoever because Xerath near his own tower, loses CS, and loses time, most importantly. Veigar, despite his infinite scaling, is not good late game due to his squishiness and short range, as noted by high elo (diamond 1) Veigar mains. He HAS to snowball mid game. Guess what he can't do if he's pushed into his turret? Xerath, on the other hand, is the king of late game mages.

Can't kite Olaf? Really? Vayne Lucian Kalista ? Really? And even if you can't permakite him, all you need to do is kite him for 3-5 seconds for the rest of your team to melt him because he has no gapcloser and takes massive damage just getting into melee range.

Even pre-nerf Kassadin wasn't that strong in terms of win rates, and was easily counterpicked by Yasuo, Riven, Jax or any other high damage bruiser. Besides, win rates are mostly bronze and silvers.

There is nothing wrong with no interaction because sometimes the best interaction is getting away and making plays elsewhere. Sometimes you just lose lane, but guess what, losing lane doesn't mean losing game. The final goal of each champion should be to win the game, not win lane, because it is impossible that all champs are equal in lane or even have equal chances.

DeusVultFeb 26, 20152 votes

you can kite olaf because if he builds tank, then he doesn't deal enough damage to kill anyone, and if he does build damage, then he melts while ult charging you

the only way that olaf can go man mode is if he is really fed and even then its difficult

JustMyBassCannonFeb 27, 20151 votes

You're talking about Olaf now.

I'm talking about Olaf before his infamous nerf. Y'know, when he was fucking obliterating everything.

Circuit BearFeb 26, 20152 votes

I want it pointed out that you say Veigar has no counter play. Isn't this kinda how Zed works? Buy an item becomes useless? Banshees veil removes the threat of the stun and you can usually just all in him, or mercurial. Then there is tenacity cause you know... Veigar uses normal stuns and not the knockup spree. And the tenacity actually makes it possible to dodge the dark matter with the mobility of Zed.

Also, shove him into the turret and he loses most mininons and doesn't get to stack that much as a mid lane scenario. Which Zed is good at. Without stacks or enough last hits. You either force him to dark matter to clear, no stacks, and uses up his mana.

There is also hex drinker for early game dominance.

But Zed shouldn't have to itemize against his opponent right? Only Zed is allowed for force item buys.

JustMyBassCannonFeb 27, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Circuit Bear,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LvzchikO,comment-id=0003000000000002,timestamp=2015-02-26T17:22:03.054+0000)

I want it pointed out that you say Veigar has no counter play.

I want it pointed out that I was saying he had no counter-play. You could avoid Dark Matter if he was just free-spamming it, and if you had extremely long range, you could kill him without interacting with him. There are also a small number of abilities that make the user untargetable, which would allow them to dodge Veigar's spells.

Aside from those very specific things, it was usually a case of Veigar lands his E on his target, W-R-Q's them, then walks away whether they died or not; a completely non-interactive "duel."

Isn't this kinda how Zed works? Buy an item becomes useless? Banshees veil removes the threat of the stun and you can usually just all in him, or mercurial. Then there is tenacity cause you know... Veigar uses normal stuns and not the knockup spree. And the tenacity actually makes it possible to dodge the dark matter with the mobility of Zed.

Also, shove him into the turret and he loses most minions and doesn't get to stack that much as a mid lane scenario. Which Zed is good at. Without stacks or enough last hits. You either force him to dark matter to clear, no stacks, and uses up his mana.

There is also hex drinker for early game dominance.

Okay, I'm going to forgo the usual sarcastic rebuttal, because I'm not sure I can assume you'll catch my meaning.

First of all, I was not speaking of just Zed vs Veigar. Second, a stun is not the only tool Veigar has against Zed.

Specifically with Veigar vs Zed, there's Zhonya's Hourglass, which Zed literally cannot do a single damn thing to deal with it. With anyone, you can use several summoner spells to resist/nullify his ultimate.

Never mind that, while Zed does have strong lane harass, it's not hard to avoid the shurikens. Practice dodging skill shots.

But Zed shouldn't have to itemize against his opponent right? Only Zed is allowed for force item buys.

I'm not even going to ask where you were going with that one.

DivewingFeb 26, 201516 votes

Because out-twitching looks cooler. I dunno if you've noticed, but its all the champions who trade mobility for huge power in a certain aspect that are getting gutted, usually because of: QQ NO COUNTERPLAY. Ive seen too many people asking for annie/lissandra nerfs, and while i really dont want either to happen, i bet they will. Riot seems to not care about punishment as a result of care/foolish play, and is in fact making it easier to make mistakes by removing any instant punishers. Veigar stun delayed, syndra stun miniaturised, we had talon lose his silence which only made his match-ups more difficult and didn't actually fix his easy to execute disgusting burst combo (in fact they made it stronger). Anything with point and click cc is just too punishing in the League of Mobility and if a Zed gets combod by Lissandra because he used his shadow to waveclear then walked up to Lissandra, that is somehow a justification that Lissandra is overpowered. It's a fucking joke.

Note: Ive seen a lot of people who are under the impression that Lissandra is mobile..... (1 long cooldown delayed blink that is incredibly telegraphed and stoppable via cc chaining that is typically maxed last=mobile?)

BluePolarizerFeb 26, 20153 votes

lol watch as anything that beats lee sin, zed and kalista get rekt.

Annie, Lissandra and maybe even Maokai nerfs coming up.

YOU BEEN WARNEDFeb 26, 20151 votes

Lissandra isn't the best example.

She's a kite burst AP bruising CC mage.

Fuck that, kiting burst and CC should never align that well on one kit.

I don't think she's necessarily overpowered, but I do believe her kit design is overloaded. (not being compensated by mana regen nerfs early in the season proves it, also you see her enemies on tourneys take cleanse/QSS and she just ults herself)

Civil DawnFeb 27, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Because out-twitching looks cooler. I dunno if you've noticed, but its all the champions who trade mobility for huge power in a certain aspect that are getting gutted, usually because of: QQ NO COUNTERPLAY. Ive seen too many people asking for annie/lissandra nerfs, and while i really dont want either to happen, i bet they will. Riot seems to not care about punishment as a result of care/foolish play, and is in fact making it easier to make mistakes by removing any instant punishers. Veigar stun delayed, syndra stun miniaturised, we had talon lose his silence which only made his match-ups more difficult and didn't actually fix his easy to execute disgusting burst combo (in fact they made it stronger). Anything with point and click cc is just too punishing in the League of Mobility and if a Zed gets combod by Lissandra because he used his shadow to waveclear then walked up to Lissandra, that is somehow a justification that Lissandra is overpowered. It's a fucking joke.

Note: Ive seen a lot of people who are under the impression that Lissandra is mobile..... (1 long cooldown delayed blink that is incredibly telegraphed and stoppable via cc chaining that is typically maxed last=mobile?)

I know right! Can't upvote enough.

MinrogFeb 26, 20153 votes

I won't downvote you, but I think you are mistaken. Kalista/Zed/Leblanc/Nidalee have to be counterpicked, because there are only limited ways to counter them and they involve champion selection. Kalista is the worst offender, but Nidalee is practically impossible to fight for most junglers and if the enemy has Zed/Leblanc you simply can't play most mids against them. Also the mage you are describing with a 7 second silence and jump away was Leblanc (?) so I don't understand that part.

Why the fuck would Riot make the characters worthless instead of just fixing them. Add in a dash to the melee bruisers, a couple of extra passives with stats they don't need and maybe a stance change or two, some ability resets and then just remove the one skill that's holding them back?

JustMyBassCannonFeb 26, 20153 votes

Thank you for being willing to discuss; I'd prefer a debate to a popularity contest any day.
No, the champion who I was describing was Kassadin; a while back, he had a 2.6-second Silence, a 3-second Slow, both of which have low base cooldowns, and a blink with a 7-second cooldown.
Actually, Kalista, Zed, Leblanc and Nidalee don't require counter-picking to win. Sure, you don't want to make bad champion choices, but it's not hard to out-play them when you consider your options. If you don't see the options, the best way to find them is to play the champion yourself. You'll either figure it out by knowing how their kit works, or you'll learn how other players react against them. Either one teaches you the how-to-do.

Plus, they did just nerf Kalista's dash.

A lot of those champions wouldn't be fixed by simply throwing extras into their kits. They'd actually be too strong if they were given more things. Basically, they want to keep the more stifling gameplay options off the high-tier list, while they work on actual solutions to fix them. And there's a long list of champions that need work.

BluePolarizerFeb 26, 20159 votes

LOL what are the options? Have you seen high elo Zeds or LeBlancs play? They make the other players in their games (diamond 1's and challengers, mind you) look like Bronzes that get circles dashed around them.

JustMyBassCannonFeb 27, 20151 votes

Smart player outplays less smart players. M'kay.

Just because their opponents are in the same ranking/MMR, it doesn't mean they're equally smart. Faster, more experienced, sure, but intelligence and experience are separate entities.

If you take a second to comprehend that there are three summoner spells you can use to weaken, if not nullify, Zed's ultimate, you might begin to see just a bit of the counter-play available to everyone.

BluePolarizerFeb 28, 20151 votes

If those summoner spells were on the same CD or even double the CD of Zed's ultimate, you might have a point. I'm also pretty sure Diamond 1's and challengers are pretty smart game-wise.

JustMyBassCannonFeb 28, 20151 votes

I didn't say they weren't smart. I said they're not all equally smart.

This is on the level of arguing whether teachers or students are smarter. Teachers are more experienced, and they've studied the specific subject that they teach, but in any class where the teacher actually discusses the subject with students, they learn just as much as they teach, because the students think of things the teacher hasn't.

As for the summoner spell CDs, that's irrelevant; the summoner spells that can counter Zed's ultimate are all replicated by multiple champions' innate abilities.

If you happened to pick one of the champions that doesn't have any innate counter-play to Zed, well, that's called poor choice of champion. Counter-picking, it's a thing. Blind pick gets fucked in that regard, big deal.

BluePolarizerFeb 28, 20151 votes

Zed is not the most ridiculous of them because you can beat him with even Master Yi mid. The most annoying part of Zed is that he's an assassin with escapes (independent of waveclear) and waveclear, meaning that he doesn't have to snowball to get items, but he has the option of snowballing. No other assassin has this option. I would not say that Zed is OP, but that Zed is overloaded and has more options than other assassins. If they made his shuriken a point-and-click spell, he'd still be ridiculous in lane, but at least then he wouldn't have waveclear.

Meanwhile, LB, despite not having escape independent of waveclear, is just ridiculous due to her burst and mobility, and the only counterplay is her misplay.

JustMyBassCannonFeb 28, 20151 votes

{quoted}

No other assassin has this option.

No other assassin is capable of farming instead of killing champions?

I mean, sure, you could probably claim that about Fizz, maybe Akali, because they're both mostly single-target champs, but a lot of assassins have multi-target/AoE spells and solid last-hitting.

It's easier for Zed, I'll give you that at no contest. But it's not exclusive to Zed.

Meanwhile, LB, despite not having escape independent of waveclear, is just ridiculous due to her burst and mobility, and the only counterplay is her misplay.

CC, avoiding half of her spells, throwing spells at her for going all-in...y'know, the usual counter-play stuff.

BluePolarizerFeb 28, 20151 votes

You can't avoid LB's spells without mobility and her Q is point and click. Throwing spells at her - how? she has the fastest dash in the game, faster than missile travel speeds of most spells, that gives her the option of dashing back. There is no counterplay to a LB that has good mechanics and map awareness. You cannot say the same about a Xerath, Ziggs or Lux player. Hell you can't even say that about Nidalee or Zed players.

JustMyBassCannonFeb 28, 20151 votes

{quoted}

You can't avoid LB's spells without mobility and her Q is point and click.

Saying you can't avoid Leblanc's E or W is on the level of saying that Fizz's E is useless because it's not possible to react quickly enough to dodge with it. Note that I'm saying they're equally stupid statements.

Throwing spells at her - how? she has the fastest dash in the game, faster than missile travel speeds of most spells, that gives her the option of dashing back.

But it doesn't make her untargetable. React fast enough, and you can punish her for going all-in. Her CC can't stop your spellcasting, so unless someone else on her team is locking you down, you have the capacity to respond.

There is no counterplay to a LB that has good mechanics and map awareness. You cannot say the same about a Xerath, Ziggs or Lux player. Hell you can't even say that about Nidalee or Zed players.

Even if you are personally incapable of reacting to Leblanc, you have tools at your disposal. Most notable being Magic Resistance and Health, both of which are easily available to mid-laners.

"While you're building defense, she's building offense and out-scaling you."

Except that's totally false, because defense harshly out-scales offense in the laning phase.

MinrogFeb 26, 20158 votes

Nidalee is a Sona with spammable aoe damage, longer range poke, a wall jump and a better ADC buff. Nidalee is actually viable in all 4 lanes (counting jungle) as a flex pick and is a smothering control jungler with the second best mobility of all junglers, RekSai being better but only in a strategic sense. Sona gets nerfed when she's not even a top 5 support and is unviable in any other lane. Nidalee actually has been receiving buffs even though her LCS win rate is 87.5%. The other I noted are similarly overtuned/overkited with comparable win rates in the LCS. Lissandra actually has a higher win rate last I looked, but I think that's because she's not only a top/mid flex but that she also implies strong engage comps and is one of the few non-pick AP mages left.

I think the misfit champions could be fixed quite easily. Take Shen , rip the R out of his kit and give him an AOE damage/slow effect or something. That's it, then he could get MR/lvl and a real defensive shield that scales off of AP and better base stats. The fact they made him garbage and left it that way for years speaks volumes about how bad they are.

Volibear is easy too. Rip that trash R he's got out, give him a lightning bolt skill shot gap closer instead.

Poppy is the same. Rip away the R, which is the only no-counterplay ability she has, and change it up to a second gap closer like other assassins have.

Diana Elise I don't know these ones too well. How is Leblac okay as an AP assassin mid and Nidalee is okay as an AP-everything but Diana/Elise can't be anything anywhere? Should we just throw up our hands and assume Riot isn't going to repair their broken windows?

They have piles of money, this is a top-down issue at Riot or it would have been taken care of years ago.

Praetor DonFeb 27, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I think the misfit champions could be fixed quite easily. Take , rip the R out of his kit and give him an AOE damage/slow effect or something. That's it, then he could get MR/lvl and a real defensive shield that scales off of AP and better base stats. The fact they made him garbage and left it that way for years speaks volumes about how bad they are.

His R is what makes Shen, Shen.

RogueWillFeb 26, 20152 votes

Let me tell you something, There isn't really much you can do with Kalista unless you blow her on one go.

I'm playing Sejuani with all my abilities up, plus item 3143 and item 3009 with Aclarity enchantment. And I still can't catch her.... that's somehow frustrating for a champion who her main theme is locking down opponents. Besides the eventual shaco that is really annoying to catch I have no problem catching any other champion. Even Lee and Leblanc are caught with all their mobility. I wouldn't mind if Kalista had a burst of Movement speed for 0.5 sec so she could still travel the same distance after an auto, but a dash is immune to slows, she is like old Lucian with her Relentless Persuit but worse. at least on Lucian the second slow would work....

JustMyBassCannonFeb 27, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Let me tell you something, There isn't really much you can do with Kalista unless you blow her on one go.

Hmm, that sounds like a job for an assassin or mage.

Y'know, the usual class that bursts targets.

RrettFeb 27, 20151 votes

Urgot had cancerous game play, before his nerfs I was actively playing him. He was certainly Different and I enjoyed that. The nerfs were to far and they only did it so they can leave urgot in a corner untill the figure out something to do with him.

Poppy has been out of commision for so long I don't know what to say about that. I'm not sure they nerf fucked her I think they just left as is.

Olaf was very, very uncalled for. That was blatant over nerfing, and I didn't think he was that bad.

Veigar didn't cause balance issues at all. If not for them deciding to remove DFG they would have left him be for the next 3 years.

Kassadin deserved this nerf, but he deserved it 2 years ago.

Mordekaiser hasn't been a problem for a looooooong time. He was OP at the time as I played him until the nerf.

Evelynn was riots own stupidity. Second I saw that rework I was laughing at how OP she was, and then next patch they buffed her. Took them 4 more months before they finally nerfed her to the ground. I had a good run with her but riot was really fucking stupid on that one. I could tell from the instant I read the patch notes she was a god. Not sure why they reworked her just to garbage her 4 months later. What a waste.

Elise took over a year to nerf, and I'm glad they did. It shouldn't have taken a year to get to though. This is the same as the Yasuo problem, but not as bad. Yasuo needed to be removed from the game since release day, as NO ONE liked playing against him.

Diana took to long to get too to. Same case with the current OP list, they just take to long to nerf bat them, where others like veigar just get fucked for no reason.

Sona has been up and down so many times I don't even care. If you want a stable champ don't pick sona because I've never seen someone get buffed and nerfed into the ground and into the sky so many times. It's amazing really.

do not actually cause stale gameplay.

No one likes playing against them. Period. They also all lack a staggering amount of counterplay. If the enemy is amazing at them you're beyond fucked. To easy to do good with them and Leeping around the whole map 6 times in a second is a little annoying.

There's nothing you can do about an instant, guaranteed 2.5-second stun followed by extremely high burst damage

The only person I've seen who can be said to master veigar E is dabox. Simply speaking it takes about 1000 games as veigar in diamond+ in order to get that instant gauranteed stun. The amount of people you seen do it quickly and consistently in your game probably amounts to 0. There's not many of us, even sadistic veigar can't quickcast it. That's because he doesn't quickcast at all though.

It was an unhealthy spell, but the people who could actually make it unhealthy were very, very limited.

JustMyBassCannonFeb 27, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Olaf was very, very uncalled for. That was blatant over nerfing, and I didn't think he was that bad.

Unfortunately, personal bias doesn't dictate whether or not a champion was actually problematic.

Yes, he was nerfed harder than any other champion. There's a reason "being Olaf'd" overwrote "better nerf Irelia" as a popular statement.

Veigar didn't cause balance issues at all. If not for them deciding to remove DFG they would have left him be for the next 3 years.

Either he wasn't strong enough to make his boring mechanics worthwhile, or he was too strong because of the huge AoE stun that he could guarantee, plus heavy burst damage.

If he wasn't causing balance issues, it was because he was worthless aside from his E. If he was, then it was his E, plus the rest of his pretty-much-guaranteed burst damage pushing him into the spotlight.

Mordekaiser hasn't been a problem for a looooooong time. He was OP at the time as I played him until the nerf.

He hasn't been a problem because he was Olaf'd before Olaf was Olaf'd. If you've been around as long as I have, you would know that much.

But his kit design was a problem that they've only recently started fixing. They started with his ultimate, which I think was a great idea; that thing is a clusterfuck of mechanics, and simplifying them (and making them public knowledge) is a step in the right direction.

No one likes playing against them. Period.

Yet another reason I'm proud to refer to myself as no one.

They also all lack a staggering amount of counterplay.

That depends on how you define counter-play.

Because I define counter-play as the capacity to out-maneuver an opponent.

If the enemy is amazing at them you're beyond fucked.

If my opponent is better than me, I'm screwed. If I'm better than them, they're screwed. Sounds like the generic idea of competitive games. Add in the layer of whose team is more coordinated and more skilled, and you have the average MOBA.

To easy to do good with them and Leeping around the whole map 6 times in a second is a little annoying.

Last I checked, the two champions who can leap all around the map are Rek'sai and Shen. Nobody can dash 6 times in a second. And there are very few champions who can make multiple, rapid jumps, but that's their niche tool.

But please; continue with the hyperbolic statements. They're totally making you more credible.

The only person I've seen who can be said to master veigar E is dabox. Simply speaking it takes about 1000 games as veigar in diamond+ in order to get that instant gauranteed stun. The amount of people you seen do it quickly and consistently in your game probably amounts to 0. There's not many of us, even sadistic veigar can't quickcast it. That's because he doesn't quickcast at all though.

It was an unhealthy spell, but the people who could actually make it unhealthy were very, very limited.

I smartcast. Everyone I know uses smartcasting. And I've actually played against several nameless Veigars who managed multiple, guaranteed stuns in the same game. But considering you don't believe someone can do it without a thousand games in Diamond (because setting a hyperbolic prerequisite to your beliefs is totally sane), I'm not going to expect you to believe me.

I'm pretty damn sure I could do it, if I actually played Veigar for a few games.

SmokingPuffinFeb 26, 20156 votes

How did Leona get on your list? Her kit seems really fair to me.

Circuit BearFeb 26, 20152 votes

Her win rate is very high for her play rate. It's rare for high play rate characters to have the win rate that Leona Blitz have.

They've been sitting juts below Janna(And sona previously) for a while, who were arguably the best characters to handle them for different reasons. Sona had a specific way of counter playing them if the Leona blitz were bad(and most are cause with high play rates its assumed that non mains are playing them) which was to poke Leona/Blitz down pre level 2/3 which is when Leona blitz would all in a lot. If you put them low health most Leona's and blitz's all the way to plat would just kinda let you roll over them the rest of laning phase. I can't speak to diamond.

Which is why you should see their win rate go up, since the only two charactesr with higher play rates are getting hit frequently and were honestly the best way to deal with them imo. Allistar is an option I suppose but almost nobody plays him.

SmokingPuffinFeb 26, 20152 votes

Leona is pretty strong in solo queue. I just don't see why she's on a list with LeeSin Leblanc Zed Nidalee -- this is a list of champions that mostly sucks in solo queue, but are really good in the hands of highly skilled players. Leona is only a niche pick in competitive, unlike this list of staple champs.

Leona's main virtue is that she's simple and clear. She's not at all versatile, which is the thing that really gets people about the above champion list. Generally, when Leona kills you, it feels pretty fair; you know that you were supposed to not get hit by that E.

I do think that Janna nerf tends to mean Leona gets better. She's got a fantastic Blitz matchup and that's really useful right now. She might need nerfs; she also might not, because the Janna nerf is going to have a bigger impact on competitive than solo queue.

My current estimate of the Leona/Sona matchup is that it's big advantage Leona right now. Sona can win, but the tricks that she used to use (exploiting level 2 advantage, burst windows with aa-q-aa) to put big damage on Leona early don't work as well as they used to. Leona can reliably get to level 3 without using all her pots.

Circuit BearFeb 26, 20151 votes

Sure that is fair to an extent. I would disagree with a few things. Zed, and Leblanc mainly. But the stats are against me on that one so I'll give it to you. I don't think they necessarily suck in solo queue but so many people play them or pick them because they are usually banned that the win rate gets skewed abit. Again, technically they lose more in soloqueue though so you would be right.

The rest of my post is me griping about Leona/blitz/Thresh cause my Sona Q_Q. So Bias is involved. But for your purpose to why she is on this list, I assumed she was on it because she was frequently played/banned like most the list. But what you are saying makes sense at the same time.

My main disagreement comes from the "you deserve to die to a Leona". Here is what I see against Leona with traditional supports. If they walk towards you with ult, you are forced to run straight back since strafing will get you screwed as her movement speed is higher then most. Some supports can burn mana for the speed boost, but that is advantagous to her with the mana changes. If you run in a straight line she can box you between the ult and her e. The other option she has that should near guarantee her a kill is the flash q, ult into e for the flash. Since most traditional supports don't have a good answer for that and her e can catch the flash pretty easy, it does work fairly well.

Along with that, her e is fairly wide(unless I missed a nerf somewhere, it can hit an entire row of caster minions all spread out horizontally if she is firing vertically which is fairly wide). And morgana q's are fairly hard to dodge when avoiding other skill shots. More so, there are intelligent ways to punsih with it. As most have to stand still to auto or spell cast, it allows you to pick them when they are stuck on the animation using your higher movement speed for positioning.

I could go on for a while, but I'e already maxed out the character limit on another post today. Basically, I don't think Leona is that hard to play and that her e is so easy to dodge as to feel outplayed when hit by it. I don't know I would say it is overpowered except for the way the other supports are being treated will lead to that eventually. Janna and Sona have both been nerfed at least twice directly(ignoring mana chalice nerfs) in the past few months.

Leona is very good because she deals with Blitz Thresh, when she is nerfed, Blitz will go over 54% consistenty which he is already edging around. The problem is that with her counters being nerfed, she and her opponents will also just begin to get out of control. Then if she is nerfed they get worse. If they get nerfed, she should show a small decline but her counters were dealt with already so she will probably stay a bit consistent.

But with how long Blitz Leona have been at their win ratios I don't see this happening until they get over 54.5%

windwolf777Feb 26, 20154 votes

Here, I can explain them to you. Balance ways 1: LC$BIG MOTHERFUCKING PLAYZZZZZ 4 DAYZZEEE Balance ways 2: Fuck you we don't care

TheI3igDaddyFeb 26, 20153 votes

Gnar HAS been nerfed, though. As much as I hate to say something positive about this champion, he has been toned down since release.

Gnar's problem is just that he's overloaded as fuck and the excuse is 'muh random transformations'.

Kitten of EvilFeb 27, 20151 votes

Well, for some of the nerfed-to-death ones, their kits are inherently toxic so they're kept weak until Riot can figure out how to manage that problem.

Evelynn is probably the biggest example (permanent stealth and immunity to wards except pinks, which are visible to her so she can take them out easily -- imagine if any other jungler had permanent raptor buff) Poppy has a fairly toxic kit (her ult is as long as 3 Kayle ults and her passive discourages her from buying health and has a ton of hidden power) Sona is very tricky to balance because her kit is completely uninteractive -- are you in range? Then she hits you. No need to aim, or even point and click. The only way to avoid her poke is to always be out of (rather long -- 950) range. As long as her kit is the way it is, she will be problematic.

Honestly, I think some of the ones you listed also have toxic kits (most notably Nidalee, who does NOT need a heal and a long-range poke and an execute and a free dash on a 5sec cooldown... her toxicity is largely due to her spears and their spammability, and also her heal and its utility on a non-support champion ... Kalista also has a toxic kit imo, but her problem is that her passive holds almost her entire power budget. Without it, she's a stealthless Twitch with a slightly better stacking mechanism). Lee and Thresh are overloaded, but that's more solvable and can be addressed by removing some utility. They are a problem, but they aren't as blatantly broken as the others.

Overloaded is not the same as broken.

Pika310Feb 28, 20153 votes

The only way to avoid Sona's poke is to always be out of (rather long -- 950) range.

I don't know where the hell you got that number from. The wikia falsely lists Hymn as 850, the main site incorrectly claims 825 and its actual value is 700 units. It seems to me you're just creating falsities completely out of thin air.

Kitten of EvilFeb 28, 20151 votes

Yes, okay, I misread the Wikia and wrote 950 rather than the 850 it listed. If three different sources indicate three different ranges, my confusion on this matter should be entirely understandable. Feel free to disregard the actual valid point I make -- that regardless of her range, it is literally and completely unavoidable damage. That is why it's been tricky to balance.

Pika310Feb 28, 20153 votes

As opposed to other champions' unavoidable damage? Any ranged auto attack, Nami's W, Lulu's E+Q, Fiddle's E and W and countless other abilities. All of which completely outdamage Sona and the majority outrange her too.

What you're doing is called prejudice. You're specifically singling out Sona for an issue that is infinitely more prevalent in countless other champions.

Kitten of EvilFeb 28, 20151 votes

It's really not. Lulu's E requires her to point and click a target once in range. Ranged auto attacks require a point and click, or an attack-click. They can be avoided by, for example, removing sight (i.e. walking into a bush), or leaving the champion's range before they can cast the spell (usually these spells have cast-times). There's not really any option to do the same for Sona because it is an instant, auto-targeting cast.

There is a difference between point-and-click and auto-targeting, and there's a reason most auto-targeting movies (such as Ahri's W) are relatively short-ranged or have been placed on ultimate skills. If you're in Ahri's 550 W range, you're already dead. Karthus' and Morg's ult has a long channel time and at any rate are up every 100+ seconds. Other auto-targeted skills require some action beforehand (Sejuani's Permafrost and Kalista's Rend). Sona's is the only one i know of that both prioritizes Champions and also can strike from long-range.

My point is not that Sona is OP at the moment, it's just that her kit, being absolutely aimless and auto-targeting, is very hard to outplay because if you are in range, she will hit you. She doesn't even have to point and click at you.

Emmy Cha0sFeb 28, 20152 votes

May the bronze be with you.

Kitten of EvilFeb 28, 20151 votes

Thank you!