Boards›Gameplay

I'm all for Rylai's going back to a niche item....

WoonStruck··93 votes·4,285 views

But you're dropping the slot efficiency by 25% along with nerfing the main reason the 'niche' users bought it, which was the Slow+HP.

Total cost: 3200->2600.

HP: 400->300 ( 1067g->800g) AP: 100->75 (2175g->1631g) Slow: 20% for 1 second.

Yes, Rylai's desperately needed a nerf, but halving the slow in all instances along with removing 25% of its stats seems just a little heavy-handed.

Can't you try reverting it to its pre-pre-MYMU buffs and adjust it from there if it still proves problematic?

Total cost: 3000g->3200g

HP: 500

AP: 80 (likely needs to be 60-70 to account for MYMU AP drops)

Slow: 35%/15%/15% for Single/AoE/DoT spells for 1.5 seconds.

The item was perfectly fine back then.

If this version on the PBE rolls out, only the original niche users of the item will ever buy it, and they'll be gimped with it even though they practically require it to function.

The old Rylai's users will now have a toxic relationship with the item like old Vlad and WotA.

X Item will be held back because Y champions will abuse it if its decent; Z champion will be held back by X item because they require it to function.

Even Frozen Mallet didn't get hit this hard when it was must-buy on every melee in seasons one and two. And it got hit HARD.

Hell, even Ez was buying it for his Q spam.

126 Comments

Malicious Metal18 votes

400 Hp and 70 AP too much to ask for?

TequilaZombie15 votes

Honestly? I'd be fine with even 60 AP. Hell, make it 500 hp and 50 AP and I won't even care as much. Just let me be tanky as fuck.

6Sfool9 votes

700 hp and 30 ap. Let's frozen mallet this shit.

SolarisCorvus1 votes

800 hp and 20 ap

Zok7210 votes

900 hp, 10 ap, and I'll throw in free shipping, but that's my final offer!

Keìron10 votes

1100 hp and -10 ap.

Ale non è male2 votes

{quoted}

Honestly? I'd be fine with even 60 AP. Hell, make it 500 hp and 50 AP and I won't even care as much. Just let me be tanky as fuck.

Which would defy the purpose of Rylai and would made it even worse... The problem is that Rylai must be one of the 1-2 damage item in a tanky AP build, so what you have to do is not reduce its damage below the acceptable level (70-80 AP would be fine), but encourage the damage oriented Ap champs to buy different kind of items for damage Increase the AP of the AP items that are meant to do damage or add additional damage on them (like for example put the item 3001 passive on a more offensive oriented item and give to that item a defensive oriented passive) , and if champions end up being too strong hit their damage or ratios; gout completely Rylay damage is stupid

WoonStruck1 votes

Gutting Rylai's damage is fine. Gutting the passive and HP, which is why users not abusing the item for damage would even want it, is not fine.

Ale non è male1 votes

{quoted}

Gutting Rylai's damage is fine. Gutting the passive and HP, which is why users not abusing the item for damage would even want it, is not fine.

Don't misunderstand, please, reduce Rylai damage to pre mage update is really fine I was answering to the guys that thought it was reasonable to reduce Rylai damage below that level, or even FrozenMalleting it...that's just NOT ok. You can't just shut down an entire class of Champions because overreactions The people are abusing the combination of very strong utility/CC passive + eccessive damage IN COMPARISON WITH THE OTHER DAMAGE CHOICES. Rylai became a problem when people have found it as an optimal option after mage update, because people that should not get it, well, get it. Its damage wasn't a problem when Rylai was built by the champs that were meant to built it, so I don't see why it should be overnerfed, rather than working on a better offensive itemization for mages to not make them pick Rylai

They should reduce Rylai damage to pre mage update and reduce the passive effectiveness (or change the way it works to not make oppressing). But largely gut its damage to make it mainly an HP item is dumb, the same way of dumb reasoning that changes IBG from an annoying nice item to a straight out broken one (on champs that were not meant to buy it at first! ) over time and made Banner totally useless after the changes

Escheton11 votes

Singed "I like these changes"

TequilaZombie6 votes

Now I only need to double proxy for 6 minutes instead of 7 to get it!

Jerry SeinfeId1 votes

how are these changes good for him? you get less tanky and less damage and it barely costs less.

Spoofghoul9 votes

because as good as rylais is on singed it also counters him

Jerry SeinfeId2 votes

i can't deny that.

Zok722 votes

600 g is a pretty significant discount. And though Singed likes all of the stats on Rylai's, he derives more benefit from the slow than from the rest of it, so anything that doesn't reduce the slow he gets (which this doesn't) but reduces the cost increases how effective the purchase is for Singed.

xJLx MCHammer6 votes

Ah yes! Adc gets to kite but god forbid mages do it

I get that mages can be overwhelming because of pages spam spells like Ryze, or Cass. The correct fix was that it can be reapplied by the same spell within x seconds.

WoonStruck11 votes

I have to disagree. The correct fix would be changing it back to its pre-MYMU status.

Alongside that, make Cass's E apply as a Multi-target spell for the purposes of Rylai's like it used to before her first trash-tier rework so she gets the weakened slow. It was that way for a reason.

Do the same with Ryze if he's considered problematic. Do the same with ANYONE who's considered problematic with it.

Doseqis1 votes

Because i don't think mages should be able to be a tank late game while also having a strong as fk slow if they even clip you with an ability

Leon Etoile3 votes

Yet, ads take items to give them 15% more damage against stuff with higher hp than them. Which if you don't realize is rylai's almost puts them to.

Atanchan2 votes

This is the most bizarre contention towards AD itemization I've ever seen.

You have items that spike crits to ridiculous levels and improve DPS without even considering that, items that provide both DPS and bulk, items that turn physical damage into what's practically true damage on targets without armor items, an item that provides a solid chunk of AD while delaying damage and providing healing off all physical damage ... and your issue is an item that's just 50 AD on targets with no tank items and is otherwise based entirely on multipliers which its low AD for a completed item is barely even affected by.

Well, I have to give you points for originality, I suppose.

Trekkorm6 votes

I feel this change is made with ONLY rapid-fire mages like Cassiopeia and Brand in mind. Its like they forgot champions like Mordekaiser and Kassadin exist, champions that can throw out one spell every 5~ seconds and then have to wait for the cooldown.

Leon Etoile6 votes

Who builds Rylai's on Kass??

Legit have never seen it nor see why you would. You'll get your hp from Roa; have a built in slow and need effects (spellblade and zhonya's) more than another slow.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

I've done it once in a while in one of the more death ball oriented game modes so I could survive all the damage being thrown around but yeah, not the best item for him.

Leon Etoile1 votes

I honestly don't think items should be balanced around RGMs but why you built it does make sense in that case.

Guy Fox Teemo3 votes

The Niche users of it will be perfectly fine, I'd rather they only buy it as it should be a very niche item. Champions like Malzahar or Sing won't suffer at all from this, infact they may benefit as they can get it earlier. (Especially Sing).

WoonStruck9 votes

The niche users of it will not be perfectly fine considering most of them are already suffering sub-47% winrates on average while the item is considered overpowered.

Taking away more than 25% of the item's power will hit them much harder than its hitting the abusers, who will just move to another item.

Guy Fox Teemo3 votes

If thats so then they can receive buffs the following patch. Rylais was a toxic item that literally EVERY single mage built, which is ridiculous. IT needed hardcore nerfs and it got them. If the Niche users end up getting hit to hard Riot can buff those champions back up to be up to par.

I'd rather they be weak for a patch then have to deal with the cancerous item that is ryalis on every mage i face.

Xonra9 votes

"They can" and "Riot will give a damn" is not the same.

Leon Etoile2 votes

It isn't about buffs; those champs kits are designed around having Rylai's b/c of the MYMU. So, unless Rito is going to due another update on them; they are screwed.

Maximum Morde2 votes

But it's fine for everyone to take flash, or every ad assassin to build black cleaver, or every ADC to build IE.

Doseqis1 votes

Name the niche champions who use this, i'm pretty sure the only people who were using this are the ones who abused it.

OHminus2 votes

Singed, morde, and other melee aps that need the slow to chase down people.

Hence, it's niche.

Crett3 votes

item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 Mordekaiser item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070

Toru Itai3 votes

Rito dosn't like fine tuning. they use a sledgehammer wile sculpting.

FantasySniper2 votes

Yeah, this doesn't solve the problem at all.

Just an idea: Make it work like Nasus' Wither, where it builds up over time. Would make spamming it automatically worth less, and helps those who have long cool-downs find use in it.

NineTailedMystic3 votes

It solves the problem of it being bought by Burst Mages like Ahri and Syndra solely for its 100 AP.

FantasySniper3 votes

Except that burst mages like Syndra and Ahri won't feel the hit at all. They'll switch over to Luden's, which is arguably better for damage purposes in the first place. Meanwhile champions like Zyra, Brand, and Malzahar have no reason to switch over, and the price reduction only makes it easier on them budget-wise before they pick up Liandry's. Cassiopeia, Karthus, and the like will get started on their Zhonya's/Abyssal faster, as well.

I'm not saying 25 AP doesn't make a difference, but when it's the passive that's being abused and it's still effectively unchanged...

WoonStruck1 votes

Especially support Brand and support Zyra, who are both already seen as issues.

I have a feeling they'll either get gutted for this, or Riot will hit Rylai's again.

FantasySniper3 votes

Which sucks, because it's not really their fault that they've become dependent on persistent CC (like everyone else).

Support Zyra has been buying Rylai's since forever, and she really doesn't deserve to pay for Rylai's sins.

Mouse5341 votes

I like Brand support, finally got to try her sup as well. The cost has been lowered and that makes it better for them.

Yes the stats are not that good, but they are also lowering the cost of torment without touching numbers. This seems like a good thing in their support department.

Lower costs boosts supports more than anything, I seriously don't see why your complaining? We can get our rush cc item sooner, which is the main point for it in our builds anyway (that and our extreme synergies with liandry).

FantasySniper1 votes

I was talking about the inevitability of Zyra and Brand getting nerfed because they're so effective with Rylai's.

The fact that Liandry's price is getting reduced is great, though.

Mouse5341 votes

Here is hoping that it doesn't hit us too hard, I'm sure they are going to do some love to those that need it though. Rito seems to be doing a good job with that aspect lately, here is hoping they keep it going.

Divewing2 votes

Low-key as an Azir player I'm actually pretty excited. I can deal with a lower slow if it means getting it an extra 2 minutes earlier. Lord knows I'm currently useless until I have Rylais and minimum Stinger, I'll take any price drops I can get at this stage.

Ultîma2 votes

Imo, Rylais was never meant to be a high-AP item; making it a viable purchase for mages who like to stack burst was a mistake. 75 AP/400 HP with the new passive seems like a healthy compromise, but this just seems like it won't even be good on people who build this item as core. Liandries is going to give as much HP as Rylais now - that's just so, so wrong.

Spizzle90003 votes

Vladimir is already sitting at a 46% winrate, so I'd have to agree. They should honestly just revert the changes it received many, many patches ago.

Muddafragot2 votes

500 HP? On a mage item? That is NOT fine, are you high?

WoonStruck2 votes

Its perfectly fine. That's what it had when nobody but people that needed it for the utility bought it.

Dengeden1 votes

It makes perfect sense to me. The slow is for running down your enemy. 20% is enough to do that since AP bruisers tend to be DoT based. They reduced the stats because beefy AP bruisers don't care that much about AP and they can build more health with the 600 gold they have left over. You're also neglecting the impact a faster power spike if you analyze gold efficiency solely based on stats.

I don't think a revert would help all that much. Abyssal wasn't a common AP buy before the Athene's nerfs either and now it's a staple. Stacking AP has become less and less important over the years, thanks to AP ratios being lowered across the board and all champions becoming less about burst and more about outplays.

Leon Etoile3 votes

Do you trust Riot to go back and fix all the champs that Rylai's has been core on? They reworked/designed champs with the idea that they would have Rylai's.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by WoonStruck

Riot's Round Table sessions are full of lies.
Memes & Games107 comments
316
votes
Don't get me wrong, new champions are nice...but when are you going to focus on balance?
Gameplay164 comments
207
votes
Riot, you can't use your excuse for reworking Maokai when Lee Sin exists.
Gameplay173 comments
201
votes
Meddler, you said Assassin items would be made melee only if ranged started using them too much.
Gameplay89 comments
157
votes
Increasing Vlad's healing will not fix his issues.
Gameplay148 comments
157
votes
Remember when Riot said they'd remove Dynamic (Flex) if queue times were too high?
Gameplay123 comments
154
votes