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Does anyone else think that the juggernaut update was for the most part a balance disaster?

Yosuke Apperu··9 votes·1,823 views

I just went against a garen as hecarim... I was 3/0 and more cs so ofcourse i'm building damage, because of garen's passive he's doing true damage to me with his abilities.. so he builds a chain vest, bami cinder, and spectre's cowl and kills me under my tower...I miss the old garen.. where he was slightly less press R to win..Let's talk about his passive for a second... it punishes you for doing well! You scored a kill on the jungler that fail ganked you early'ish game(right around level six)? great well now garen get's true damage on you.. early game was a pain too because I would use all of my mana trying to get him down but then im oom and he can just regen it all like nothing.. Darius.. I have a problem with him too.. He can literally build straight tank and be near unkillable but still wreck faces because 200 bonus ad for free from a passive was a smart idea.. To be honest mordehue wasn't terrible, he's atleast able to be killed and he has to build damage to deal damage. Skarner was op but then got nerfed to death right after.. It's kind of a QQ thread/venting.. so I expect A metric ton of down votes. If you'd like feel free to share your experiences!

29 Comments

Arakadia2 votes

Actually I agree! My poor skarner though....

Yosuke Apperu1 votes

{quoted}

Actually I agree! My poor skarner though....

I enjoy skarner as well <3 >w<

corals1 votes

I love Skarner, not sure if Juggernaut is the best designation for him. It might be. Not sure if diving fighter is the best. Or if they even have a proper designation for him yet.

I do think he has room to be more fun/satisfying. And I actually think it can be done within the framework of his existing kit. My favorite idea is to turn the AS bonus on Skarner's spires into a on hit magic bonus. This bonus would gradually increase from a base amount the longer Skarner is on his spires. If he hits someone the energy is expended and it would go down to a base amount.

A change like that would add more game play into his spires at least.

The Whamboozler2 votes

Nah, you're pretty spot on. Garen is an unbalanced beast and Darius is almost as bad. Morde and skarner again reside firmly in the dumpster. the juggernaut update was a complete pile of steaming crap.

ScarnMichaelScar2 votes

{quoted}

I just went against a garen as hecarim... I was 3/0 and more cs so ofcourse i'm building damage, because of garen's passive he's doing true damage to me with his abilities.. so he builds a chain vest, bami cinder, and spectre's cowl and kills me under my tower...I miss the old garen.. where he was slightly less press R to win..Let's talk about his passive for a second... it punishes you for doing well! You scored a kill on the jungler that fail ganked you early'ish game(right around level six)? great well now garen get's true damage on you.. early game was a pain too because I would use all of my mana trying to get him down but then im oom and he can just regen it all like nothing.. Darius.. I have a problem with him too.. He can literally build straight tank and be near unkillable but still wreck faces because 200 bonus ad for free from a passive was a smart idea.. To be honest mordehue wasn't terrible, he's atleast able to be killed and he has to build damage to deal damage. Skarner was op but then got nerfed to death right after.. It's kind of a QQ thread/venting.. so I expect A metric ton of down votes. If you'd like feel free to share your experiences!

juggernaut patch was pure garbage and is leading to a lot of people getting nerfed because of how broken juggernaut itemization is.

riot doesn't know how to balance this game at all. they just want cool flashy sick lcs plays

Vekkna2 votes

Not a single good thing came out of the juggernaut patch.

And I really fucking hate people who call 500+ MS a "lack of mobility." It's just willful stupidity.

IcyPepper1 votes

Depends on how you define mobility.

The reason people typically consider MS boosts, even if it's high, is that it leaves the champion more susceptible to soft cc. Sure, they can go at super sanic speeds, but a good slow is either going to negate it (you can't just "take away" Diana or Zed's dashes, after all) or slow them down.

Mobility, or blinks/dashes, are instant. No time to make a gap between you and them with soft cc. Hard cc is better for dealing with those ones. Not to mention it can be used to dodge projectiles, aoe, and go over walls (Garen isn't getting past J4 once he ults).

If you really wanted to, you could compare mobility to crowd control and consider movement speed bonuses "soft mobility" and dashes/blinks "hard mobility." Or something like that.

I wouldn't go as far as to say willful stupidity, because there is some logic to it.

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

I feel like. when you look at numbers and at certain situations. juggernauts. are broken. but. they are so weird. I played garen and darius. a cpl times each. they feel. so clunky for some reason. hard to do anything with them. if their mechanics were as fluid as a bruiser. they would be pretty game breaking. but they made them clunky with beefy stats. thematic. a big stone wall of stats that is really hard to do anything with and move around

Big Lincoln1 votes

Darius was a great rework, has windows of power and counterplay with his sustain

the other 3 are a mess though.

EcchiOtakuTM1 votes

Darius was an amazing rework. The other 3 not so much, but the items were amazing and are being balanced more and more.

But it wasn't a balance disaster. It was just a disaster to the 3 champions (Morde/skarn and somewhat garen but garen isn't too bad so just skarn+morde.)

But balance-wise it wasn't an issue at all.

Variks the Loyal1 votes

Juggernauts. by virtue of being juggernauts, are not imbalanced. There are specific cases, but as a whole, they're not overpowered. Pit Garen against a Quinn or Graves who knows how to kite, and see who wins.

Also, they made it so Garen can't make his enemy laner the Villain, so he shouldn't be doing true damage to you.

Yosuke Apperu1 votes

{quoted}

Juggernauts. by virtue of being juggernauts, are not imbalanced. There are specific cases, but as a whole, they're not overpowered. Pit Garen against a Quinn or Graves who knows how to kite, and see who wins.

Also, they made it so Garen can't make his enemy laner the Villain, so he shouldn't be doing true damage to you.

Really? I'm still being marked as a villian rather often..

3TWarrior1 votes

actually, they made it so he can't mark someone who kills him as the villain...he will instead mark someone who say kills the enemy jungler or roams

The Deckowner1 votes

juggernuts are only melee counters, ranged champ fuck them.

but the limitation of counterplay is real

MoonToonEx1 votes

I don't understand how you had such a problem with Garen. You're the FAST PONY ... their main weakness is that they have to get to you to do dmg. If you're in a pinch in a 1v1 why not just run away? And the Mana thing is part of why some champs just don't have Mana (it helps their kit from a design PoV) ... so when you face someone with out Mana and you're OOM you should take that into account.

Anyway, their counterplay is such that I don't think they're a problem at all. If you know how to kite you will mess them up. If you're fast enough to run away they wont get to you.

Yosuke Apperu1 votes

{quoted}

I don't understand how you had such a problem with Garen. You're the FAST PONY ... their main weakness is that they have to get to you to do dmg. If you're in a pinch in a 1v1 why not just run away? And the Mana thing is part of why some champs just don't have Mana (it helps their kit from a design PoV) ... so when you face someone with out Mana and you're OOM you should take that into account.

Anyway, their counterplay is such that I don't think they're a problem at all. If you know how to kite you will mess them up. If you're fast enough to run away they wont get to you.

I tried playing safe under tower (even tho 3/0) and I was marked as the villian.. he built straight tank.. did true damage to me due to me being the villian and towers are pitifully weak at any point above level 3.

Moulin Rouge1 votes

{quoted}

I don't understand how you had such a problem with Garen. You're the FAST PONY ... their main weakness is that they have to get to you to do dmg. If you're in a pinch in a 1v1 why not just run away? And the Mana thing is part of why some champs just don't have Mana (it helps their kit from a design PoV) ... so when you face someone with out Mana and you're OOM you should take that into account.

Anyway, their counterplay is such that I don't think they're a problem at all. If you know how to kite you will mess them up. If you're fast enough to run away they wont get to you.

Its really hard to kite swifties+dead mans plate+ garens charge MS boost+black cleaver.

I am just saying.

Gigahappytown1 votes

Morde and skarner were trainrwrecks

darius is balanced

garen has too much synergy with armor pen and movespeed he has absolutey insane base damage and innate tankyness so all he needs is armor pen and movespeed and hes unstumpable

Yosuke Apperu1 votes

I'm curious.. am I being downvoted for being truthful?

Axests1 votes

juggernauts were designed to be powerhouses limited by their lack of mobility, relying on movespeed and cc from their team to get on people. You aren't supposed to be able to 1v1 a juggernaut, and Garen specifically was designed as an anti-snowball juggernaut. Considering that garen,skarner, and morde are considered on the weaker side of picks right now i don't think there's an argument for them being too strong. Even darius who does better than them is still not at the top of his class.

Yosuke Apperu1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Feed My Cat Plz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LrRge6Yg,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2016-03-11T20:32:28.631+0000)

juggernauts were designed to be powerhouses limited by their lack of mobility, relying on movespeed and cc from their team to get on people. You aren't supposed to be able to 1v1 a juggernaut, and Garen specifically was designed as an anti-snowball juggernaut. Considering that garen,skarner, and morde are considered on the weaker side of picks right now i don't think there's an argument for them being too strong. Even darius who does better than them is still not at the top of his class.

"anti-snowball juggernaut" sounds horrendous for balance.

Abyssphere1 votes

{quoted}

"anti-snowball juggernaut" sounds horrendous for balance.

Why, specifically?

corals1 votes

Maybe because if the champion that is snowballing is say, Leblanc, zed, ekko, vayne, ahri, Kalista... The list goes on. The Juggernaut would have to have over 500 move speed to really function in that role even a little. A champion that probably does anti-snowball better is poppy.

Just my 2 cents, could be wrong.

Abyssphere1 votes

{quoted}

Maybe because if the champion that is snowballing is say, Leblanc, zed, ekko, vayne, ahri, Kalista... The list goes on. The Juggernaut would have to have over 500 move speed to really function in that role even a little. A champion that probably does anti-snowball better is poppy.

Just my 2 cents, could be wrong.

I think the thing there is that you're not supposed to pick Garen into just anyone with snowball potential. He's more about shutting down carrying mages and ADCs than mobile classes like assassins. Against targets that aren't necessarily easy to catch, you can pick Garen if you're giving him a team that can help him close the gap (e.g. a Lulu would help a lot against that Kalista or Lucian). That's a good strategic identity if you ask me - pick him into a team that's likely to rely on one person doing most of the work and Garen will do well, as long as you support him adequately and the carry on the enemy team isn't insanely safe. I can't see anything toxic about that.

corals1 votes

I would agree with this. Maybe the frustration that people are feeling with Juggernauts is that their usefulness as picks is deceptively limited. For example some of the situations that old Garen was useful for are no longer good match ups for him. If these champs only really show there strength when they are picked into or against specific team comps, then a lot of players may just pick them when they want to and then feel weak as they play them. Not necessarily because they are weak champions or have under-tuned kits, but because the in game situation is bad for them.

As a side note I suspect juggernauts didn't wear well into season 6. Champs have been faster then the last season for awhile, and many non-juggernauts have been thriving with juggernaut itemization, pushing them out of usefulness. As movement speed items get nerfed, and champions like yi and fiora get pushed away from tank builds through scaling adjustments, maybe their usefulness will puck up again.

AlwaysByMySide1 votes

{quoted}

I just went against a garen as hecarim...

This was your first mistake.

Try playing champions that aren't weak.

Yosuke Apperu1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Memeglaive Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LrRge6Yg,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2016-03-11T22:02:06.897+0000)

This was your first mistake.

Try playing champions that aren't weak.

being 3/0 with an exp and cs advantage shouldnt let you be so easily tower dove by any champion.. if they buff hecarim people scream op the moment he sees any popularity..

corals1 votes

Well the other champions that are jugernauts, illao and nasus are also borderline op. I think weird balance might just be a juggernaut thing. With Skarner needing more thematic love then balance love I think. Maybe the opposite is true for Morde? His thematic seems ok, his balance seems on the weak side.

9L9L9L9L9L9L9L1 votes

Isn't Garen the most balanced juggernaut out of the 4, and poor ol' Mordekaiser rotting away in Riot's dumpster

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