Soo, someone suggested to nerf zeds defensive stats..

Yosuke Apperu·May 27, 2016·409 votes·11,305 views

This got me curious and so I decided to compare zed's defensive stats to my favorite energy user who is none other than shen! Please take a look at this as it's rather ridiculous.

Zed's roles: Assassin/ Fighter Hp 1-18 : 579 -- 1939 Armor 1-18: 26.9 -- 86.4 Let's compare this to Shen shall we.. Shen's roles : Tank/FIghter HP 1-18: 540 -- 1781.. Less than level 1 zed and about 150 less than lvl 18 zed Armor 1-18: 25.0 – 69.2.. Less than level 1 zed and almost 20 less than level 18 zed...

WHY Is an assassin tankier through base stats alone than a damn tank?!

Come to think of it.. why is shen the squishiest of all the energy users when he's the only one who is listed as a tank?

Edit: If you down vote me that's fine, but at least tell me why? It's not like it's my opinion that shen is the squishiest of the energy users.. it's a damn fact lol I got my numbers from the lol champion wiki.

262 Comments

AbyssphereMay 27, 201656 votes

I don't know why this is presented as a Zed thread. It's entirely a Shen thread.

Zed lvl 18 HP: 1939 Zed lvl 18 AR: 86.4 Zed lvl 18 HP5: 18.1

Akali lvl 18 HP: 2033 Akali lvl 18 AR: 85.9 Akali lvl 18 HP5: 19.4

Shaco lvl 18 HP: 2010 Shaco lvl 18 AR: 84.4 Shaco lvl 18 HP5: 17.7

Talon lvl 18 HP: 2028 Talon lvl 18 AR: 86.4 Talon lvl 18 HP5: 21.3

Katarina lvl 18 HP: 1921 Katarina lvl 18 AR: 86.4 Katarina lvl 18 HP5: 13.9

As you can see, Zed is at best average in the melee assassin tankiness stakes. He beats Kat, just about, but in general cannot be called exceptionally tanky. Let's look at some tanks:

Shen lvl 18 HP: 1781 Shen lvl 18 AR: 69.2 Shen lvl 18 HP5: 22.8

Malphite lvl 18 HP: 2104 Malphite lvl 18 AR: 92.1 Malphite lvl 18 HP5: 16.4

Maokai lvl 18 HP: 2102 Maokai lvl 18 AR: 96.7 Maokai lvl 18 HP5: 23.1

Hecarim lvl 18 HP: 2111 Hecarim lvl 18 AR: 94.7 Hecarim lvl 18 HP5: 19.8

As you can see here, every tank I've listed except Shen is actually tankier than every assassin listed above. Shen is a gross exception in these stakes because his kit has the second strongest tank steroid in the entire game (temporary immunity to ADC damage, essentially) as well as a constantly refreshing shield for over 14% of his max HP. The most important thing to note here is that Shen is balanced around having poor base stats. It is not worth complaining about a champion having crappy base HP or armour when they're strong despite it because power would need to be taken from elsewhere if it was gonna be buffed.

The comparison in this thread is woeful. Of course Zed looks unnaturally tanky when you compare him to the squishiest melee character in the game by far, who is in general one of the squishiest champions in the game. Most ranged champions look excessively tanky compared to Shen, but I wouldn't make a "Wtf, Elise is way tankier than Shen!" thread.

SalronMay 27, 201615 votes

Stop trying to make sense of things You're not complaining about Zed, therefore your comment will not get the attention it deserves. This boards is really great isn't it.

AbyssphereMay 28, 20165 votes

I can't even fathom why your comment has downvotes. It's as if the Zed haters felt self-conscious and decided to downvote you to make you go away.

SalronMay 28, 20164 votes

It's probably my comment + The Yasuo icon

TTUPhoenixMay 27, 201618 votes

Meanwhile Alistar rockin' that 2400 base hp at level 18.

RossendaleMay 27, 201634 votes

The reason Shen has low defensive stats is because he gets HP scaling shields every 10 seconds tied with an AoE dodge.

Yosuke ApperuMay 27, 201621 votes

{quoted}

The reason Shen has low defensive stats is because he gets HP scaling shields every 10 seconds tied with an AoE dodge.

It scales with bonus hp, buffing his base stats wouldn't buff his shield at all. His dodge is good, but it only really hard counters people who rely on auto attack modifiers. I've found him to counter rengar decently but it does nothing for him if they have any sort of reliable ranged harass. This also still serves no justification to zed being that tanky through base stats. A lot of assassins are and it's really stupid.

AbyssphereMay 27, 20162 votes

Zed's tankiness is nothing special. This comparison is entirely down to Shen being extremely squishy for a melee champion through his base stats. And that's not a problem because Shen is perfectly balanced with his poor base stats taken into account.

Yosuke ApperuMay 27, 201620 votes

{quoted}

Zed's tankiness is nothing special. This comparison is entirely down to Shen being extremely squishy for a melee champion through his base stats. And that's not a problem because Shen is perfectly balanced with his poor base stats taken into account.

A tank should still not be squishier than an assassin lol. Chances are the shen players are more skilled than the zed players :P

Mecha MaIphiteMay 27, 20162 votes

Shen is not squishy. His shield and his W more than make up for the measly 150 hp and 17 armor Zed has over him.

Dextix LTMay 27, 201611 votes

They really dont. His w is situational, it counter only aa based abilities, and many champions are not reliant on them. And his shield is not spammable while also being quite weak.

Zed as an assasin SHOULD have shit defence stats. Assasins are glass cannons. The fact that zed has more defence base stats than shen who is a tank is bullshit.

INoble KnightIMay 27, 20168 votes

Don't forget that Zeds usually build shit like item 3139 item 3071 item 3156

Mandang0May 27, 2016145 votes

This argument's always seemed a bit unfair to me.

Shen's giving up one of his skills for that shield (and another for the dodge), why should he be punished for it? Is Zed given very low AD and movespeed because he has an abundance of those in his spells?

Voluug13May 27, 201681 votes

This is too logical for Riot.

RockmanMay 27, 20163 votes

{quoted}

This argument's always seemed a bit unfair to me.

Shen's giving up one of his skills for that shield (and another for the dodge), why should he be punished for it? Is Zed given very low AD and movespeed because he has an abundance of those in his spells?

Because we balance the game around Stats+Skills. If you just balanced stats around what role they were supposed to be you're gonna have a large amount of problems with champions kits. For example, the only tanking skill Amumu has is his E reducing basic attack damage by a flat amount. Do you think he should have the same stats as Shen?

Mandang0May 27, 201629 votes

You're implying Shen has the same damage output and CC that Amumu has, which isn't true. If you want to balance around skills, fine, but then I'd expect Shen to have more offense stats than Amumu. A tank's job isn't just soaking damage...

Honestly, I think this notion of balancing champions' stats around their spells is ridiculous, like when Veigar was given the worst base mana regen in the game simply because his passive was +% mana regen. Sure, his mana regen looks balanced when you're done, but now you've created a champion without a passive. If Shen's dependent on his spells to break even in defense with other tanks, then he's short those spells compared to them.

Lastly, I don't think Riot does this very consistently. Are Zed's base stats at all adjusted for the abundance of damage and ability in his spells?

RockmanMay 27, 20161 votes

{quoted}

You're implying Shen has the same damage output and CC that Amumu has, which isn't true. If you want to balance around skills, fine, but then I'd expect Shen to have more offense stats than Amumu. A tank's job isn't just soaking damage...

No, its to generate threat so they are forced to attack you. Shen survives better so guess what? he has worse stats then other tanks.

Honestly, I think this notion of balancing champions' stats around their spells is ridiculous, like when Veigar was given the worst base mana regen in the game simply because his passive was +% mana regen. Sure, his mana regen looks balanced when you're said and done, but now you've created a champion without a passive. If Shen's dependent on his spells to break even in defense with other tanks, then he's short those spells compared to them.

That's Riots design philosophy. They want skills to feel good. Your example was built around him building Chalice. Guess what? You aren't running out of mana anymore. But just having a skill thats good by itself when it concerns things like stats? You're just asking for trouble.

Lastly, I don't think Riot does this very consistently. Are Zed's base stats at all adjusted for the abundance of damage and ability in his spells?

Can you point out where you think they aren't?

Mandang0May 27, 201613 votes

"Generate threat" - And with less damage than Amumu, Shen does this less well than Amumu. Anyway, my point wasn't that you had picked the wrong trait of a tank, it's that I think you're oversimplifying the comparison between two such tanks by focusing solely on their durability.

You can make skills feel as good as you want, it's independent of what you do with base stats. I actually just explained how such a design philosophy led to Veigar having a bad-feeling skill (his passive). And, no, the +% mana regen was his old passive. Chalice was nowhere mentioned, nor was it in the scenario I described.

Zed's movespeed is 345. This is still higher than the average movespeed, despite Zed also having more mobility in his kit than the average champ.

RockmanMay 27, 20162 votes

{quoted}

"Generate threat" - And with less damage than Amumu, Shen does this less well than Amumu. Anyway, my point wasn't that you had picked the wrong trait of a tank, it's that I think you're oversimplifying the comparison between two such tanks by focusing solely on their durability.

People are oversimplifying it by doing it for Zed vs Shen. Why shouldn't I?

You can make skills feel as good as you want, it's independent of what you do with base stats. I actually just explained how such a design philosophy led to Veigar having a bad-feeling skill (his passive). And, no, the +% mana regen was his old passive. Chalice was nowhere mentioned, nor was it in the scenario I described.

It was balanced around him building chalice. Now if you wanna argue that it shouldn't have been balanced around building chalice thats fine! But Riot's design philosophies do change unlike what people think, so Veigar doesn't have that passive anymore.

Zed's movespeed is 345. This is still higher than the average movespeed, despite Zed also having more mobility in his kit than the average champ.

Talon has 350. Pantheon has 355. Yi has 355. Khazix has 350.

So I would say if you put less mobility on Zed's kit, he'd easily get 350.

For a quick example so you don't think its an isolated incident, Riven has 340.

DessemMay 27, 201617 votes

So I would say if you put less mobility on Zed's kit, he'd easily get 350.

LeBlanc has 335 movement speed.

Anivia has 320 movement speed.

Twisted Fate has 330 movement speed.

Annie has 335 movement speed.

Mordekaiser has 325 movement speed.

Where's the justice? item 3070

RockmanMay 27, 20162 votes

{quoted}

LeBlanc has 335 movement speed.

Anivia has 320 movement speed.

Twisted Fate has 330 movement speed.

Annie has 335 movement speed.

Mordekaiser has 325 movement speed.

Where's the justice?

Malz and Xerath have 340 btw

DessemMay 27, 201614 votes

That's not how cherrypicking arguments works.

DessemMay 27, 20167 votes

when Veigar was given the worst base mana regen in the game simply because his passive was +% mana regen.

He was also given high mana costs to pay for the passive. In essence, in the Veigar case he was nerfed to avoid getting a lot of benefit out of the passive. This was luckily changed, and it's good to avoid these kind of cases.

In the case of Sion though, for example, his base HP is quite lower (200 lower than Zed at level 18) in order to compensate for the fact that he'll be able to get that HP through 100 CS, and then grow beyond it. His lower base HP compensates for his infinite scaling HP.

Consistence is key, though. There's a number of very safe champions with high base stats (hi LeBlanc), who don't seem to pay for their mobility in a meaningful way.

SpoofghoulMay 27, 201631 votes

yea i feel you bro

as a sion main i hate being so damn squishy

i mean eventually i get tanky but i have to farm my ass off for it only to be on par with other tanks like ok so if i do well im rewarded with mediocracy and if i dont im fucked ok :S

shen is kind of similar gives up shit for this defensive abilities then because he has those he gets his base stats gutted feels so much like sion to me

another example would be lissandra having weak af manaregen because of her passive but because she has that passive they gave her ludicrous manacosts

its like here you are weak af and punched in both nuts but we only got 1 band aid soooo one's gonna stay bloody

CrettMay 27, 201622 votes

AGREED... On SIOn.... SPENDING THE FIRST HALF THE GAME JUST catching up to other tank's bas HP.. WHAT IS up???WITHTHAT???

At least his health regen is among the highest.

SpoofghoulMay 27, 20165 votes

yea thank god for the hp regen allows me to stack tanky hp regen items x'D

Toru ItaiMay 28, 20162 votes

As a pre-rework Sion main, i hate that he's considered a tank now #StillMad

xxxDogmanxxxMay 29, 20162 votes

Dude, its been two years. Take anger management.

Vistha KaiMay 27, 201611 votes

Because Sion.

His base stats are so shitty, because he has "infinite" health scaling, which takes whole game just to catch up to your average tank. For example it'd require 320 minion kills (cannons not included) for Sion to even out with Alistar, who has 70% damage reduction and heal build-in his kit.

Now, the question is, why Veigar doesn't start the game with -200 AP or have AP from items reduced by 25%? That's the same thing.

DJ S0NAMay 27, 201618 votes

Let's compare it to Mordekaiser:

HP 1-18: 525 – 1766 (What the fuck)

Armor 1-18: 20.0 – 83.8 (Dude with a fucking armor has less armor than a Ninja)

What the hell Riot?

Darkslayer85May 27, 201610 votes

He is ADC now dude pls

WyrmbladeMay 28, 20165 votes

Mordekaiser is not, and will never be, an adc.

ÇhåryzårdMay 27, 20165 votes

[{quoted}](name=DJ Sona,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Giuygh23,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2016-05-27T21:42:54.698+0000)

Let's compare it to Mordekaiser:

HP 1-18: 525 – 1766 (What the fuck)

Armor 1-18: 20.0 – 83.8 (Dude with a fucking armor has less armor than a Ninja)

What the hell Riot?

It's funny because Morde is wearing a giant thick suit of armor and Zed has a few pieces here and there but definitely not as much as Morde

Logic

BTpeto TantrumMay 27, 20169 votes

Zed is an assassin, he doesn't build defensive. Shen is a tank, he builds nothing but defensive. If Shen had higher base armor and everything then he could just build damage like Zed does. Zed has slightly more cause you aren't supposed to build him to tank the entire team.

MissMikasaMay 27, 20169 votes

Well where you are wrong is a lot of Zed players are building him tanky- which he should never be built that way. The rare chance he actually gets into my game without being banned, I see people build Sterak's, Black Cleaver, and what not on him. So yea a Zed building defensive on top of his already high stats is atrocious.

Yosuke ApperuMay 27, 20168 votes

{quoted}

Well where you are wrong is a lot of Zed players are building him tanky- which he should never be built that way. The rare chance he actually gets into my game without being banned, I see people build Sterak's, Black Cleaver, and what not on him. So yea a Zed building defensive on top of his already high stats is atrocious.

This is a good point, due to his literally free bonus ad from living shadow.. he gets more ad for building less. Granted it is bonus ad however it's not hard at all to achieve 100+ bonus ad while still being tanky which is atleast 20 additional ad... for no reason.

Yosuke ApperuMay 27, 201623 votes

[{quoted}](name=Instinct Zed,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Giuygh23,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-05-27T17:40:13.120+0000)

Zed is an assassin, he doesn't build defensive. Shen is a tank, he builds nothing but defensive. If Shen had higher base armor and everything then he could just build damage like Zed does. Zed has slightly more cause you aren't supposed to build him to tank the entire team.

Shen wouldn't be able to just build damage because he has no scalings worth building into.. lol.

BTpeto TantrumMay 27, 20162 votes

Remember AP Shen? Since his rework it is a lot different, but it does still work.

Yosuke ApperuMay 27, 201616 votes

[{quoted}](name=Instinct Zed,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Giuygh23,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2016-05-27T18:00:02.077+0000)

Remember AP Shen? Since his rework it is a lot different, but it does still work.

But it doesn't... your shield scales off of only health, and the ratio to getting bonus damage from your q is 100AP = 1.5%. You have nice scaling on your ulti shield and that's it. Ap shen used to be a thing because literally everything you had aside from ki strike passive scaled off of AP.

The DeckownerMay 27, 201613 votes

"you don't build defensive therefore you need high base defensive stat."

nice zed main logic.

AbyssphereMay 27, 20164 votes

It's actually sound logic. A LOT of champions build squishy only because their base stats afford them to do so and when champions don't have the natural tankiness they need they will often go into tanky items in order to survive. Elise for example wants to be in melee form a lot but has ranged tank stats so she builds very tanky as otherwise she wouldn't survive. If she was as tanky as a real melee champion she could afford to build more squishy.

Champion builds heavily depend on base stats. The guy is incorrect in his discussion of Shen (Shen isn't squishy because he's a tank, it's because his tankiness is supposed to come from his kit), but it's generally true that champions expected to build squishy need good base stats to do so and if you want to encourage someone not to build tanky you will often need to give them the tankiness they need to work with in their base stats.

The DeckownerMay 27, 20164 votes

by yout logic, "tanks need high base offensive stats because they don't build dmg" is logical too?

Seriously you guys are talking about the most ridiculous things.

AbyssphereMay 28, 20164 votes

... but tanks do get high base offensive stats.

Zed lvl 18 AD: 113 (melee damage dealer) Jinx lvl 18 AD: 99 (ranged physical damage dealer) Syndra lvl 18 AD: 103 (ranged magic damage dealer)

Let's look at some tanks:

Malphite lvl 18 AD: 119 Maokai lvl 18 AD: 120 Skarner lvl 18 AD: 134 Amumu lvl 18 AD: 118

Tanky melees have the best AD in the game across the board because they won't be buying any damage. Their high base AD gives them the breathing room they need to stack the tankiness they want. Damage dealers do need decent defensive stats to do their job though, which is evident from a variety of examples. Aatrox doesn't function because he's too squishy to build the damage he needs to be relevant, Evelynn builds super tanky because she melts if she doesn't and Elise builds tank because despite wanting to function as an assassin in melee form, she can't realistically jump into a fight as a squishy damage dealer because her ranged base stats don't allow her to.

It is typically the case that base stats are aggressively tuned towards the type of stat a particular melee champion doesn't build (tanks have high AD, melee assassins are surprisingly tanky). When this isn't the case, the champions in question tend to struggle.

JariMay 28, 20163 votes

Zed gets a 20% AD bonus from items.

I'm pretty sure it'd be easy to bypass those tanks with the bonus being added alone.

Also, this thread is about Shen having worse stats than Zed, and with the ad tank argument here, then WHY does Shen only have 111 when Zed gets 113, as well as Zed having better defensive stats? It's literally a punch in the face.

Only Play DariusMay 27, 20166 votes

Because they want Shen to be building tank. It's similar with Tryndamere and Yi, who they want to be building glass and so they give them some of the highest base stats in the game

Yosuke ApperuMay 27, 201623 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Giuygh23,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-05-27T18:49:38.059+0000)

Because they want Shen to be building tank. It's similar with Tryndamere and Yi, who they want to be building glass and so they give them some of the highest base stats in the game

See, I get this I really do, but in my comparison to zed 150 health that zed has over shen = 400 gold. Zed's armor is about 17 higher than shen's as well which equals out to about 340. So shen is down 740 gold in stats he needs just to break even with zed. Meanwhile someone had said how it's justified because zed has less ad than shen since he will be building it. Zed's ad is 5 less at the beginning of the game which is equal to 180 gold, while at level 18 he once again surpasses shen. There is no justification in saying he's gonna build that anyways when he has to spend gold JUST to break even in defensive stats. Tanks should be tankier in base stats alone than assassins, not be behind them because they have to spend gold just to break even.

Ayame IsakiMay 27, 20161 votes

You need to look at Shen's offensive stats and MR as well to get the full picture and compare them to Zed. I don't have the numbers available, but if Shen has more than Zed in terms of base offensive stats, then it may even out.

Yosuke ApperuMay 28, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ayame Isaki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Giuygh23,comment-id=000200000001,timestamp=2016-05-27T20:09:06.275+0000)

You need to look at Shen's offensive stats and MR as well to get the full picture and compare them to Zed. I don't have the numbers available, but if Shen has more than Zed in terms of base offensive stats, then it may even out.

Shen is up 5 ad from zed at level 1. At level 18 zed passes him. Also they both have scaling MR

Phoenix Kotori May 28, 20163 votes

While you're not wrong, you did overlook the most important defensive stat for laning, Health regen. Which Shen does beat Zed at both level 1 & 18.

Yosuke ApperuMay 28, 20168 votes

[{quoted}](name=Quinn of Yuri,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Giuygh23,comment-id=0027,timestamp=2016-05-28T09:17:04.015+0000)

While you're not wrong, you did overlook the most important defensive stat for laning, Health regen. Which Shen does beat Zed at both level 1 & 18.

You are correct on this. There is a difference yes, but not 700 gold in stats worth of difference. Health regen per point has a gold value of around 36. At level 18 shen is still at most 136 gold in health regen over zed. However but this still puts him behind zed 564 gold.