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whelp. looks like bruiser/tank itemization got trashed

Critmaster Garen··3 votes·446 views

sunfire, randuins, dead mans nerfed all around except for a slight armor increase.

as long as item 3035 exists and doesnt get any changes with the update, the armor increase means nothing, and a total net loss in effectiveness on the items.

sunfire cape deals 0 damage until lategame where it is irrelevant anyways. especially since now everyone gets scaling mr per level.

randuins loses its crit damage reduction and loses slow time. pretty much the only reasons youd even want the item was the crit damage reduction.

dead mans loses damage on its passive. i dont know why it was even touched at all tbh. since it was only a situational item for tanks and its mainly designed as a fighter item thats mostly bought by fighters.

all 3 items are nerfed by almost 100 health for a 10 armor increase (so about 5 with last whisper and masteries).

i really hope there is going to be somthing coming that compensates for those massive nerfs.

11 Comments

Paroe2 votes

@thead No... Just tanks. True tanks, the ones without innate waveclear and who have high mana costs are the ones who suffer with these changes.

Bruisers? item 3071 item 3026 item 3047 item 3068 item 3001 item 3065. Theyre even more powerful now, as they have MORE AD. Less MR, but more AD.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

@thead No... Just tanks. True tanks, the ones without innate waveclear and who have high mana costs are the ones who suffer with these changes.

Bruisers? item 3071 item 3026 item 3047 item 3068 item 3001 item 3065. Theyre even more powerful now, as they have MORE AD. Less MR, but more AD.

juggernauts are designed to scale with health. so this change will hurt them badly.

most fighters except shyvana dont deal enough magic damage to be even interested in the changed abyssal scepter.

sunfire cape fucking sucks all around except as a waveclear tool. its changed to be a lategame only item, while even squishies are getting scaling mr/lvl now which will make the damage on sunfire entirely irrelevant lategame.

Paroe1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LqEv0W24,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-04-07T09:00:49.351+0000)

juggernauts are designed to scale with health. so this change will hurt them badly.

most fighters except shyvana dont deal enough magic damage to be even interested in the changed abyssal scepter.

sunfire cape fucking sucks all around except as a waveclear tool. its changed to be a lategame only item, while even squishies are getting scaling mr/lvl now which will make the damage on sunfire entirely irrelevant lategame.

... Juggernauts are a kind of bruiser. They just want less AD and a little bit of resistances. Fighters, Juggs, and bruisers are NOT tanks. Thats a problem people have; just because you can BUILD as a tank, doesnt MEAN you are designed to BE a tank. If riot removed the "secondary" role and just used "desired stats", there would be less confusion as to what is or is not a tank.

Okay let me break something down for you (in order of desired stats); Tanks: RESISTANCES/HP Fighters: AD/HP Bruisers: HP/AD Juggernauts: HP/resistances/ad

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

... Juggernauts are a kind of bruiser. They just want less AD and a little bit of resistances. Fighters, Juggs, and bruisers are NOT tanks. Thats a problem people have; just because you can BUILD as a tank, doesnt MEAN you are designed to BE a tank. If riot removed the "secondary" role and just used "desired stats", there would be less confusion as to what is or is not a tank.

Okay let me break something down for you (in order of desired stats); Tanks: RESISTANCES/HP Fighters: AD/HP Bruisers: HP/AD Juggernauts: HP/resistances/ad

ok, lets just stick to riots definition of fighters and categorize them by divers and juggernauts to avoid confusion.

with divers youd be correct, theyre designed to build a mix of resistances/health and ad. more leaning towards being squishier than juggernauts and beefier than skirmishers.

juggernauts are designed to lean far more towards 4 and 5 item defensive builds than dive fighters. the juggernauts in specific have been changed with their class update to focus heavily on health as a defensive stat.

their identity is that of lategame raid bosses who end up with 4k health builds and around 250 ad (that was the goal the designers set back then).

i mean think of champions like Darius who has his q scaling with % missing health and relies on high health builds. the same goes for most other juggernauts. be it Garen or Shyvana who are supposed to scale with health off their inbuilt defensive steroids/passive resistance bonuses.

the the massive nerf of health on items throughout season 6 because of bruiser assassins and bruiser adc like graves abusing their items, and now another sweep of large health nerfs on the defensive items that they share with tanks, this really cuts heavily into their effectiveness.

if theyre making health a less reliable defensive stat on tanks, they need to compensate juggernauts in SOME way for the health that theyre losing on the items theyre sharing with them.

LongHair Fox1 votes

It has already been confirmed that LW will get changes. Those are just not on the pbe yet.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

[{quoted}](name=LongHair Fox,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LqEv0W24,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-04-07T08:51:45.018+0000)

It has already been confirmed that LW will get changes. Those are just not on the pbe yet.

thank goodness, because thats downright stupid.

im still salty about them nerfing health across the board once again, when they made juggernauts specifically scale with health.

since their rework, how much health did they take off their builds now? they already took like 300 to 400 health off over a full build throughout season 6 by nerfing their items and masteries in the era of bruiser assassins/adc. now their builds are going to lose almost another 300 health.

LongHair Fox1 votes

BC has however gotten some health back recently. I know it sucks but so did the sunfire cape rushes against maokai and nautilus which was only possible because is gave a lot of health. Also some of the juggernauts will love the gargoyle stoneplate or whatever... the one that gives % extra health in a short window since it allows them to set up their stuff like darius bleeds. I also think that you will become more tanky against what you build against with the new changes, you just lose a bit of tankiness against the other type of damage.

We will have to see how much they change LW but there might still be problems since they will not change BC in the first round.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

[{quoted}](name=LongHair Fox,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LqEv0W24,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2017-04-07T10:10:25.212+0000)

BC has however gotten some health back recently. I know it sucks but so did the sunfire cape rushes against maokai and nautilus which was only possible because is gave a lot of health. Also some of the juggernauts will love the gargoyle stoneplate or whatever... the one that gives % extra health in a short window since it allows them to set up their stuff like darius bleeds. I also think that you will become more tanky against what you build against with the new changes, you just lose a bit of tankiness against the other type of damage.

We will have to see how much they change LW but there might still be problems since they will not change BC in the first round.

as far as im reading, the stoneplate reduces the damage youre dealing during that window.

means its complete trash for juggernauts, except for maybe darius to get extra time to apply his bleed.

a 100 health increase on cleaver does not compensate for a 600 to 700 health loss on other items. riot is doing it once again. in their class update theyre focusing on a bunch of champions they want to change and completely disregard the impact it has on other champions who are SUPPOSED to buy the same items.

this is honestly their largest issue when it comes to balance changes in general. they improve the champion theyre trying to improve by touching their items but at the same time theyre ignoring what effect the changes have on other champions.

LongHair Fox1 votes

It is not nearly 600 to 700 health but ok fair enough.. not gonna argue with you on that. I do not think juggernauts get hit hard enough here that individual balance changes cant fix them. The updates are not meant to bring more balance immediately anyway. It is meant to make the whole class more balancable.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

[{quoted}](name=LongHair Fox,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LqEv0W24,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-04-07T11:22:22.713+0000)

It is not nearly 600 to 700 health but ok fair enough.. not gonna argue with you on that. I do not think juggernauts get hit hard enough here that individual balance changes cant fix them. The updates are not meant to bring more balance immediately anyway. It is meant to make the whole class more balancable.

in season 6 they cut off

  • 100 health off steraks.
  • 100 health off dead mans plate.
  • about 120 health off veteran scars at 4k health compared to the flat value.
  • the jungling juggernauts lost 300 health from the strength of the ages removal
  • 200 health off banshees veil (this one is going to carry over with the stat swap with abyssal)
  • 50 health off warmogs

no matter how you look at it. most juggernauts lost about 300 health back then when they just built 2 of these items (of which 2 on that list are core items for them), potentially more if they were junglers or wanted items like bveil as situational purchase.

this was also in every case a double nerf on item 3053 which is supposed to be a core item for them and scales with total health on its passive.

now theyre doing another sweep of health nerfs on items that theyre sharing with tanks, and it will add up to around 400 to 700 health nerf in total with the previous nerfs.

yes, it is actually THAT bad. the one health increase on cleaver wasnt even a health buff. it was just a revert of the health nerf at the start of season 6.

they reverted the cleaver recipe after they cut off 100 health from the item in preseason 6 with the marksmen update.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Riot needs to drop their double standards for the sake of the game, it's no wonder it's devolved into a boring burst meta.

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