Veigar's ult

LegitBacon66·Mar 8, 2016·36 votes·2,288 views

I think it should do 80% more damage to champions with AD.

35 Comments

DeloricVIMar 8, 201611 votes

Don't worry, as a Veigar main I understand your pain. But, hopefully the mid season mage update will come with better itemization for mages.

Just hang in there and hope.

TheOvermindMar 8, 20162 votes

it's not just items though ! Veigar's been left in the dust eveer since his rise in popularity at the end of season 5. Veigar is this champion that if farmed or fed will destroy but if behind he wont do much . His laneing phase is absolute rubbish, just q farmming no interaction with opponent what so ever. I made a post about this recdently, what i proposed they make his q a targeted ability once more, but u can only stack AP by last hitting siege minions, but theygive 10 AP.

DeloricVIMar 8, 20166 votes

I think that's a little excessive; also his q does have some poke potential, and against someone who's trying to engage, you can always back off and throw down a dark matter. Not to mention that his old Event Horizon was one of those moves that was straight up cheese, and I think this change is what a lot of people don't like about him still. His e's delay removes his ability to use his only cc in order to defend himself against these very quick assassins (kat with shunpo, talon with cutthroat, Zed's death mark, you know what I mean).

Like I said, he would be a good spot if mages in general were in a good spot. He just needs some kind of option to make it so that he doesn't get instantly destroyed when someone tower dives him, and Zhonia's is way too slow to build to this end.

AlüeMar 8, 20161 votes

Wouldn't that be more of a nerf? two waves for every cannon minion. Suggesting that a player hits every minion thats a total of 14 ap he can equivalently obtain. Not to mention he also has the potential of missing out on the cannon minion overall due to backing out and so on.

TheOvermindMar 8, 20161 votes

dunno in what elo u r allowed to last hit every minion with q on veigar. When i play veigar im csing under tower with w for wavclear.

KaxiMar 8, 20162 votes

{quoted}

dunno in what elo u r allowed to last hit every minion with q on veigar. When i play veigar im csing under tower with w for wavclear.

45% CDR and AA setups are a wonderful thing, even under tower.

DeloricVIMar 8, 20161 votes

I meant the change would be an excessive tweak to his kit, even if it were more balanced. It changes his identity in a way that would be just crazy different from what he is now. A little closer to what he used to be, but still a crazy out-of-nowhere change.

AlüeMar 8, 20161 votes

True, however not like riot hasn't done it before.... Mordekaiser Xerath rip the old playstyles

DeloricVIMar 8, 20161 votes

You have to admit, these champions did have some issues for Riot to need to change them... Hell, I recently saw a thread about why Morde is pretty much doomed to a permanent status of mediocrity because his kit just has some fundamental things wrong with it.

I don't know how Xerath used to play, tbh, although apparently it had something to do with empowering spells... well after his rework one of his spells still listed its empowerment bonus... I think it's gone now, but I believe it was on like either eye of destruction or shocking orb that used to still talk about the "Empowered bonus," long after he had been reworked, and I remember it really confusing me back in the day. XD

Also, the one everyone forgets:

Sion item 3070

I love his new rework, but whenever someone talks about Sion, they cry because they want the old Sion back... even though he had some really glaring problems (I mean, really, no one knew what to build on him, he had some crazy AD scaling, and some equally crazy AP scaling, but nothing that would really make hybrid Sion viable, and the scalings were on different abilities. Overall, he was a mess with a pick/ban rate like Urgot).

AlüeMar 8, 20161 votes

Granted they did require change as the meta changed, xerath was unique in the essence he was an immobile turrent that had a built in mr reduction with his stance. Personally i loved the fact he was a siege champion (as we have very few true siege champions left). However in this current meta he wouldn't have been able to survive with the current ms and all the gap closers.

TheOvermindMar 8, 20161 votes

i dont think that is excessive. Q being targeted makes veigar more interactive in lane and more fun to play as and against. But he misses out on AP from q last hits so i bumped up the bonus to +10 vs canons , but he can no longer get AP from other minions. I definitely agree with you about his event horizon (E) though, that shitt was so broken that made veigar a viable support. It lacked a lot of counter play. Im glad it s the way it is now, even thogh it is painfuly hard to use offensively by yourself and very unreliable to use defensively

DeloricVIMar 8, 20161 votes

It's more excessive because it's not necessary, and the ammount of change to his kit is a bit much. The whole point of changing Veigar's q is to give him more options and counterplay. His ult was a lot like another Q with different scaling before, but now his Q is a more effective farming tool, and can hit more enemies in teamfights, which addresses some problems that Veigar has in the mid-late game, and that's spreading his damage out or continuing to do damage after they hyper carries are dead.

Not to mention, his old Q felt unfair, because a mage has about three ways to avoid getting killed. 1)Flat out killing your opponent, 2) Zhonia's, and 3) dodging. You have a few items that take the edge off the burst damage, but that isn't all that much in lines of defense. Back in the day, Veigar would never really miss. If you were low, his q was going to take out out for some stacks. His ult is already single target, and I think that's plenty.

EcchiOtakuTMMar 8, 20163 votes

I mean if veigar didn't farm RAW AP I could suggest something but since it's raw ap he farms I can't suggest something like I would for nasus. Plus veigar is pretty much a setup god who has huge benefit to teamfights and siege comps.

And changing Q to targeted would gut vei's poke and limiting farm to siege only means it'll gut his AP gain.

Veigar's kit is fine atm if anything it could be buffed for the E's delay to be shorter but aside from that it's great.

Troll for TrumpMar 8, 20161 votes

Gotta wait for that Assassin update comin..

ArakadiaMar 9, 20161 votes

I thought he did enough damage, but maybe that's Cruz I play a lot of AP in mid.

DeloricVIMar 9, 20161 votes

Well, it's not really about Damage. Veigar brings that. But with most mids he doesn't stack up because 1) AD assassins have more item options to deal with an AP mid, where Veigar has one that specifically counters AD assassins. 2) His lack of consistent cc gives assassins a huge advantage, because diving in is much less risky than diving or engaging on someone like Lux or Annie. 3) He is a late game champion in an early-mid game champion meta. If you look at his statistics, his win rate skyrockets at about the 35 minute mark, past the average rates of mid laners across the board.

And in this devourer/rageblade meta that focuses on people that can shred towers easy and end games faster... Veigar is at an inherent disadvantage, not to mention that AD champions don't feel the sting of his ultimate quite so much. Yeah, late game a Veigar ult can have a raw damage of 1600+ raw magic damage on someone who has no AP, but with Maw, GA, Merc Treads, or Mercurial Scimitar, it is not nearly as effective.

No flash no lifeMar 8, 20165 votes

Nah it should do extra dmg based on his opponent's mr

DeloricVIMar 8, 20164 votes

You sir are a game balancing Wizard.

Sadistic VeigarMar 8, 20162 votes

back in the day when it did damaged based on mana , it had bonus damage towards champs that didn't use mana so this would be pretty similar

Solidair3Mar 8, 20162 votes

That goes against his anti-ap thematuc, and gives him an unintended strength.

He could use a little love, but I really don't think he's as far out of line as people are saying.

KushDid420Mar 8, 20161 votes

I don't think he's really meant to be an Anti-Mage

The only ones that fit that are Kassadin and Galio

Veigars theme is the Tiny Master of Evil, he is known for his shitty early but lethal burst late game. He is basically the one shotter of legaue. I don't think He was really meant to be an Anti-Mage but the enemy ap scaling is a nice bonus

MirkhailMar 10, 20161 votes

he don't have an anti-ap identity outside of his ultimate, his cage and burst are his indentity

ModWulf HelhammerMar 8, 20161 votes

You don't really think much about something like this, do you?

KingnewgameplusMar 8, 20161 votes

It should have a 200% ap scaling, scale off of 150% enemy ad and ap, deal true damage, and stun for 3.25 seconds.

LuskebuksMar 8, 20161 votes

veigar imo is fine atm

it's more the meta that messes a bit, since more and more are playing ad based champions... this is just the current meta, nothing with the champ as such my duo friend still plays him, and a lot actually in ranked... his stun for zoning is awesome, and especially when they dive him, ofc he dies sometimes, but rarely alone due to enemy being stuck under tower and his massive burst, wich also hurts ad champions

Lady HammerlockMar 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

veigar imo is fine atm

it's more the meta that messes a bit, since more and more are playing ad based champions... this is just the current meta, nothing with the champ as such my duo friend still plays him, and a lot actually in ranked... his stun for zoning is awesome, and especially when they dive him, ofc he dies sometimes, but rarely alone due to enemy being stuck under tower and his massive burst, wich also hurts ad champions

or just say item 3156 just screws veigar hard+ item 3053 i mean you can't even kill the adc in 1 rotation

Wolf with a GunMar 8, 20161 votes

I've been playing veigar since early season 2 and I've never quite found a problem with it not scaling against AD champs, because you'd be fed enough with immobile glass canon mid (or lose to kassadin) but seeing as there are no ap mids anympre, just assassins Veigar I think could finally use something to deal with it. With the ap scale on assists was an extremely huge buff to help vs assassins, as long as your jungles helped, but I think something like, if the champion has 0 ap deal a bigger amount or some special effect might be nice, it's niche enough to not be too huge, and might bend some Ad Champ's elbows into getting some really weird ap item to help them survive. Which would be hilarious to ruin their build a bit. TLDR: something small to help the snowball Mage get a better start vs assassins is all that's needed or he'll just be OK in this meta

Alexander316Mar 8, 20161 votes

Make it do the highest number between 80% of the target's AP and 100% of the target's bonus ad.Of course,the AD number is subject to change. It would be pretty good without breaking him.

CatastropMar 8, 20161 votes

Basically did the same thing way back in the day.

Wolfram OxfordMar 8, 20161 votes

Scaling with enemy AD, that's toxic.

EcchiOtakuTMMar 8, 20161 votes

I mean the only person it would hurt is jhin :/ cause most AD champs don't go above 300 AD and all of their real power is through continued AA and in-kit power. Especially since they nerfed how much AD you can get.

LatetotheRaceMar 8, 20161 votes

Well most people don't get much more AD than 300 or so, so I think 240ish extra damage would be ok.

Meep ManMar 8, 20161 votes

That moment when you realize all champions have some AD

But in honesty, why not just change his ultimate from "80% of their AP" to "55% of their bonus AD and AP"?

KaxiMar 8, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Inept Maverick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LoEYVsc8,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2016-03-08T17:31:02.468+0000)

That moment when you realize all champions have some AD

But in honesty, why not just change his ultimate from "80% of their AP" to "55% of their bonus AD and AP"?

You'd open up a new can of worms of ADCs complaining despite other champions doing it in 2-3 spells instead of just their ultimate.