Urgot's itemization is horrendously limited

Big Lincoln·Apr 14, 2018·65 votes·28,289 views

to the point where his only real AD item that can be called core is and he is effectively disbarred from any other juggernaut items. Can't buy Sterak's, or Titanic, and Triforce is obviously out of the question because of how his kit works. Attack speed items are not good because he actually loses DPS by buying them if he ever uses W. is situationally strong but not worth purchasing every game, same for . His rune options are pretty mediocre between Aftershock, Comet, and Spellbook, but that's a different problem.

If Urgot wants to itemize more offensively than Cleaver-fulltank, then he has to dip into other classes' items, a problem that existed for fighters a long time ago and was the reason we got items like Sterak's in the first place. Namely assassin items, Ghostblade and Duskblade (there's actually a Korean Urgot buying both of these and doing really well in high elo)

I'd like to be able to build my juggernaut like he's a juggernaut, though, and not an assassin. thx

109 Comments

RiotRiotRepertoirApr 14, 201850 votes

Yeah. Feels pretty bad. Not getting full effect from Conqueror has a similar feel.

On the plus side, we've been testing a few new fighter items that hopefully don't need to have the 'melee only' flag on them, but it's hard to say if they'll make it to Live in that state.

Recently I put in a change for testing where Urgot was just considered melee for the purposes of systems like these, but overwhelmingly got negative feedback on that.

My personal preference would be that we have another split similar to how we have range / melee that describes defensive profile rather than range profile. In most cases they line up, but if for example, we had a light / heavy split, that might do good stuff for making champions like Urgot and GP more balanceable within the item system. Biggest immediate problem I can see with that, however, is that there's no immediate gameplay connection to that profile in the same way there is for AA ranges.

Big LincolnApr 14, 201812 votes

reppy baby can you tell me more about these items? do they do cool stuff and have neat actives?

my whole self tingles with excitement

AhristocatsApr 14, 20183 votes

think he's talking about the mid season update

MelledoneusApr 14, 20182 votes

Mr. President, please contain yourself! The people are watching you on live television.

RiotRiotRepertoirApr 14, 201812 votes

I'd love to, but it's not really my direct work, so it'd be kinda lame of me to be the one to reveal it.

InfernapeApr 14, 20188 votes

Would changing "melee only" items to "champion has less than 450 range only" have a positive effect? It would allow champions like Thresh and Urgot who are ranged versions of their respective classes get the full use out of their class' items.

Variable ÆApr 14, 20185 votes

{quoted}

Would changing "melee only" items to "champion has less than 450 range only" have a positive effect? It would allow champions like Thresh and Urgot who are ranged versions of their respective classes get the full use out of their class' items.

How would Graves' autos interact with Tiamat?

I know Cleave has a very short internal CD so that Shyvana's dragon form Twin Bite doesn't proc it several times at once on multiple targets, but Graves' pellets don't always hit simultaneously so they might fall outside the internal CD.

There's also Gnar, whose mini form starts the game with 400 range but scales up with level, exceeding 450 at level 10.

Slythrin UmbreonApr 15, 20182 votes

I don't play melee champs much so I might be wrong, but I think tiamat (onhit, not the active) animation seems to start from the target of the attack. So I imagine for graves it would just go off on the first target hit.

ThurgotOfThunderApr 14, 20183 votes

I'm just curious, what was the negative feedback with him being considered melee? Too much damage? Items/Runes too strong?

Also, I've seen rioters say that attack speed scaling on W has been tested, what went wrong with that? If it can't crit, I can't imagine that being too strong.

ChaosThiefApr 14, 20182 votes

I'd honestly assume a mix of both. He would be getting all the benefits of melee items while still having more range than most of them. Plus there would be quite a few nightmarish items to build on urgot. item 3748 comes immediately to mind; he would have pretty insane area damage with it. Sterak's on Urgot would also be incredibly good on him, since he has a total AD ratio on quite literally everything. Plus, things like conqueror and grasp would be really hard to deal with when fighting him (if you're purely melee; he outranges you while maintaining conqueror through his W, or he would constantly be getting full grasp procs on you while you can't retaliate without going in on him.)

BurnTheSteak87Apr 15, 20182 votes

Regarding item 3053 ...

We're not talking about giving free buffs, but giving him back what he used to build.

Sterak's Gage was good on Urgot and not on a matter of damages, but survival.

Plus, things like conqueror and grasp would be really hard to deal with when fighting him (if you're purely melee; he outranges you while maintaining conqueror through his W, or he would constantly be getting full grasp procs on you while you can't retaliate without going in on him.)

That's exactly what happens when you go under whoever other champ that is abusing Conqueror, I don't see how it would be a Urgot's only related problem.

ChaosThiefApr 15, 20182 votes

Regarding the Sterak, yes, it might not be an issue, but making Urgot a melee champion would give him access to other items that might be problematic (the hydras, for example, giving him quite a bit of waveclear past his passive procs).

As for the other champs abusing conqueror, they do at least get into true melee range, for the most part. Sure, they might hurt and nuke you and all, but in laning phase you at least can fight back if they try to go in for it; melee vs urgot you may not have such a luxury. That extra 200 some range that urgot has over another melee could put him into essentially the position of Gnar; except he has the constant power of mega Gnar to boot.

Of course, this is all raw theory; there isn't a way to prove it without actually putting it into practice.

RiotRiotRepertoirApr 14, 20188 votes

It was actually more a matter of principle wherein if we broke ranged/melee expectations for champions, what's the point of the distinction and what kind of can of worms is being opened up insofar as power creep and intuitiveness of the game are concerned.

AnataBakkaApr 14, 20184 votes

you shouldn't care about inconsistencies between melee/ranged. Currently you're making Jhin stack additively with dragon and guinsoo while the others stack multiplicatively/recursively. I'm sure you can make other exceptions (urgot)

Illâoi Evê SiônApr 14, 20188 votes

I'm not sure you're allowed to mention power creep. That's a whole storage house full of worms, discussion-wise.

Sahn UzalApr 14, 20182 votes

As far as not breaking the rules goes, ye could give him 150 AA, then add an additional effect to his passive giving him an additional 150 range to end up at 300.

I mean, AAtrox AA's from range and doesn't behave like it when he uses his massacre (Tiamat etc still works just fine), so it'd be within the rules, right?

GigglesOApr 14, 20186 votes

"Unique passive, urgot is a ranged melee champion"

:thinking:

We already have alot of things like no boots, Mana Mage, Velkoz blink autos that aren't "really ranged" and etc...

underscores222Apr 15, 20181 votes

Vel's autos, like thresh and kayle, aren't particles so they aren't blocked by windwall.

GigglesOApr 15, 20182 votes

Still a ranged aa that isn't a projectile that "breaks the mold"

There are alot of things that break molds. There isn't much reason why Urgot couldn't be a one off, except that someone somewhere decided that "That wouldn't be ok" even though you could list something that breaks the mold on alot of champions.

BernApr 14, 20185 votes

The roster is already so large that a few rules breaks should be considered fine, IMO. Just as the golden rule of MtG exists so that you can break rules for more interesting and balanced gameplay on a card-by-card basis, League design should be fine with breaking some rules for more interesting or balanced gameplay on a kit-by-kit and champion-by-champion basis.

I remember someone else suggesting part of his passive give him access to Urgot-only versions of Sterak's and other important items, which made a lot of sense; if other champions can have unique ways of interacting with the shop, like GP's Silver Serpents or Viktor's hex core, I don't see why Urgot can't have a special version of Sterak's and other useful items. And I also don't really see why he can't be classed as melee either; I don't see how this is less intuitive than, say, how building attack speed on Jhin just doesn't give you attack speed, or how dual-form champions interact with ranged/melee splits.

At the end of the day, League has so many champions that the game is going to struggle to be both intuitive and balanced in certain designspaces that it chooses to explore. At that point -- especially since League has such a burden of knowledge to play competently anyways -- I don't think there's any real sin in breaking a "rule" here and there to help game balance.

My Waifu VanillaApr 15, 20183 votes

I mean there is already "weird" scenarios with things like Rakan. Rakan HAS an auto attack animation for punching and the rest of his animations are him slapping things with his cape. Nothing in his play SEEMS ranged, but he is labeled as one because aa range reasons. Thresh at least has an AA range of 450 so it at least FEELS more like a ranged champion, but Rakan at a clean 300 is very short. Even Irelia is rocking 200 which is quite large and doesn't FEEL that much shorter than someone like Rakan.

Variable ÆApr 14, 20182 votes

{quoted}

I'm just curious, what was the negative feedback with him being considered melee? Too much damage? Items/Runes too strong?

I imagine the way item 3077 and its upgrades would interact with his W might have had something to do with it.

Raven RedeemedApr 14, 20183 votes

Obviously this wouldn’t solve the Urgot item problem, but what if Rakan and Tresh were temporarily flagged as melee if they make an AA in melee range for the purpose of Targon’s.

ValiantKillerApr 14, 20184 votes

{quoted}

Yeah. Feels pretty bad. Not getting full effect from Conqueror has a similar feel.

On the plus side, we've been testing a few new fighter items that hopefully don't need to have the 'melee only' flag on them, but it's hard to say if they'll make it to Live in that state.

Recently I put in a change for testing where Urgot was just considered melee for the purposes of systems like these, but overwhelmingly got negative feedback on that.

My personal preference would be that we have another split similar to how we have range / melee that describes defensive profile rather than range profile. In most cases they line up, but if for example, we had a light / heavy split, that might do good stuff for making champions like Urgot and GP more balanceable within the item system. Biggest immediate problem I can see with that, however, is that there's no immediate gameplay connection to that profile in the same way there is for AA ranges.

Why not consider him melee ? The guy need to flip someone from melee range to be able to use his knees in every direction as possible that mean urgot mostly special in team fights locked into melee range not to mention that his W slow already make him almost not ranged at all cause you need to keep your E and Q on someone to lock them down for W.

I think yourself saw how he dropped in winrate so far from that new runes patch, he is heavy punished now by champion that able to use it and what make things even worst for him right now that most of the champions that using Conqueror already had something to counter his Ult including Yasuo windwall and Olaf Ult.

Thing so far not shining for urgot and he need something to make him able use that keystone atleast to match the champions that he was able to 1v1 before, now Jax run down over Urgot due the true damage while before it always used to be a skilled match not sudden death from pop true damage.

PrismaticApr 15, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Why not consider him melee

There has to be a better way to balance or buff urgot than just straight up making him [pseudo] melee, because he is and always was distinctly ranged, despite being a bruiser that wants to use the rune. I think either new items or other major keystones, or a more specified change in mind would be better suited. Even if that was in the way of more armor pen (in a similar vein to Darius) to compete with the fact that he cannot use conqueror.

WolfeurApr 14, 20183 votes

Have you tought about making items scale with range? The higher the range, the lesser the benefit. Feels like a nice organic way of balancing items, but it probably requires a lot of work.

Rune KegApr 14, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Yeah. Feels pretty bad. Not getting full effect from Conqueror has a similar feel.

On the plus side, we've been testing a few new fighter items that hopefully don't need to have the 'melee only' flag on them, but it's hard to say if they'll make it to Live in that state.

Recently I put in a change for testing where Urgot was just considered melee for the purposes of systems like these, but overwhelmingly got negative feedback on that.

My personal preference would be that we have another split similar to how we have range / melee that describes defensive profile rather than range profile. In most cases they line up, but if for example, we had a light / heavy split, that might do good stuff for making champions like Urgot and GP more balanceable within the item system. Biggest immediate problem I can see with that, however, is that there's no immediate gameplay connection to that profile in the same way there is for AA ranges.

Hey Repertoir, thanks for the info on urgot.

There's something I wanted to ask you. If I recall correctly a rioter mentioned making urgot's auto attack feel a bit better. Maybe I'm just bad but I seriously have a hell of a time last hitting with him. Any info on that?

RiotRiotRepertoirApr 14, 20188 votes

I want to do a pass on Urgot when I get the chance to improve some feels, so I'd like to do it then. He's got some really weird stuff going on that messes with his early game laning. Weird attack frame, bad base AS, atrocious pathing, among other things.

PrismaticApr 14, 20185 votes

{quoted}

atrocious pathing

This is the change I'm looking forward to most

Rune KegApr 14, 20182 votes

{quoted}

I want to do a pass on Urgot when I get the chance to improve some feels, so I'd like to do it then. He's got some really weird stuff going on that messes with his early game laning. Weird attack frame, bad base AS, atrocious pathing, among other things.

Thanks for the response - all that sounds great! Hopefully we'll see it soon :)

DeadUnbornApr 14, 20184 votes

If by "overwhelming negative feedback" you mean Maple Syrup, I suggest you at least release it to the PBE announcing it is experimental and have the community as a whole decide whether it is good or not. I've said this before but for some champions like urgot it just makes sense to be "melee"

RiotRiotRepertoirApr 14, 20188 votes

I get that, and I don't want to get into who said what since that's not a very good path for me to head down, but it wasn't Maple. I could convince Maple most things are a good idea :p

TeCoolMageApr 14, 20183 votes

I would take light/heavy over ranged/melee any day for non-auto based items.

When comparing the two, range has a gameplay connection but there's no set number or characteristic for when 'ranged' ends and 'melee' begins, with auto attack range enhancement and non projectile ranged autos (like why is kayle with righteous fury ranged while aatrox with blood massacre isn't when both of them go above Urgot's range?). 'heaviness' has no gameplay connection but is visible in how the champion simply looks, and makes balance easier.

Just put in brackets (Heavy) or (Light) and highlight the stats in the shop, and add a small icon or something next to range or while pressing C.

OR if you want to preserve build-per-champion-diversity and not introduce a new stat, you can simply separate the two set of items completely. Passive: Heavy - You cannot buy light items. This will even help with abyssal mask + lost chapter building mages. (Make abyssal mask 'heavy', lost chapter 'light'). Items that are neutral like Botrk are neither, but clearly marksmen items like Rapid Fire Cannon, Runaan's hurricane, and IE should never, ever, be bought with sterak's gage. Most champions that can do this are TERRIBLE to play vs. when it's their meta build (like Yi, Rengar and Trynd in a crit-bruiser meta. That simply shouldn't be allowed. Pick one, and balance it like hybrid AP AD champs like kaisa are balanced. With two distinct builds)

Though imo if marksmen weren't so capable of synergizing with literally any AD item that wasn't restricted none of this would be a problem.

Tomoe GozenApr 14, 20181 votes

Your solution isn't fixing the problem, though. There might be broader use cases between "heavy" and "light" but who would classify as who? Those are not intuitive tags because they aren't relevant to gameplay. "Melee" VS "ranged" is more specific even if you don't know exact number of units where one AA range ends and the other begins. Champions that fire projectiles are usually ranged while melee don't do that. You can also judge that by how close the targets you aim at, need to be to you. There are exceptions, of course but those are few and far between (you already mentioned Kayle and Aatrox).

Switching to "heavy" and "light" would carry over the exact same problems as "ranged" and "melee". We're just using two different words to describe another way to classify items.

TeCoolMageApr 17, 20181 votes

Switching to "heavy" and "light" would carry over the exact same problems as "ranged" and "melee". We're just using two different words to describe another way to classify items.

It wouldn't, the problem isn't on clarity, it's on balance. Arbitrarily assigning items to champions based on a stat that otherwise has nothing to do with them is a problem (runaan's and tiamat will be excluded from this separation and will still be ranged-melee because they actually have to do with autos), assigning items to champions based on their intended items actually fixes balance problems with creating ranged champions who act like classes that tend to be melee.

HeimerLmaoApr 14, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Yeah. Feels pretty bad. Not getting full effect from Conqueror has a similar feel.

On the plus side, we've been testing a few new fighter items that hopefully don't need to have the 'melee only' flag on them, but it's hard to say if they'll make it to Live in that state.

Recently I put in a change for testing where Urgot was just considered melee for the purposes of systems like these, but overwhelmingly got negative feedback on that.

My personal preference would be that we have another split similar to how we have range / melee that describes defensive profile rather than range profile. In most cases they line up, but if for example, we had a light / heavy split, that might do good stuff for making champions like Urgot and GP more balanceable within the item system. Biggest immediate problem I can see with that, however, is that there's no immediate gameplay connection to that profile in the same way there is for AA ranges.

Can we get your opinion on giving Urgot's W an Attack Speed scaling, so he can build stuff like Triforce or BOTRK without wasting the AS from it?

DragonSheaApr 15, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Yeah. Feels pretty bad. Not getting full effect from Conqueror has a similar feel.

On the plus side, we've been testing a few new fighter items that hopefully don't need to have the 'melee only' flag on them, but it's hard to say if they'll make it to Live in that state.

Recently I put in a change for testing where Urgot was just considered melee for the purposes of systems like these, but overwhelmingly got negative feedback on that.

My personal preference would be that we have another split similar to how we have range / melee that describes defensive profile rather than range profile. In most cases they line up, but if for example, we had a light / heavy split, that might do good stuff for making champions like Urgot and GP more balanceable within the item system. Biggest immediate problem I can see with that, however, is that there's no immediate gameplay connection to that profile in the same way there is for AA ranges.

Urgot needs to be made a melee/ranged hybrid, I have said many times on the boards here that he needs to be able to use melee items but be locked out of ranged items so he can properly build bruiser items. Urgot should be a "Melee with a ranged attack" meaning that:

He can buy and but he can't use cleave or cresent.
He can buy again.
Depending on it being overpowered or not. He can either gain the melee or the ranged benefits of or
can't use

The KoolAidMan1Apr 16, 20181 votes

Thanks for engaging with the Urgot community. Even though I’m not loving what I’m hearing from the dev/balancing team in regards to urgot it does bring me some comfort to know that there is at least one dedicated urgot fan (you) fighting for him to stay relevant and not forgotten because of his niche design.

In regards to the fighter items do you feel confident that these new items will hit the mark without being abused by other roles/champs who use them better then urgot (Gnar, graves). Typically urgot gets the short end of the stick on most of these types of items (frozen mallet) when they hit a balanced state. What makes you feel like these items will work and be a good choices to build on urgot rather than just being an item that he is able to build.

Personally I feel like unless there is a change like the one you suggest in your last paragraph these will end up being like all other bruiser/fighter items on urgot... suboptimal and weak.

Speaking of design philosophy it feels like Urgot is at a crossroads. He was released relatively reciently, but is already feeling like he could easily slip to old forgotten urgot due to his kit and niche ranged tank style. Is there an urgency to get his route issue resolved or will it be bandaids and eventually outdated kit in his future.

Thanks again for the update!

D0P3STApr 17, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Yeah. Feels pretty bad. Not getting full effect from Conqueror has a similar feel.

On the plus side, we've been testing a few new fighter items that hopefully don't need to have the 'melee only' flag on them, but it's hard to say if they'll make it to Live in that state.

Recently I put in a change for testing where Urgot was just considered melee for the purposes of systems like these, but overwhelmingly got negative feedback on that.

My personal preference would be that we have another split similar to how we have range / melee that describes defensive profile rather than range profile. In most cases they line up, but if for example, we had a light / heavy split, that might do good stuff for making champions like Urgot and GP more balanceable within the item system. Biggest immediate problem I can see with that, however, is that there's no immediate gameplay connection to that profile in the same way there is for AA ranges.

I can see there being a massive problem with making him melee, but at he same time, scaling back some other power in the kit to compensate, would I think fix most of his problems, like scaling into late game and having access to the items that allow other Juggernauts to do Juggernaut things. If new items that he can use are in the works, great, but that always scares me. Just thinking back to "you can never kill me" GP like you referenced form the start of the season made me seriously considering dropping league, and I did till he got nerfed(still more needed in my opinion) and Conqueror came out. If Rakan and Thresh can be considered ranged, I don't see why Urgot cant be melee, for balance purposes.

The only Items I can find that this would affect are as follows:

Phage = Movement speed is no longer halfed, so Urgot's mobility is helped slightly.
Tiamat = good early buy if you want to hard push, but wouldn't be bought early over Phage most likely.
Titanic Hydra = Since the W reduces on-hit, the proc wouldn't help massively, but would offer him a really nice spike like other Juggs such as Darius that build it when ahead for wave clear and balance defensive/offensive stats with emphasis on his "AOE destruction" identity.
Frozen Mallet = This would be a massive buff to his stickiness, but even when the slow was 30% for him he was never broken, so I don't think this would result in massive power spike overall.
Dead Man's Plate = I could see this become staple considering some Urgot's build this now, but with Frozen Mallet it would probably just become "either or" decision on what you need at that time.
Sterak's Gage = This is the big one. Access to this Item would be exactly what Urgot need to do what he want to do a Juggernaut, and could be the biggest reason nerf might be needed in some areas of his kit if it went through.

Ketstones:

Fleet Footwork = Would remove the heal reduction which is super nice, but doubt anyone would take this. Even though lane sustain is always nice to have, especially if in a rough match up, Grasp would better probably.
Conqueror = THE Bruiser keystone, and would be so nice to have access to as Urgot. This also could demand nerfs in some other areas of the base kit.
Grasp of the Undying = Would remove the damage and healing reduction, allowing this to be a great option for the lanes you might need to sutain out, but most likely wouldn't be taken over Conqueror or PTA.
Glacial Augment = Could also be an option if you don't want to get Frozen Mallet or Dead Man's, but prob wouldn't be to much better then it is now.

Reaper5599Apr 17, 20181 votes

What about he you had him considered "Mid range", and test out changes that way, 'Mid Range' would be a new way of classifying a champions attack range, so there would be Melee, Mid range, then Ranged..

How it could work is you could change items like Steraks to say "Cannot buy if ranged" Rather then "Melee only', that way you could keep some times that would be too strong on him (Titanic Namely), Melee only, but it would open up his item builds by allowing him to Buy Steraks and use other items as you see fit, it could also effect champions like Rakan, maybe for the purpose of relic.

I hope our good ol shotgun kneed boi can get some love like this in the meantime, Excited to see what you have up your sleeves for fighter items.

The KoolAidMan1May 2, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Yeah. Feels pretty bad. Not getting full effect from Conqueror has a similar feel.

On the plus side, we've been testing a few new fighter items that hopefully don't need to have the 'melee only' flag on them, but it's hard to say if they'll make it to Live in that state.

Recently I put in a change for testing where Urgot was just considered melee for the purposes of systems like these, but overwhelmingly got negative feedback on that.

My personal preference would be that we have another split similar to how we have range / melee that describes defensive profile rather than range profile. In most cases they line up, but if for example, we had a light / heavy split, that might do good stuff for making champions like Urgot and GP more balanceable within the item system. Biggest immediate problem I can see with that, however, is that there's no immediate gameplay connection to that profile in the same way there is for AA ranges.

Are the adjustments/additions to the AD items on PBE what you were referncing in your above comment? Also its a little dishartenting to see the comments about gating support and jungle only items, but urgot still gets the short end of every fighter item he should be able to use.

As a fan of this game i have to be honest the lack of even addressing this design issue/mistake from anyone other then yourself tells me its just not a priority and riot is completely on with just letting urgot slide into his old niche irrelivant state. The champion is still bugged beyond belief, his “unstoppable” ultimate is countered by half the interactions in the game. What is the teason from a strategic perapectice to even pick this champ?

ValiantKillerApr 14, 20184 votes

Man my problem lay with being the god of bruisers yet not able to use the new keystone, urgot suppose to daruis twin in shreding and bullying people in lane yet daruis now with that new keystone doing that much much better than him. not to mention now champions that able to use the new keystone while urgot mostly went even against them now they rekt him, champions like Olaf Aatrox Jax Yasuo

Big LincolnApr 14, 20182 votes

that's just an unavoidable consequence, sadly, Urgot blows all his damage before conqueror is ready

ValiantKillerApr 14, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LdyzovVa,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-04-14T11:18:29.361+0000)

that's just an unavoidable consequence, sadly, Urgot blows all his damage before conqueror is ready

And worst of all since that "350" joke of ranged consider ranged, he can't even reset it in fight against champion...so yah welcome to bruiser that is punished for 350 range only and called ranged.

PotchikirApr 14, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Man my problem lay with being the god of bruisers yet not able to use the new keystone, urgot suppose to daruis twin in shreding and bullying people in lane yet daruis now with that new keystone doing that much much better than him. not to mention now champions that able to use the new keystone while urgot mostly went even against them now they rekt him, champions like

does NOT use Conqueror, Why? Because it sucks and its not viable with its current numbers

Olaf uses Predator on Jungle and Press the Attack on TopLane Aatrox uses Lethal Temp on TopLane and MidLane, And Press the Attack for Jungle Jax uses Press the Attack for TopLane and Jungle Yasuo uses Fleet Footwork for Toplane and Mid

Feel ApathyApr 14, 201824 votes

{quoted}

does NOT use Conqueror, Why? Because it sucks and its not viable with its current numbers

uses Predator on Jungle and Press the Attack on TopLane uses Lethal Temp on TopLane and MidLane, And Press the Attack for Jungle uses Press the Attack for TopLane and Jungle uses Fleet Footwork for Toplane and Mid

http://champion.gg/champion/Darius/Top?league= - Conqueror Darius http://champion.gg/champion/Olaf/Top - Comet - Olaf http://champion.gg/champion/Aatrox/Top?league= - Conqueror Aatrox http://champion.gg/champion/Jax/Top - Jax - Conqueror is the majority , Press the attack is still picked a good chunk. http://champion.gg/champion/Yasuo/Middle?league=platplus - Yasuo - Conqueror

Sorry mate, but you're full of shit.

DragonSheaApr 14, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Feel Apathy,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LdyzovVa,comment-id=000000010002,timestamp=2018-04-14T13:12:33.666+0000)

http://champion.gg/champion/Darius/Top?league= - Conqueror http://champion.gg/champion/Olaf/Top - Comet - http://champion.gg/champion/Aatrox/Top?league= - Conqueror http://champion.gg/champion/Jax/Top - - Conqueror is the majority , Press the attack is still picked a good chunk. http://champion.gg/champion/Yasuo/Middle?league=platplus - - Conqueror

Sorry mate, but you're full of shit.

can't argue with the facts.

ZedexApr 14, 20182 votes

Regarding Yasuo, Conq is really effective for top lane if you're against someone who is going to stack armor against you. Any other matchup (and that includes all mid match ups) Fleet is far superior due to the sustain and movement burst.

Risen29Apr 15, 20182 votes

Urgot probably needs some special exemption that allows him to use the melee only items besides the hydras. Yeah its a sloppy fix but you didnt really leave yourselves much choice when you made stuff like steraks melee only because adcs were abusing it.