very few fighters have 'unique' utility

Big Lincoln·Jul 29, 2017·39 votes·4,204 views

almost all they get is armor shred and CC, i think this might be part of why a lot of them, especially older designs, feel very same-y.

list of fighters with armor shred or reduction in their kit

---- and can ignore armor

it's an annoyingly common feature for a large group of champs that also has as a core item for most of the champs listed here and plenty of champs who aren't

and fighters with strong CC is basically everyone that isn't Illaoi, Garen and Mord

utility that is unique to certain fighters

can heal allies has an AS boost for his team around his flag

not saying any of them should lose armor shred in favor of other stuff but it would be worth keeping it in mind, to help future fighter designs feel a little less monotonous if more of them had unique ways to boost their team. buffs, shields, heals, etc shouldn't just be for supports :-)

99 Comments

ModCaptainMårvelousJul 30, 201730 votes

What bugs me is that every diver has the exact same gameplay pattern.

XinZhao Nocturne Diana Camille JarvanIV and probably some I'm missing.

You use your point and click ability to get on top of the target. (Because every diver has one, usually their ult.)
You CC them for a little bit. Usually around 1-2 seconds with your basic skill.
You prod them until they die and/or pop your one defensive ability to get out.

Pretty much the only thing separating these characters is "Do they have an AS modifier/3-hit ability?". I like divers but I never get a great, unique feel from playing any of them besides some kinda hilarious damage if you go full DPS.

Oh well. Here's hoping the Xin rework is good.

Big LincolnJul 30, 20174 votes

tru, they have very copy and paste kits

I think the diver subclass is kinda flawed to begin with; it's got very specific requirements to actually BE a diver (single target focus, some lockdown, lots of damage usually DPS) but at the same time, it "works" because all divers are cut from the same cloth (same gameplay)

they should dissolve that class and rework them to be more of their own thing

Samflash3Jul 30, 20171 votes

What about Aatrox and Shyvana ?

ModCaptainMårvelousJul 30, 20171 votes

Delete step 2 for shyvana (as she has no CC). Aatrox does fall into that pattern however. His defensive ability is his rez though.

FirethornJul 30, 20171 votes

Doesn't her ult knock people aside/back?

ChaosThiefJul 30, 20171 votes

From what I have heard, unless they fixed it, it only really pushes the enemies aside a little bit, and the important part is the ability boosts from dragon form, not the knock back.

Either way, I wouldn't count it.

FirethornJul 30, 20171 votes

Ah okay thought it was a bigger displacement, mb

BeatinWarDrumzJul 30, 20171 votes

Ekko Elise Kayn Khazix Kled Olaf Riven Talon MonkeyKing Twitch Yasuo these are all different

Also, J4 and camille do not do that

ModCaptainMårvelousJul 30, 20172 votes

Using Riot's own list published shortly ago:

Divers are:

Aatrox
Camille
Diana
Elise
Hecarim
Irelia
Jarvan IV
Kled
Lee Sin
Olaf
Pantheon
Rek’Sai
Renekton
Rengar
Skarner
Vi
Warwick
Wukong
Xin Zhao

About half of what you listed aren't divers. (Kayn is more assassin/skirmisher than diver.)

So in terms of gameplay patterns, specifically in teamfights...

Aatrox- Dives in with Q, ults, autos/Es until he rezs. Camille- Dives in with her E, locks down a single target, autos with Q and hits with W. Diana- Tags someone with Q, ults in and tries to stick on them with W/E Elise- Cacoon, followed by unloading her burst in both forms. Hecarim- Charge in with R or E and just stick to them with Q/W Irelia- Dive in with Q, land slow/stun, auto/ult until dead.

I could go on and on and on but you should see the same gameplay pattern from almost all of these characters. The ones who have a UNIQUE pattern...

Olaf- Rather than having a gapcloser, Olaf wades through teams and flings axes like a madman. Lee Sin- The sheer variety of what he does is unparalleled compared to other divers. Wukong- By virture of being one of the only major AoE divers.

But let's take a step back. Even with all the things listed here, what utility do most of these characters bring? Just as OP said: Raw damage, armor pen and a bit of CC. Almost every diver here has the same utility and/or utility so small it doesn't matter ala Lee Sin's shield or Kled's MS boost from his ult. Regardless of how you play these characters, they all do relatively the same thing and provide the same sort of utility.

ChaoticPineconeJul 30, 20174 votes

Wait what? Hold up.

Elise's "diver" status is highly subject - she plays half mage, half diver. Very different from charging in with a gapcloser like you describe "general divers" to do Diana - also half mage. A little less than Elise and a little more "diver" (or even Assassin), but in order to maximize damage and sticking potential you do need to land your Q before going in.

To add to unique: Pantheon - W-ing in isnt always a possible strat. You need to use your ult. Having a semiglobal positioning tool is pretty unique among divers. Skarner - no idea if he is a juggernaught or diver. Plays more like a juggernaught to me than running at someone (slowly) and getting cc'ed to death trying to catch that carry Kled - somewhat semi-global position tool. Also plays more like a skirmisher once his ult is down

The ones with similar kits/purposes are Vi, Rengar, Warwick. Then another group for Xin, Camille, and Jarvan. Irelia plays more like a skirmisher, as does Aatrox. Hecarim plays a lot like Wukong.

And funnily enough, Nocturne isnt a diver on the list? But Rengar is? Not sure how that works.

Riots lists are only half thought out.

Corvo AttanoJul 30, 201712 votes

{quoted}

What bugs me is that every diver has the exact same gameplay pattern.

I'll have you know that the differences between some divers is huge Jax : item 3078 item 3748 item 3026 item 3065 item 3742 item 3111 Camille :

ModCaptainMårvelousJul 30, 20177 votes

DID SOMEONE SAY...

#METAGOLEM!?

SEKAIJul 30, 20176 votes

{quoted}

DID SOMEONE SAY...

#METAGOLEM!?

Metagolem can never be the same without FoN and Atmas.

SH AzykanJul 30, 20175 votes

titanic is a pretty good replacement for atmas though

SEKAIJul 30, 20173 votes

{quoted}

titanic is a pretty good replacement for atmas though

Bu-but... ITS NOT THE SAME!

https://media.tenor.com/images/b49fd66511409e47944f84f2d810ee78/tenor.gif

Teridax68Jul 30, 20171 votes

I agree with this, I think divers at this point are pretty much the most generic class in the game. They have no real defining weaknesses besides a lack of escapes (and even then, divers like Aatrox, Camille, Jarvan, Rek'Sai, etc. have free-targeted mobility on a fairly low cooldown, making that point moot), and despite frequently being overloaded, their mechanics and playstyles tend to draw from the same, fairly limited pool. I think not giving more of them ally-oriented utility is a tremendous missed opportunity, as their status as front liners able to wreck the enemy back line makes them the perfect complement to lockdown tanks, assassins, and more aggressive supports like Lulu, Rakan, Taric, etc. I look forward to seeing how the diver subclass will evolve in the future, particularly since now many of their members overlap more than ever before with tanks (though that's likely an issue with the Tank Update itself).

OyddAWqJ5rJul 30, 20171 votes

Prolly cuz that's what defines a Diver -- the ability to reliably dive a single target. Just so happens that click targets are pretty damn reliable. And since that's their 1 job I'd hope they'd be able to perform at least the "dive" portion consistently.

The difference between them though is pretty marginal imo.

XinZhao knocks enemies away from the target potentially setting up a clear route for skillshot focus fire and ofcourse general disruption is just tanky, has more CC and the most reliable dive pattern Nocturne is able to decimate his target single-handedly most of the time and has a much, much larger dive range Diana doubles as a mage being able to wittle enemies down from afar decently but in contrast has debate-ably the worst dive pattern Camille sets up a giant arena that knocks every enemy out except the target which is some pretty crazy unique stuff JarvanIV makes a terrain arena but is also conditionally a terrible dive pattern due to unreliability and no real CC on his ult

All of them create a similar threat feeling where dive targets will stay much further back then usual which is pretty much their only similarity outside of "they all dive".

ADeadManateeJul 30, 20171 votes

Divers as a whole have always been a problematic class. Their purpose is ill-defined (featuring a ton of overlap with Vanguards and Assassins) and regularly feature some of the worst design in League of Legends history. Camille is a great example. Riot felt that she needed a grotesquely overloaded kit and one of the least interactive abilities in the game (her ult) in order to shine. It's pretty telling that despite this, she is one of the best designed divers in the game.

Riot still hasn't figured out how to make divers work (or even how to define them) and with the class updates being scrapped, they might never figure that out.

DeathBot666Jul 31, 20171 votes

Although, to be fair that can be said for almost every role.

Almost every ADC has 3 of these:

a defensive ability (usually in the form of a dash), an AA buff (usually giving them increased DMG per auto/increased attack speed, sometimes both), a damaging ability, and a long range ability to catch out low health people (usually on their ult).

Basically every mage has a farming ability, a poking ability, and an ult which combos with the rest of their kit to burst people.

Almost every tank has a form of CC, a damaging ability, and a defensive ability (usually a shield or a heal).

Now, this isn't saying that every champion in league is basically the same, I'm just saying that generalizing kits to their most basic components makes people seem a lot different.

Big LincolnJul 31, 20171 votes

those groups are pretty homogenized though

ModCaptainMårvelousJul 31, 20171 votes

I disagree mostly because, comparative to what you said, there's far more difference in what you've listed than the diver staples of point-and-click gapcloser, singular CC ability (often a knock-up) and aa modifier or spell.

As an example, let's see the "defensive" abilities for some ADCs:

Caitlyn Her net, which knocks her enemy back, slows the target and procs a headshot. Draven Stand aside, which knocks enemies to the side in front of him. Graves Smokescreen, which limits vision radius afor enemies in the bubble. Sivir Spellshield, which blocks the next spell and restores mana. Ezreal An instant blink in a direction that teleports Ezreal.

and so on. Despite all of them possessing a "defensive" ability, each one has some unique hook or variation. As another comparison, let's look at mage ults:

AurelionSol knocks back people in a line to his outer rim. Azir creates an impassable wall that hits people back. Cassiopeia stuns everyone who is facing her. Ekko "DO OVER" Katarina AoE channel that hits a bunch of targets near her.

I mean I could list more and I'm certainly missing some mages who -do- fit your category, but suffice to say there's quite a bit of variation, even if mages do occupy and fit similar roles.

Now let's look at diver ults, as per the example:

Right-clicks someone, ignoring effects and CCIng the target with an unbreakable teather. JarvanIV Right-clicks someone, diving onto them and dealing heavy attack damage while creating a wall. Camille Right clicks someone, creating impassable walls around the target and dealing bonus damage. Shyvana Leaps in a direction, dragging enemies with her and empowering her abilities for a short time. LeeSin Right-clicks someone, knocking them back and dealing pretty heavy damage.

Even if these abilities -do- have some unique properties (and I'm missing certain divers with more varied ults), they often fall into the exact same circumstance with little variation in how they function or what they do. Divers don't have nearly the same unique hooks and can be boiled down far more easily than something like tanks or ADCs who are more "general" in their kit designs.

JacknifeJul 29, 201718 votes

While I will never be against making more interesting mechanics for champions, I'm gonna play devils advocate and say, why should fighter champs have some mechanic built to help others? One of the points of the armor reduction is to help other AD champs burst their target harder, sure, but it's also to help THEM deal effective damage throughout the game. That's likely because they're carry champs, meant to be ~~feared~~ respected because of the strength they give their team, instead of some crazy or CC-heavy ability that could make the enemy's plans go poof. Respact ~~wamen~~ figters.

Also since you brought Mordekaiser up, I'm gonna give my unpopular two cents and say that he should not have an ability that directly helps allies. Based on lore and thematics, he has never given a single shit about anyone in his entire life. I really don't see why he should start now that his life is technically over.

Big LincolnJul 29, 20172 votes

carry champs aren't automatically barred from having utility and it's restrictive design to do so

Ashe Kalista Sivir are 3 high-utility hard carries but only Kalista is complained about as having a flawed design, and the complaints aren't at all about the utility she brings

hi hi its zy zyJul 29, 20176 votes

actually my issue with kalista in general was never her mobility or damage (this is back on release and the months after before they finally put her down). it was that she had an aoe knockup AND more damage and mobility than ashe did at the time. her passive is bullshit and all but the fact that it came with so much utility alongside it was what made her unfair for me. only kalista (to this day actually) can rescue her support from the most impossible situations, and only kalista can give thresh a mobility tool to instantly land in the middle of the enemy team. had kalista not brought all that utility alongside the passive that made melees a nonexistent hurdle for her to effortless jump across, she may have been somewhat fair. but in her kit's current iteration, it's not only impossible for a melee champion to kill her, she also makes it impossible for you to kill her support. and then get your entire team cc'd for trying.

JacknifeJul 29, 20171 votes

I never said they were barred from utility. I just asked why should they be able to help others?

Here's what I mean. Ashe , on the one hand, has a bunch of slows built into her kit (among other things). Mid-combat, this is extremely effective for her because it compensates for her lack of mobility and allows her to keep her enemies at a reasonable distance (theoretically). Would you say those slows were put into her kit to help her, or her allies?

Fiora , on the other hand, as we all know, has a huge aoe heal tied to her ultimate if the player decides to follow the minigame (or just has a lot of damage). That aoe obviously can house more than just her inside of it. I ask again, in this context, is this put into her kit to benefit her more, or her allies?

"Oh you're just splitting hairs! As long as they have utility what does it matter who it helps?" I could make that same argument about armor reduction in kits. It's put there to benefit them and help them carry, and the added benefit that other AD champs can access the armor reduction too is just an afterthought. There are selfish champion abilities, and helpful champion abilities. I see no reason to favor one over another.

Big LincolnJul 29, 20175 votes

if armor reduction was meant purely for them you could just turn it into penetration like Darius, so that teammates don't benefit from it. it's clear that it's meant to benefit more than themselves, because any form of team utility keeps them from being excessively feast or famine (notice that many of them still are, because armor shred is not a unique fighter concept anymore and doesn't give them a good fallback)

Would you say those slows were put into her kit to help her, or her allies?

both

I ask again, in this context, is this put into her kit to benefit her more, or her allies?

both

JacknifeJul 29, 20171 votes

it's clear that it's meant to benefit more than themselves, because any form of team utility keeps them from being excessively feast or famine.

Agreed, but that doesn't mean it can't be used selfishly. The way you phrased it in your OP, it sounded like you wanted to shoehorn utility into fighters' kits just to not make them feast or famine. If that were to happen then I don't see what would be stopping them from being better supports than fighters (remember, Blitzcrank was originally a top laner).

notice that many of them still are, because armor shred is not a unique fighter concept anymore and doesn't give them a good fallback

That seems more a fault with the champions' abilities than anything.

Garen has armor reduc in his kit, but he can't make use of it!

Maybe that's because he's super slow and predictable.

Renekton has armor reduc but can't make use of it!

Maybe that's because his range is crap and super conditional.

Big LincolnJul 30, 20171 votes

The way you phrased it in your OP, it sounded like you wanted to shoehorn utility into fighters' kits just to not make them feast or famine.

no, i just want something different; i think it would make the fighter class less like each other, which is a problem riot's admitted they've had with the class for years. like i said, i'd rather see this kept in mind when making NEW fighters than on reworked ones because many of these champions already have mostly-entirely selfish identities.

JacknifeJul 30, 20171 votes

Well then how would you go about doing that? It can't be a stat from items, because it wouldn't really be unique to fighters, and I'm sure ADC's would make better use of it (like every other stat in the game). Nor can you bind the stat to fighter champions' kits, that would just end up having them balanced on an entirely different lvl than everyone else. IDEAS MAN, IDEAS!

Like I said in my first post, I will never be against making champion abilities more interesting, but I don't think we should just get rid of the selfish altogether, and instead have it tied more to the thematics of the champion in order to make them more unique. Garen and Jayce ? Yeah I could definitely see them having more team-based utility. Darius or Gangplank ? Hell naw, my gold.

Big LincolnJul 30, 20171 votes

idk i've been toying with a fighter who's got a small aoe heal zone like soldier 76, but it requires multiple enemies nearby. sort of like a "rally" morale boost, had them put in noxus

and then there was another idea i had of a champion who creates an area of vision denial around themselves, that makes them immune to damage coming from outside that shroud so ranged champs have to reduce their kiting range to get in there, but melees aren't affected. i didn't flesh it out that much but it was kinda neat as a concept

different thought could be something like Pugna; a champion who soft-silences you by punishing you for casting spells in a certain area near them. we've gotten a lot of anti-casters lately, though

or just something like Taric's old ult; you know, auras and buffs, or stronger debuffs that aren't just slows. not everything needs to be super huge and visible, i think; as long as you at least know what's happening and can do something around it it should be acceptable design

JacknifeJul 30, 20171 votes

Forgive me, but I do have some criticism on these ideas, seeing as you brought them up. Reminder I'm not saying all this to be mean or put you down, just to sharpen the idea as much as possible until it's strong enough to use.

The "requires multiple enemies" seems needlessly restrictive. Also we have quite a few aoe heals in the game nowadays.
Neat indeed. I would actually love to see this implemented, so let me know when you've got it more fleshed out.
Eh, I always thought 's anti-caster schtick got nerfed into the ground, so this would be a good passive to replace the old, binary "15% less magic damage cause fuck you".
Not everything needs to be super visible and out there, sure, but auras I would argue to be the one thing you need to be telegraphed. This argument is the whole reason got a mini-rework.

But I'm glad you're thinking. The way I see it if you want something done, you gotta consider both sides of the coin in order to get a good idea/argument. After all, a coin isn't worth anything unless it's got both sides.

Big LincolnJul 30, 20172 votes

sorry, i got the heals mixed up. one was like a heal over time in a circle, and then a different one would be a ground-targeted skillshot heal that gets stronger based on how many enemies are nearby, to make it much stronger as a clutch tool in dense teamfights and preventing them from being overwhelming in duels.

i'd really like to see more fighters that actually team-fight, instead of either dumping their load on a squishy asap and leaving (divers and garen), or split pushing because they can't get past the front line (juggers not named darius/trundle)

AhristocatsJul 29, 20173 votes

doesn't matter if morde gives a shit about people or not DOES NOT FCKING MATTER

all that matters is a good gameplay that isn't feast or famin

JacknifeJul 29, 20172 votes

https://31.media.tumblr.com/0ae4a458b02b1705c96dd846493e2aad/tumblr_inline_n3ghj9J3u91qcklud.gif

Also calm down, I'm just giving an opinion! It's not like my entire life is invalidated if people disagree with it.

RalanrJul 30, 20172 votes

Both can end in flames is the problem.

Sometimes you don't fix what isn't broken.

LankPantsJul 30, 20179 votes

all that matters is a good gameplay that isn't feast or famin

Good joke.

Big LincolnJul 30, 201713 votes

REST IN PIECE THEMATICS Sejuani

AhristocatsJul 30, 20172 votes

thanks, mister "morde is a trash replacement for an adc" while all high elo morde mains are playing him in the adc role

oh yeah, and tell me again that no one plays him in the adc role, i have like 15 op.gg of d1+ players waiting right now Even Malicious acknowledged that adc morde is busted

if anything, everything you said about morde is more a joke than anything i said

LankPantsJul 30, 20177 votes

thanks, mister "morde is a trash replacement for an adc" while all high elo morde mains are playing him in the adc role

Citation needed.

I can bring up the argument that you can't counter without a heavily cherrypicked set of statistics, out of the top 10 Mord players in the world only one (who is number 8) plays Mord ADC with any regularity. A couple will play Mord ADC when they're filled into ADC but most actually just play an entirely different ADC.

Here's the sources on that, because I'm not talking out of my arse like you Best Mord's Globally https://lan.op.gg/summoner/userName=magnusmagno

oh yeah, and tell me again that no one plays him in the adc role, i have like 15 op.gg of d1+ players waiting right now About 10% of Mord players D+ play him ADC. That's just a statistical fact. 70% of player's play him top, 10% Mid, 10% ADC and about 8% jungle.

http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/mordekaiser/diamond

It's also funny how well those two line up, isn't it? About 10% of all Mord players play ADC, 1 of 10 of the top 10 players play ADC, it's almost like that's the most likely number it could have been.

Teridax68Jul 30, 20171 votes

I'd say that, while most fighters do tend to play fairly selfishly, i.e. by doing their own thing and not really looking out for their allies, fighters themselves are not a selfish class, as they do contribute to teamfights with their survivability, DPS, occasional CC, etc. Allowing a fighter to dish out allied utility could work simply because they're going to be in the middle of the fray anyway, and having bonuses that help others along the way could provide them with extra opportunities for interaction. By contrast, most assassins won't really care about ally-oriented utility because they really are the game's most selfish class, and often depend on being away from both teams in order to catch lone targets.

As for Mordekaiser, I speak as a non-main, but I totally agree. Mordekaiser doesn't help those on his side, he dominates them, and if he ever should interact with an ally it should be for his own personal gain, and no-one else's. In fact, having a form of ally interaction on a fighter that is completely self-serving would be unique, as to my knowledge there is no such effect in-game (even Morde's current W heals its target).

Asayake 5150glowJul 30, 20176 votes

No one gives a shit that all these guys can ignore armor because it does NOT make them feel the same, at all. Gangplank has nothing in common with J4 except massive AoE damage. He has nothing in common with Trundle, period. Vi and Darius have nothing in common except the ability to kill you in a single combo if you're squishy and they built a damage item or two.

Sure they can all ignore armor, but that's a passive effect that doesn't translate into gameplay. It doesn't make them feel the same, but without it, they would all do less damage, especially against tankier targets.

Chaos Milk TeaJul 30, 20173 votes

Um Most of these champions wouldnt be considered fighters. You have a mix of tanks, juggernauts, dps, and gangplank is basically an AD mage.

KàyleJul 30, 20173 votes

Kayle Isn't really a fighter... But she has a hybrid pen passive so that she can build damage instead of pen earlier.

Relevant. https://image.prntscr.com/image/ij_Mvq4KQhy0NSXLr5F0qA.png

ChaosThiefJul 30, 20174 votes

Mmm... I think that picture is wrong. It isn't Lee Sin in the center.

DuskDaUmbreonJul 31, 20171 votes

Because Lee isn't a mage or marksman of any flavor, nor is he a tank (on that wheel). And it's a serious stretch to call him an enchanter or disrupter...

ChaosThiefJul 31, 20171 votes

It's more of a joke really. Especially referring to this joke video.

Big Black CrocJul 31, 20171 votes

Rip Renekton.

TheRossJanitorJul 30, 20171 votes

Let us see you try to manage a game with ~140 characters, while also operating balance and counterplay, and releasing new ones all the time without having this happen. Oh wait, you can't, and neither can Riot (or any other game company for that matter).

Enough said.

Big LincolnJul 30, 20175 votes

this is so far removed from anything resembling an actual argument i'm not sure why you bothered

i could make a utilitarian fighter pretty handily

TheRossJanitorJul 30, 20171 votes

That's nice, but could you make hundreds consistently while also keeping in mind balance for every other one in the game?