"Vayne is a tank shredder"

Drunken Yasuo·Aug 15, 2015·24 votes·2,604 views

i saw a rioter posting this.

ok.

remove the flat true damage and change the %MaxHP to %BonusHP True Damage if she is a tank shredder.

64 Comments

JustMyBassCannonAug 15, 201513 votes

[{quoted}](name=Drunken Yasuo,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LUnEf38O,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-08-15T21:06:08.385+0000)

i saw a rioter posting this.

ok.

remove the flat true damage

Yes

and change the %MaxHP to %BonusHP True Damage if she is a tank shredder.

No

Remove the flat damage, yes. Functionally, against low-HP targets, that's an additional +3% max HP damage.

However, Silver Bolts is a part of her power budget. If you make it literally worthless against anything that hasn't built health, she's going to need buffs in other places to actually remain viable.

YossarianSenseiAug 15, 20158 votes

Yall not even putting effort into this Vayne QQ anymore

Did you even spend maybe 30 seconds thinking about what those changes would do before posting it?

CrossetteAug 15, 20152 votes

If you change it to %bonusHP then she wouldn't have any extra damage on her W against ADCs.

Make it just %max, but a REALLY SHITTY PERCENT.

VicvictorwAug 15, 20156 votes

{quoted}

If you change it to %bonusHP then she wouldn't have any extra damage on her W against ADCs.

Make it just %max, but a REALLY SHITTY PERCENT.

Good?

If her specialty- her thing, is to be a tank shredder, it would only make sense to make her a bit worse off against a squishy.

Right now she doesn't have any problems against either.

CrossetteAug 15, 20153 votes

I'm just saying it would basically negate her laning phase against another ADC because her damage would just be gone.

VicvictorwAug 15, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I'm just saying it would basically negate her laning phase against another ADC because her damage would just be gone.

Vayne at level 1 has higher base damage than Jinx, Urgot, Lucian, Sivir, Tristana, Corki, Ashe, Quinn, Jayce, Draven, Ezreal, Caitlyn, Miss Fortune, Twitch, Kog'maw, and Varus.

CrossetteAug 15, 20151 votes

I like how you listed all of these out. You could just say "every ADC and pseudo-ADC"

VicvictorwAug 15, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I like how you listed all of these out. You could just say "every ADC and pseudo-ADC"

"Vayne has no damage in lane without her passive."

"Yeah, that's not true."

"lol u listed them all out"

Even if she had no passive, she would still be capable of holding her own against a large portion of the champ roster she'd see in bot lane.

CrossetteAug 15, 20152 votes

Her passive or her W? Because her passive is just a movement speed buff that allows chasing in lane...

VicvictorwAug 15, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Her passive or her W? Because her passive is just a movement speed buff that allows chasing in lane...

The passive we're discussing, so of course her W.

The fact that it's not her "passive" passive does not change the fact that it's still a passive.

You're grasping at straws here.

CrossetteAug 16, 20151 votes

Just nitpicking is all.

Also her passive is 20% of her damage early AND late game, from my experience. That's rather significant.

NemeBroAug 15, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I like how you listed all of these out. You could just say "every ADC and pseudo-ADC"

Graves' is higher actually.

ChaoticPineconeAug 15, 20151 votes

Graves is higher. Kalista matches her.

DurzakaAug 15, 20151 votes

She also has absolutely no way to trade outside of an AA at 550 range. EVER.

Whereas every single champion you just listed does (except for Draven).

Base damage is not everything.

VicvictorwAug 16, 20153 votes

{quoted}

She also has absolutely no way to trade outside of an AA at 550 range. EVER.

Whereas every single champion you just listed does (except for Draven).

Base damage is not everything.

Vayne's not allowed to cite her range as a disadvantage when her kit has that much mobility.

But if you want to talk range, Vayne has 550, which is more than Graves, Jinx (minigun), Quinn, Jayce, Kog'maw, Lucian, and Sivir.

She ties with Corki, Draven, Ezreal, Kalista, Miss Fortune, lv. 1 Tristana, and Twitch.

In fact, the only ADC champs that outrange her without the use of an ability are Caitlyn, Ashe, lv. 2+ Tristana, and Varus.

DurzakaAug 16, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Vayne's not allowed to cite her range as a disadvantage when her kit has that much mobility.

But if you want to talk range, Vayne has 550, which is more than Graves, Jinx (minigun), Quinn, Jayce, Kog'maw, Lucian, and Sivir.

She ties with Corki, Draven, Ezreal, Kalista, Miss Fortune, lv. 1 Tristana, and Twitch.

In fact, the only ADC champs that outrange her without the use of an ability are Caitlyn, Ashe, lv. 2+ Tristana, and Varus.

No, that isnt how it works.

ABILITIES.

They mean 100x more for at least half of the game. And she has nothing outside of her AA range.

Graves has his Q, Jinx has W + rockets, Quinn has her Q, Jayce has his Q, Kogmaw Q + W + E, Lucian Q + W, Sivir Q

When you talk effective range, Vayne has absolutely nothing, her range is pathetic.

VicvictorwAug 16, 20153 votes

{quoted}

No, that isnt how it works.

ABILITIES.

They mean 100x more for at least half of the game. And she has nothing outside of her AA range.

Graves has his Q, Jinx has W + rockets, Quinn has her Q, Jayce has his Q, Kogmaw Q + W + E, Lucian Q + W, Sivir Q

When you talk effective range, Vayne has absolutely nothing, her range is pathetic.

Oh, hey, Vayne has abilities too. Good ones.

She's amazingly mobile, has hard CC, knockbacks, and shreds ridiculous amounts of health.

This is generally excused by "She has short range!"

So do a lot of other champs, but you don't see them nuking tremendous amounts of damage with autoattacks without being heavily fed.

Effective range? Vayne's tumble closes 300 units, making her "effective range" 850; more if you want to count the additional distance she can cover while stealthed from her ultimate.

DurzakaAug 16, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Oh, hey, Vayne has abilities too. Good ones.

She's amazingly mobile, has hard CC, knockbacks, and shreds ridiculous amounts of health.

This is generally excused by "She has short range!"

So do a lot of other champs, but you don't see them nuking tremendous amounts of damage with autoattacks without being heavily fed.

Effective range? Vayne's tumble closes 300 units, making her "effective range" 850; more if you want to count the additional distance she can cover while stealthed from her ultimate.

First, I never said Vayne wasnt a problem. I said removing her max hp true damage would make her absolutely worthless as an ADC.

Second, that is NOT how effective range works. Tumble puts her physical body 300 units closer. She is still attacking from 550 units away. That is not range, and that is not safe.

VicvictorwAug 16, 20151 votes

{quoted}

First, I never said Vayne wasnt a problem. I said removing her max hp true damage would make her absolutely worthless as an ADC.

Second, that is NOT how effective range works. Tumble puts her physical body 300 units closer. She is still attacking from 550 units away. That is not range, and that is not safe.

Following that tumble with a condemn is quite safe, however, and if the target happens to be close to a wall, it's probably a kill. Killing your opponent is a completely safe trade, assuming you're not being dumb about it and diving a 1v3.

"Effective range" ties into a champion's zone, which is the general area of threat a champ has based on the ranges of their kit. Jarvan's melee but you have to keep into account his ability to leap towards you. His "effective range" is the range on his EQ/ultimate. Whether the champ has flash up is also taken into account.

If you want to count Flash too that would give Vayne an effective range of the 425 flash + 300 tumble+ 550 range = 1275.

She could potentially kill you from 1275 units away, slightly farther than a Caitlyn Q.

DurzakaAug 16, 20151 votes

Following a tumble into a condemn is literally nothing. You just dealt about 50 extra damage.

Condemning them into a wall is no different from any other bot lane engaging on another. That isnt what the discussion is about.

See, this is where people are confused. Vayne's laning phase is INCREDIBLY weak. Her problem is that despite being really weak in lane, she is really SAFE in lane. Which allows her to just farm and stay away from the enemy (because she has no hope of actually winning a fight against the enemy).

VicvictorwAug 16, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Following a tumble into a condemn is literally nothing. You just dealt about 50 extra damage.

Condemning them into a wall is no different from any other bot lane engaging on another. That isnt what the discussion is about.

See, this is where people are confused. Vayne's laning phase is INCREDIBLY weak. Her problem is that despite being really weak in lane, she is really SAFE in lane. Which allows her to just farm and stay away from the enemy (because she has no hope of actually winning a fight against the enemy).

If she's safe in lane, she does not have a weak laning phase. Her kit allows her to get farmed up, which ultimately is the point of being an ADC in lane.

If she had a weak laning phase you wouldn't see people picking her toplane.

Whether she can kill an enemy ADC in lane is either dictated by a tremendous skill gap or which support is better, as with any ADC.

DurzakaAug 16, 20151 votes

Having a safe lane is not the same as having a weak lane.

People pick her top lane because she can bully the shit out of a bunch of melee in the game. That doesnt translate into ADC at all.

Kuroi86Aug 16, 20151 votes

Vayne's not allowed to cite her range as a disadvantage when her kit has that much mobility.

This is typically talking about poke, which Vayne really doesn't have any. This isn't an end all/be all for her laning, but it means champs with poke have a natural advantage should the player know how to take advantage of the additional range of said poke. Whether Vayne is at a disadvantage or not is nearly entirely dependent upon player skill.

Shroom JunkieAug 16, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I'm just saying it would basically negate her laning phase against another ADC because her damage would just be gone.

Exactly! She's a fucking monster late game, why should her laning phase be better than Jinx or some shit?

DurzakaAug 15, 20151 votes

Because she is also an ADC.

There is literally no reason to pick her if she cant also do well as an ADC.

Drunken YasuoAug 15, 20155 votes

why? just make her shitty against squishies when she is a "tankshredder". she is a squishy destroyer AND tank destroyer right now.

just remove flat damage and change to %bonus HP true damage so she is a tank shredder and mediocre against squishies.

JustMyBassCannonAug 15, 20159 votes

That's not a rational way to think about it when Vayne's power budget takes into account Silver Bolts.

If it suddenly wasn't doing any damage to squishy champions, Vayne would become the weakest early-game Marksman in the game, bar none.

TurquoiseYoshiAug 15, 20151 votes

Which she makes up for in dueling power and late-game scaling. Yes, removing it would make her weak, but a slight buff to a base stat (AD per level?) could kinda make up for what she lost.

JustMyBassCannonAug 15, 20151 votes

In order for it to make up for the loss in power, she would need more than a slight buff to base stats.

Not to mention that stacking resistances would basically screw her over early-game.

TurquoiseYoshiAug 15, 20152 votes

OH NO! STACKING RESISTANCES HURTS A CHAMPION'S EARLY GAME! IT ISN'T LIKE EVERY CARRY CHAMPION IN THE GAME CAN BE AFFECTED BY THAT!

If this is a serious problem, your top or mid laners (or even a Runeglaive jungler) need to build more AP. Because stacking either AD or AP is not a smart strategy. Team Impulse learned that earlier today.

JustMyBassCannonAug 15, 20152 votes

{quoted}

OH NO! STACKING RESISTANCES HURTS A CHAMPION'S EARLY GAME! IT ISN'T LIKE EVERY CARRY CHAMPION IN THE GAME CAN BE AFFECTED BY THAT!

Oh no! The implications of a change are lost upon the person suggesting them! It isn't like every other last bad idea on the Boards has that problem!

If this is a serious problem, your top or mid laners (or even a Runeglaive jungler) need to build more AP. Because stacking either AD or AP is not a smart strategy. Team Impulse learned that earlier today.

I don't even know what you're trying to say there. Possibly suggesting that the team comp needs to be mixed damage, which goes without saying.

TurquoiseYoshiAug 16, 20151 votes

Yes, I am trying to imply that a team comp needs mixed damage. If an enemy is able to stack armor, then the AP member of your team should be able to shit all over them.

JustMyBassCannonAug 16, 20152 votes

Which goes without saying, as I said.

And when your specific job is to take down tanks easier than the average Marksman, suddenly not being able to do your job is fucking stupid.

walgaubananaAug 15, 20157 votes

For how huge her late game is, I think Vayne needs to have the worst early-game among the ADCs in the game.

Right now, her late game is so easily accessible since she's so fucking safe in lane. All she can do is farm in lane and play safe until she completes her item 3153 then she becomes a 1v1 god. Seriously, poke lane aren't useful against her since she builds item 3144 and sustain a lot, engage lanes aren't that useful too since she can E then Q back to safety and SUSTAIN the damage dealt with . Plus, if her support is someone like Janna or Thresh , good fucking luck trying to attack Vayne early game.

Seriously, I think we should gut her early game and leave her late game as it is right now. For example, here's what I suggest:

- Base AD reduced to 48 from 53.

Seriously, a weak early game ADC shouldn't fucking have the same ammount of AD as a lane bully like Lucian or Graves.

- Armor per level reduced to 2.7 from 3.4.

Again, it promotes her to have counterplay and she should die quickly if she's getting focused. No more "LELEL SUSTAIN BACK TO FULL HP CUZ item 3153 LELELELE"

- Attack Speed per level reduced to 2.5% from 4%.

See below for context.

- Silver Bolts: Now passively grants 5/10/15/20/25% Attack Speed

- Upon proc'ing three marks of Silver Bolts on an enemy champion, this attack speed bonus is doubled for 3 seconds. This effect can occur only once every 5 seconds.

- Flat true damage removed

- % Max Health True Damage ratio increased to 4/5.5/7/8.5/10%

Basically, I focused these changes, so it would remove some of Vayne's early game power and transfer it into the late game even more. Here, I added an Attack Speed bonus on Vayne's W, so she has to max it, so she can compensate for that Attack Speed per level nerf, and usually, since Vaynes max their W second, she'll have it maxed until lvl 13, during the mid-late game. Plus, I added another steroid upon proc'ing the mark, so she'll still have a greater amount of attack speed than before, thus buffing her late game to compensate for the early game nerfs. I added a "cooldown" on this steroid, so there's some times where Vayne is vulnerable and it's okay to fight her when you know her steroid is on "cooldown". I removed the flat true damage, because honestly, she shouldn't have that much power against squishies. She's a tank buster! She's supposed to be good against tanks, not against everyone! So yeah, I removed this. To compensate, I increased the % max health damage, so it's more effective against tanks to emphasis her tank buster nature. Basically, these changes are intended to shift some of her early game power into the late game, making her a real monster late game, but rewards the enemy laner for punishing her correctly early.

Thoughts?

JustMyBassCannonAug 16, 20151 votes

Now this is a more rationally-minded set of changes, making her early-game weakness more pronounced and making her rely more on her late-game strength to succeed.

Much better than scaling damage on a target's bonus HP, of all things.

NarasimhaAug 16, 20152 votes

god. Seriously, poke lane aren't useful against her since she builds

Speaking as a semi-Sona main, this is dead wrong. Unless the other support is Soraka, 90% of the time the enemy Vayne is run out of lane because she can't keep up with the poke, and she doesn't have the damage to weaken my adc either. And the gold lead becomes apparent when Vayne comes back with a Cutlass, and mine already has enough for a BFS.

Kuroi86Aug 16, 20152 votes

Only thing I'd change is instead of silver bolts giving her %AS per rank, just up her AS per lvl and have the silver bolt proc give her a small AS/MS boost. Shifts more power to her late game as opposed to just leveling Silver Bolts first and also promotes focused fire. Just my thought though. Another idea is to shift the flat AD in her ult to % AD, this way she can't just stack AS then ult and go off on someone like a .45

RisurinAug 16, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Drunken Yasuo,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LUnEf38O,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2015-08-15T21:33:29.793+0000)

why? just make her shitty against squishies when she is a "tankshredder". she is a squishy destroyer AND tank destroyer right now.

just remove flat damage and change to %bonus HP true damage so she is a tank shredder and mediocre against squishies.

I mean, every single adc in the game can kill a squishy fast... vayne might do it faster then a few.

BTW :

Vayne's [W] Silver bolt at rank 5 is 60 + 8% max hp true damage

lets compare to another reliable source of true damage : Olaf [E] Reckless Swing at rank 5 is 250 +40% ad on 8 sec cd reduced by 1 per autos

A normal carry (squishy) will have around 2k hp at lvl 18 (thats like 9 in defense tree, and no hp items)

8% of 2k = 160 | 160 +60 = 220 true damage on 3rd consecutive hit

Olaf base damage on E is higher, and scale with AD. With 40 cd its a bit less then 5 sec, and olaf passive helps him get more autos in to reduce the cd further. With his ult he get 80 bonus AD, that mean if olaf have 0 ad from any other source then his ult (no runes, no masteries, no items) he get +~80 true damage naturally from his base hp + ult ( (base ad 119 + ult ad 80) *0.4 = 79.6)

Olaf deals 330 true damage per E on a like 4.something cd reduced by 1sec per AA.

Vayne has to focus one target at a time to proc silver bolts and take care about positionning a lot. Olaf, if he build bruiser-ish can go ham with CC immunity and still deal a lot of damage before the end of a fight.

you see its not really far from it, you can say that vayne has mobility and can outplay with her Q, and thats correct. Olaf has build in sustain, can wave clear a lot better, and since E refund cost on kill, can last hit easily. + he get natural tankyness from his ult passive, which he trade for a ton of AD when he becomes immune to CCs and get movespeed with the active, which allows him to build full tank after like 1 or 2 damage item. 2 different champion sure, but the point is their true damage source isnt far off each other.

And in fact, a lot of people dont know that, because all they see is the silver rings around the champions, but vaynes true damage is around 20% of her total damage output. Armour is still highly effective and Silver Bolt is really not op, specially if you consider the lack of waveclear and her range.

Chaotic ReksAug 16, 20151 votes

vayne is ranged and has mobility.

RisurinAug 16, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=NyX Reks,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LUnEf38O,comment-id=0001000100010000,timestamp=2015-08-16T06:59:10.957+0000)

vayne is ranged and has mobility.

olaf has a spammable slow, build in sustain, cc immunity. Your point ?

Chaotic ReksAug 16, 20151 votes

olaf is highly vulnerable to kiting, can't do shit when he is being focused with his ult on cooldown. vayne can just tumble away and condemn him even with his ult active because it serves as a displacement, and then she can just kite him to hell.

RisurinAug 17, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=NyX Reks,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LUnEf38O,comment-id=000100010001000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-16T23:58:56.229+0000)

olaf is highly vulnerable to kiting, can't do shit when he is being focused with his ult on cooldown. vayne can just tumble away and condemn him even with his ult active because it serves as a displacement, and then she can just kite him to hell.

good thing his ult, which has a low CD, give him speed toward champion and his Q slow people down then! Condemn just deal damage and no knockback with olaf ult? Vayne tumble for 300 unit range, olaf E has 325 range. if you are getting outplayed it something else.

Kuroi86Aug 16, 20151 votes

Most peoples issue with Vayne isn't her true damage. Though many seem to think it's too much. The big reason Vayne is so strong even against squishies, she has high base AD, base AS, her tumble gives her next auto an extra 50% AD and her ult grants 30/50/70 AD when active.
While Vayne lacks proper poke, she has the stats in her kit to make any auto hurt if she really wants it to.

RisurinAug 16, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Most peoples issue with Vayne isn't her true damage. Though many seem to think it's too much. The big reason Vayne is so strong even against squishies, she has high base AD, base AS, her tumble gives her next auto an extra 50% AD and her ult grants 30/50/70 AD when active.
While Vayne lacks proper poke, she has the stats in her kit to make any auto hurt if she really wants it to.

perhaps that why her base stats are high ? because she has no poke or waveclear like other ad? Tumble only give +50% ad on next attack, if she max it. early-mid game(around lvl 9) if she has maxed this, she hasnt maxed her w yet. most people max W first, and anyway since her build path is usually bork first, she doesnt get as much ad from item early as other ad with ie.

I'm not sure if her base AS is that high, but her AS growths (per lvl) is definatly really good, which make sense with hypercarries. other then that, yeah her ult give her AD, but its an ultimate ability. you except it to do something strong.

anyway, i just assume its true damage, because all the complains i see are about the true damage, and a few about mobility. I dont think there is anything too weak or too strong about vayne.

CubedJusticeAug 15, 20152 votes

Vayne is a tank shredder. And a bruiser shredder. And a carry shredder, and a support shredder, and a jungler shredder.

TurquoiseYoshiAug 15, 20152 votes

You forgot neutral monster shredder.

CubedJusticeAug 16, 20152 votes

http://schmoesknow.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Shredder_by_RaananZ.jpg

SlaktarTaskenAug 16, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Vayne is a tank shredder. And a bruiser shredder. And a carry shredder, and a support shredder, and a jungler shredder.

Might as well just slap her on the buttock and call her Shredder.

XxxLumberJackxxXAug 16, 20152 votes

She's aslo a 1v1 duelist, a teamfighter, and a hyper carry

Reaper SorakaAug 16, 20152 votes

Funny how she is pictured as a tank shredder, and squishy players look at her max HP% as the problem when they get like 3-4shot.

Check out how much damage her Tumble did next time, when you have less than 3000 health and 100 armor. (My prediction: 45% Tumble, 20-30% auto attacks, 5-10% from her true damage passive. rest knockback ability / misc.)