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Changing Thresh (Champion Legacies and Identity)

Ironclad Dragon··20 votes·3,122 views

Let's talk Thresh. Well, let's talk about a number of champions in general, but I'm gonna use Thresh to spearhead this discussion. http://img01.deviantart.net/8259/i/2013/083/b/a/happy_thresh_by_inkinesss-d5z1ovf.jpg Now, all of you should know who Thresh is. He's one of the most popular supports in the game, and for good reason; his expansive arsenal of tools makes him welcome in almost any team comp. The dude's flexible, fun to play, and unquestionability useful. But for that reason, he's a bit polarizing. A body of people argue his flexibility makes him overshadow other supports. They cry out to tone him down, but credit Thresh's seeming invulnerability to the LCS and competitive scene, which is "all about the flashy plays and outmaneuvers", which Thresh provides the most of in all the supports. That isn't to say Thresh is the absolute best pick; Thresh doesn't have a tool for every instance, and a novice Thresh can feel pressured to excel since they are, after all, playing Thresh.

Even if the competitive scene doesn't have as much say on Thresh's kit as some people believe, changing him isn't as easy as it looks. He was designed by Riot CertainlyT, who's (in)famous for designing champions with similarly hearty kits (Kalista, Yasuo and Darius are the most often cited of CertainlyT's work, and usually in a negative light; people seem to forget he also made Zyra). These kits are made inherently robust by their raw mechanics, so tweaking their numbers doesn't affect them as greatly, for good or ill, as they would on other champs. No matter how their numbers fluctuate, these champions can never seem to catch a break. No matter what spot they're in, there are people who call for further change, claiming the champions' issues haven't been resolved at all and that they still need to be "fixed".

But if something is easily corrected, wouldn't it have already been done? Again, these "problem" champions are inherently strong from the nature of their kits. So if there's indeed a serious problem in Thresh's kit (to go back to him), it lies in his kit's roots, and to fix it, you have to make changes that aren't discreet. Let's dissect this:

Thresh's flexibility is what makes him so useful and so polarizing. Number tweaks won't change the fact that he has more tools than most supports –ergo, we take away one or two of his tools. Okay then . . . what are you willing to shave off? If he doesn't collect souls, he isn't really Thresh; he needs souls to build his armor and makes up a huge piece of his in-game personality. Without it, we'd lose a unique gameplay mechanic makes him distinct from all other champs, not just Supports. His pull's pretty integral to who he is as well. Get rid of the passive component of Flay? The AD Thresh crowd just got the boot (and they certainly wouldn't be happy about that), restricting him to Support. His ultimate is what encourages him to pull himself into a fight (diving would be a lot less tempting without it, no?) or punish someone for diving onto his partners.

So we've accomplished . . . nothing. And that's what I want to highlight. Everything about Thresh's kit almost seems integral to him. No one's ever pleased when a champion is reduced to a shadow of their former selves. Imagine it if viewed in retrospect; there's a fine line between making "It was a good change in the end" and "He just isn't what he used to be".

Keep that mind. Remember earlier when I mentioned other champs? Well, here's where I'm talking about them. This section is about champion legacies, or how "good deeds aren't always wise". Certain things about certain champions are cemented into the community's vision of them. https://38.media.tumblr.com/f0fbfe5b9a23f2b13fda38451b1a6bac/tumblr_ndk20zVAat1tvo2c3o1_r1_500.gif Take Shen. Shen is a ninja, yet he's a tank. Riot puts a lot of effort into matching a champion's thematics with their gameplay. Here's a quote from Riot Meddler about this clash of themes:

Shen's an interesting one. There's definitely some mismatch between his theme and his gameplay. Mechanically he's a health stacking tank who gradually grinds you down, bit of a contrast to his image as a 'traditional' looking ninja and the expectations of speed, damage, stealth, assassination etc that go with it. We'd aim to avoid such a mismatch if making him today, he's got an established playstyle and players though so it's not necessarily appropriate to try and change that at this point. There are also some elements to him that are pretty ninja like as well to be fair, the sudden appearance from out of nowhere with the ult and the 'surprise, caught you off guard as I went past' of his E.

I'd like to underline that point (darn you, lack of underline function!). I find that fascinating. The dude is a ninja, yet because he was designed as a tank, that aspect of his being can't be done away with, no matter how much sense it'd make. Shen is an older champ to, so him being a tank as well as a ninja is too deeply ingrained into the League Community's culture/psyche to risk changing (some of you might cough Mordekaiser, in light of recent changes). Little to no good would come from trying to reshape what's become bedrock in the community's mindscape. So Riot wants to keep him a tank. That is the power of champion legacies (again, some of you might cough Mordekaiser; but however do you cough words fluently?)

So what are you willing to sacrifice for the "good" of the game? Is it even good for the game to leave a champion a shadow of what they once were? Or are you willing to endure what one might consider a necessary evil? Perhaps I'm being too philosophical about this, and am totally wrong about Thresh and Kalista and all those other "problem" champs. So what I'm wrong? I welcome any discussion. I like to think I am a reasonable person, and my opinions can be swayed. Lay it on me, brother or sister.

16 Comments

ArkenStorm9 votes

cough MORDEKAISER coughcough

Demonsolder211 votes

Srsly though mord adc....that just takes the cake.

ArkenStorm1 votes

It's stupid strong with the right support/with an ally, if you are on your own you are instagibbed though. solved no problems old morde had, while introducing some new ones(lower mobility), and completely changed his gameplay identity. Bad idea.

Rew7111 votes

Take him mid, throw on this: item 3074 then some critical like item 3087 and item 3046 and lastly get item 3091 to allow his Q to deal maximum damage (it takes away MR, 5 per hit, up to 25 and Morde's Q is magic damage though it scales well with AD).

ArkenStorm1 votes

you do ravenous and not titanic? eh, either way I suppose. So you're saying something like this? item 3087 item 3158 item 3074 item 3091 item 3065 item 3742 I would take out item 3091 and replace it with item 3116 , but IDK, i'll test that out I guess. Thanks for the suggestion.

Rew7111 votes

Nah, I mean flat item 3074 (or item 3748 as either are fine) and then item 3087 item 3142 item 3046 for MS and AS boosts and even item 3031 then get item 3091 which would be much better than the other item. If you want more health, it would be better to get item 3151 but getting this item is controversial. You're build looks pretty messed up, lol, as the boots are really not needed since he has no cool down problems, getting one of the Hydra's should be better and enough than those two tank items. I think you might still be in the Tank meta, sadly its about to end and Morde needs power out of either AP or AD.

Teridax684 votes

I agree that champions evolve organically, and some parts of their kits or personality become so deeply ingrained within their community that a "by-the-book" rework or set of changes, i.e. one that just tries to play to the champion's official role, identity, strengths and weaknesses, etc., wouldn't work, even if releasing the same champion in said reworked state in the first place would probably have generated more positive feedback.

With that said, there's a difference between wanting to preserve parts of a champion that are iconic to them, and simply refusing to have them change at all. The forum community here tends to be very conservative (even when asking for balance changes), and a lot of popular opinions here (e.g. "true damage/mobility/displacement is OP", "assassins are toxic", etc.) don't necessarily reflect the view of the larger community or the feedback Riot receives when implementing new content. Thresh seems to be creating a pretty even split within the forums, too, so one side's proposed changes or status quo will never fully satisfy the other.

In the case of Thresh, specifically, I think his Flay passive is the odd one out: sure, it's what makes AD Thresh, who's a thing for a certain amount of players (it's also an extremely gimmicky build that doesn't really synergize with the rest of his kit or base itself off of an entirely healthy premise, since it only works by one-shotting squishies, but that's my own opinion), but aside from that it's not really power that defines Thresh overall, and he's a champion who does way too much already. Perhaps that's not what should get pared off, but ultimately if the choice comes down to either pissing off AD Thresh's fanbase or leaving him in a state that crowds out a huge amount of other support picks, then I think the former choice would be preferrable, since it would eventually be more beneficial overall. It doesn't even have to be about making the champion "a shadow of their former self", either: a common issue with unhealthy or overloaded champions is that their power tends to be extremely diluted, difficult to access, or just less than it should be for them to become strong, and so in Thresh's case, making him good at fewer things would allow him to be better at them (he could have better repositioning on his Flay active, for example, or improvements to Dark Passage or The Box).

With respect to larger and messier balance changes, though, I think gutting a single problematic champion would be preferrable to leaving them in a state of high influence. By gutting a champion, Riot pisses of an entire subcommunity of fans, which can often be pretty large and gain a lot more support following the nerf, but by leaving a champion in a state where they're problematic and widely played, that champion lessens the enjoyment of far more players and thereby creates a more negative impact overall. I don't think Thresh needs to be nerfed explicitly, since he's not overbearing at anything he does and creates hugely positive experiences, but he's likely going to have to eventually concentrate on fewer core strengths to bring some fresh air to the support landscape, and the same might have to be done to similarly overloaded champions like Kalista or Yasuo (Kalista does have some genuine gameplay health issues though, imo, so she might need more than just kit de-loading).

Zenthon Prime3 votes

The issue is that Riot waits too long or doesn't adknowledge problematic mechanics at all in the first two patches after a release. That would solve the issue easily because there wouldn't be any mains to offend, but I'm not sure Riot is willing to do this. An example of a champion this owuld have fixed is Kalista, who could have had her jump passive removed from the game within a patch or two and thus be a far more healthy champion.

Then there's older champions that just need certain skills or mechanics gutted or removed, but as you said Riot's afraid to do it. There's quite a few examples: Riven's animation cancelling, Fizz's trollpole, Teemo shrooms, Morde's shield, at least one of Thresh's abilities (probably hook), Yasuo's double crit, Vlad's Q/E, Olaf's ult, Lee's wardhop, Nid's spear and/or heal, Elise's Rappel, and so on.

These elements severely limit these champions from ever providing a healthy gameplay experience because they enable plays that shouldn't exist (Fizz, Elise), warp a champion's balance based on that spell/mechanic alone (Yas, Riven, Teemo), completely make up for a champion's supposed weaknesses (Thresh, Lee, Nid) or are simply fundamentally broken (Olaf, Morde, Vlad).

Nameless Voice2 votes

I'd argue that, while preserving a character's legacy is important, it's not as important as the health of the game as a whole.

If a champion is in such a state that they define an entire role around them, where the champions you can and cannot pick depend on their existence, then there's something wrong there. Thresh partly falls into that category, though he's not such a strong case that he completely crowds out other choices (other supports can usually do just fine against him, he's just often the better pick.)

Other champions like Kalista (completely invalidates a lot of supports, mages and fighters by her very existence) are a far bigger problem. You can argue that a mechanic like hopping is an iconic part of her kit, but it's such a polarising skill that I don't think it can ever be healthy in League without changing it very significantly. When you have something like that, it needs to be changed for the good of the health of the game as a whole, even if it comes at the expensive of annoying the people who main that champion.

SettDownShutUp1 votes

I'm coughing Mordekaiser so hard it could be mistaken for an asthma attack.

Ceronous1 votes

I can't hammer the up vote hard enough. There are some things that just make champions so broken but have existed for so long that we just accept the pain. Some things would gut a champion, but as much as we bitch and moan about OP champs, there are at least two that will never be not broken unless an ability or two is just redone. See trollpole and double crit. An assassin being able to just nope out so easily is wrong, and double crit, like whodafuq thought that was a good idea?

CrazedPorcupine1 votes

But then there are champions who have things in their kit which aren't integral to their gameplay or identity.

Let's look at Riven. Riven is widely considered the most frustrating, most toxic and most polarizing champ in all of league of legends, even RIOT themselves said that Riven was a mistake.

Riven's multiple dashes, while frustrating, won't be removed, because they're integral to her Identity, as is her E's dash.

HOWEVER, her E's SHIELD is widely hated and is one of the most commonly asked things for riot to remove or change. Her Ult also has something that most people don't really pay attention to. She get's an AD Rabadon's for free (20% bonus AD boost) as soon as she presses R. This amps up her damage to outrageous levels even if she doesn't have many items.

Riven's R Steroid and her E shield are the two things that Riot could easily nerf/remove/change to try and make Riven more healthy because they aren't integral to her kit the way her E's dash and Q's multiple dashes are.

CoolKnightST1 votes

Honnestly I don't think Thresh is really a problem right now since most of his power comes from be able to blind pick him against against anything. However he still has counterpicks. Champions like Morgana & Sivir can neutralize almost his entire lane phase. Thresh excels in snowball situations where he just can tryout hooks without getting punished for it. When behind thresh plays further back & uses his latern to get people out of nasty situations. But overal having something todo in any situation is actualy healthy for a support and many new supports have this power.

It's not like Thresh is dominating the game. He's similar to Sivir in my option. You litterly can pick her in any situation without getting punished for it. Just like Thresh their are counterpicks but even with that in mind she won't be useless the entire game. She will always have something todo in the game.

But whe didn't come to the final conclusion. Even if Thresh can offer a lot to any teamcomp. His power in every area is not dominated vs other supports. People still pick Braum for his amazing support on kite comps. People can play Bard in heavy rotated games. People can pick Karma because her multi tasking. People still pick Alistar for his amazing engage. People still pick Janna for her amazing peel. People still pick Annie for her amazing all-in. Etc...

Even if Thresh offers so much to the team. He's not the best in everything. So here's the real question. Is it healthy for the game to have a Thresh pick like that.

Zone of Endless1 votes

Remove the slow from his E or the extra damage from his E. His E is already strong enough with the knock back why does he need anything more to make it even stronger?

AzureInTheDark1 votes

Most of what's said above could also go for for Vayne. People always wanna QQ about her %HP True damage, when in reality, it's really the only skill in her kit that even makes her viable. If you take that away from her, you essentially get a Champion that nobody wants to, or would want to play as because she would be wouldn't function with it. It's integral to her identity, along with her tumble and even her Ultimate.

Mordekaiser A lot of people would be coughing Mordekaiser, but I don't see the issue with him. The only thing people talk about with him is that he no longer can use 1 skill by himself. Just about every other aspect of his kit is the same, and or buffed.His Q doesn't hit multiple targets anymore, but now his Q stacks damage three times. His passive remains at 25% out of combat, if in a duo lane he can heal himself and an ally, his E's the same, same goes for his R, except now he can become DRAGONBORN. Eventually people are gonna get used to this, and sooner of later, things will change. People will soon see him as a Metal Man that you should not get near or let near Dragon pit.

The above also goes for Skarner, though in different context.

Either that or they'll be the new Karma people who complain about her rework nonstop, saying that Rito ruined the game because 'Muh main'.

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