I love when someone shoots a skillshot at me, and I dodge it, it just happens to hit a minion, jungle camp, Elise spider, my teammate who can’t dodge. And I lose 1/3 of my hp because scorch, liandries, ludens proc and arcane comet.
Excuse me? Why am I losing 1/3 of my health to something that DIDNT HIT ME?
Hotarµ5 votesWhy am I losing 1/3 of my health to something that DIDNT HIT ME?
You're not, this is just an exaggeration.
Let's assume for the sake of this situation, you have 35 MR and 2,000 max health. We'll assume the enemy has Scorch, Liandry's Torment, Luden's Echo, and Comet. We'll also say that the enemy in this situation has 500 AP.
Scorch does a maximum of 30 damage, Linandry's Torment in this situation would do 90 damage (4.5% of your max health, since you're not getting CCed), Luden's Echo itself would do 150 (100 base + 10% total AP) and Comet does a maximum of 100 base damage (with an additional 100 from AP scaling)
So: 30 + 90 + 150 + 200 = 470.
Now don't forget we have to factor in the Magic Resist you have.
At 35 MR (I'm being insanely generous because most players would have one or two forms of Magic Resist from items, Runes, or stat shards.) you'd be resisting 25% of that damage.
470 reduced by 25% is 352.
That's about 17.5% of your max health or barely 1/5th, which is totally fair considering I didn't count a single source of Magic Resist or bonus health other than levelling. Keep it mind this is a very generous example on my part and would almost never happen in a normal game.
0ur0boros1 votesSo, losing 20% of your health to a skills shot THAT DIDNT EVEN HIT YOU is justifiable in your mind? I guess you missed that part. This guy never wanted to debate the topic of resistances. Also, what ADC or squishy even has MR/Armor now a days? It's situational.
I have felt like the "residual damage" in this game has been ridiculous for a while now.
I would be okay with things the way they are if luden's didn't proc all this extra shit.
Hotarµ1 votesYou don't get to have a conversation about damage and leave out resistances. I did that and it was an egregious example that still didn't match up to the claims that OP made. His claim was that Luden's + all that does X amount of damage, my evidence and specific anecdote shows this isn't possible.
0ur0boros1 votesAll you did was prove he was exaggerating. Congrats! You didn't actually counter his argument except mentioning resistances which are really only applicable to bruisers and tanks now a days. That part is undeniable.
It's really easy to call someone out for exaggerating while ignoring the part of their claim that has merit.
Lets also not forget that luden's was added as a way for mages without waveclear to gain a bit and not for mages to chunk down enemies from afar without even hitting them.
Hotarµ1 votesYeah, I could do without the sarcasm, thanks. The entire point of my original comment was to shut down the exaggerative nature of the post. If OP wants to have a real conversation about the item, there are better and more correct ways to do it.
Please explain to me what "merit" OP has here. He's claiming that Luden's shockwave does a third of his HP which is just ridiculous. If you're arguing that Luden's is strong, I'll gladly agree with you but the shockwave is the one thing that's relatively balanced on the item. It's stellar cost efficiency combined with it's amazing build path and strong CDR make it one of the best items in the game. The shockwave has almost nothing to do with what makes it so good.
0ur0boros1 votesYou could do without the sarcasm? Well, that doesn't mean I will stop being sarcastic. You can shut down his exaggeration all you want. There is nothing wrong with that. But you said that it was completely fair based off the fact that you proved he was exaggerating.
That's about 17.5% of your max health or barely 1/5th, which is totally fair considering I didn't count a single source of Magic Resist or bonus health other than levelling. Keep it mind this is a very generous example on my part and would almost never happen in a normal game.
The merit he has is the part of his argument that DOES have merit.....I.E. that Luden's echo shouldn't proc on-hit spell effects. Honestly if you can't comprehend hyperbole that isn't the OP's fault. If you wanted to agree with him that luden's echo was strong like you claim then why didn't you do so instead of creating this giant strawman argument about resistances. He wasn't arguing resistances, he was arguing that luden's is a bit over-tuned. It's really not that complicated.
We haven't even touched on the fact that these are spells that didn't even hit the player....they hit someone else, or a minion. You lose me when you say that it is fair to lose 20% of your health for playing correctly. Other than that, I agree with you.
Hotarµ1 votesYou could do without the sarcasm? Well, that doesn't mean I will stop being sarcastic.
Well thankfully, I have no problem walking away from a conversation since you don't want to be civil.
But you said that it was completely fair based off the fact that you proved he was exaggerating.
I don't understand what you're talking about. Are you mad because I used an exaggerated scenario to debunk his exaggerated scenario? I stated above that Luden's shockwave is a fairly balanced aspect on it's own, it's the rest of the item that makes it seem overbearing.
Honestly if you can't comprehend hyperbole that isn't the OP's fault.
I clearly can considering I used it in my original comment.
If you wanted to agree with him that luden's echo was strong like you claim then why didn't you do so instead of creating this giant strawman argument about resistances.
Because OP isn't facilitating any sort of discussion. He created a post saying "X is OP, X did 1/3 of my HP, item is a problem" so I responded with an outlandish scenario that didn't even come close to what he claimed. The point of it was to show that no, Luden's isn't inherently broken because of the shockwave and there's no realistic way that this situation happened.
##Hyperbole is not a substitute for evidence or discussion.
He wasn't arguing resistances, he was arguing that luden's is a bit over-tuned. Honestly it's really not that complicated.
You're right, it wasn't. And neither was my response. OP said "Ludens is OP" so I responded "no it isn't, and here's why" and gave evidence. Nobody is misunderstanding anything, and I have no idea what argument you're trying to make.
0ur0boros2 votesLook I don't know what games you're trying to pull but it won't work on me.
Sarcasm isn't uncivil.
Changing someone's argument to fit your narrative does not debunk them, and it's called a strawman argument. (Yes, you did this when you made it about resistances instead of talking about losing 20% of your life when you don't even get directly hit by a spell) Congratulations for debunking an argument he wasn't even trying to make I guess. No one in their right mind would say that resistances aren't useful in this scenario.
I don't think you can understand hyperbole, and if you can, then you haven't shown that to be the case. Also, did you use hyperbole? Do you even know what hyperbole is? Because you definitely didn't say anything hyperbolic.
You're right, he wasn't facilitating discussion, he was being hyperbolic. That's precisely my point.
Also, your example DID come close to what he claimed. He said 1/3 of your life and your math proved it to be about 20%. If you're going to split hairs over 10%....all I can do is laugh. As far as exaggerations go, 10% really is nothing.
Your argument that luden's isn't OP completely ignores the merit he had in his argument, which is that it can chip away 20% of your life when you dont even get hit. You won't even admit that point....which it's fking true man it just is lol. If you're seriously going to say you've never seen it happen, or have it happen to you, then I am going to call you a liar. Honestly its like talking to a wall. Later man.
Hotarµ1 votesStraw Man definition: "an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument."
It would have been a straw man if OP actually had a real argument. Except, as I've stated multiple times, he doesn't have any basis for his claim and there's no realistic scenario when this would occur.
I don't think you can understand hyperbole, and if you can, then you haven't shown that to be the case. Also, did you use hyperbole? Do you even know what hyperbole is? Because you definitely didn't say anything hyperbolic.
Hyperbole: exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.
Kind of like my post detailing the damage Ludens would do if someone had 0 MR, 2k health, and the enemy had 500AP, huh? It's almost like that post was meant to show the outrageous lengths someone would need to go to make Luden's as strong as OP says.
You're right, he wasn't facilitating discussion, he was being hyperbolic. Which is entirely my point.
Okay, using hyperbole isn't a substitute for an argumentative post. It would have worked had Luden's shockwave actually done a decent chunk of damage, as the hyperbole could then be used as an exaggerative comparison to talk about how the item needs tweaking. Is it hyperbole in it's most basic form? Yes, but what does that accomplish? Nothing.
You're reading too much into this. OP wasn't making a grand point or using hyperbole to further a point, it's a rage post about an item that he feels is too strong and it's obvious no effort was put in here considering the fact that he hasn't posted or responded to anything since creating it.
Also, your example DID come close to what he claimed. He said 1/3 of your life and your math proved it to be about 20%. If you're going to split hairs over 10%....lmao.
Okay, first off, my example had someone with 0 MR, a limited HP amount, and an enemy with a fair amount of AP. These factors are impossible to replicate in a normal game, so the fact that this egregious example still did 13% less than his example says a lot. It's not splitting hairs, it's a veritable ocean of differences.
Honestly its like talking to a wall. Later man.
Later!
0ur0boros1 votesLmfao you just don't get it and the fact that you find it necessary to create these absolute wall posts that say absolutely NOTHING....literally nothing..... is evidence of that.
P.S. That's not what a strawman argument is.
A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man."
Took me literally 2 seconds to google that but I guess you couldn't be bothered.
Hotarµ1 votesI addressed every single one of your complaints, though. :P
0ur0boros1 votesDid you though? You still haven't acknowledged anything about what I've said or OP has said that is true. But that's okay I get it.
Hotarµ1 votesYes, I did. I addressed any reasonable claims about the item being overpowered, I addressed the lack of claims from OP, I addressed why I used an exaggerative scenario in my original response, and I addressed your claims that what I said was a strawman argument and how you claimed I didn't know what hyperbole is.
Sounds like everything is dealt with :p
0ur0boros1 votesI mean if you want to call those "addresses" then sure. Your response and subsequent math only served to prove that he really wasn't exaggerating that much. Another thing that is funny is that you claim your scenario is exaggerative. It really isn't. Most ADC don't build any sort of MR/resistances until 4th or 5th item maybe 3rd. Caitlyn, at level 18 has 2028 health with a cap of 38.5 base MR at level 18. If you don't believe me on this, watch any streamer, look up any build. You will see that their often ONLY defensive item is more of a late game purchase. But still all of this is completely irrelevant because we're talking about fking spells that DON'T EVEN HIT YOU. That's not even taking into account the fact that the item prioritizes champions when the echo triggers. So in theory it could chunk not 1, but a max of 4 players for 20% of their life....on a spell that hit one person. So yea, you go on thinking you've addressed these claims. We've only scratched the surface.
What you've engaged in is blatant dismissal of anything that pokes holes in your logic. The fact that I have to keep repeating myself is only further evidence that I am, in fact, speaking to a wall. But at this point it's kind of my own fault now isn't it?
Hotarµ1 votesYour response and subsequent math only served to prove that he really wasn't exaggerating that much.
I addressed this above with your "splitting hairs" comment.
Another thing that is funny is that you claim your scenario is exaggerative. It really isn't. Most ADC don't build any sort of MR/resistances until 4th or 5th item maybe 3rd. Caitlyn, at level 18 has 2028 health with a cap of 38.5 base MR at level 18.
Again, I addressed this above when I stated that there's a large difference between having 0 resistances and the 30-50 that most champions get as base resistances.
But still all of this is completely irrelevant because we're talking about fking spells that DON'T EVEN HIT YOU.
In an average game, Luden's will usually hit for 90-140 damage.
So in theory it could chunk not 1, but a max of 4 players for 20% of their life....on a spell that hit one person.
No. No chance of Luden's chunking that heavily in an average game with just the shockwave.
So yea, you go on thinking you've addressed these claims. We've only scratched the surface.
When you come to me with other claims, we can discuss them freely.
Until then, I've addressed every single point you brought up.
Dr Dog2 votesscorch does pretty much no dmg with a literal max of 30 dmg, if your getting a 3rd of your hp taken out by that you must be really far behind with literally no mr, only issue with ludens rn is that lost chapter removes the need to buy any other mana item on 90% of mid laners
The thigh guy3 votes[{quoted}](name=Dr Dog,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LQozbdYh,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-01-04T18:47:42.990+0000)
scorch does pretty much no dmg with a literal max of 30 dmg, if your getting a 3rd of your hp taken out by that you must be really far behind with literally no mr, only issue with ludens rn is that lost chapter removes the need to buy any other mana item on 90% of mid laners
341 damage from a skillshot that missed you. With just a liandries and a ludens.
usul12021 votesAnd 500 AP.... With 0 defense built, or you being melee.
Glîtchy1 votesOh yes, let's complain about the last notable items mages have since Morello is now complete shit compared to it's previous version.
The thigh guy1 votesOh yes, let's complain about the last notable items mages have since Morello is now complete shit compared to it's previous version.
Let me say this one more time. You are getting free damage, upwards of 1/4th of someone’s health, for a spell, you FUCKING missed
Explain to me why I should be losing THAT much health to something I dodged.
ZephyrDrake1 votes[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LQozbdYh,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-01-17T05:30:03.900+0000)
Let me say this one more time. You are getting free damage, upwards of 1/4th of someone’s health, for a spell, you FUCKING missed
Explain to me why I should be losing THAT much health to something I dodged.
Because you also are taking a hell of a lot of more damage than just Luden's? You are complaining about someone using a very specific build and you having no resistances while being a squishy champion.
The thigh guy1 votesBecause you also are taking a hell of a lot of more damage than just Luden's? You are complaining about someone using a very specific build and you having no resistances while being a squishy champion.
YOU MISSED YOUR ABILITY. You know what happens when an adc misses and ability? Nothing. How about a bruiser? Nothing. Tank? Nothing. Assassin? Nothing. Support? Nothing.
Ludens REWARDS you for missing something. It punishes your opponent for existing.
The amount isn’t even fucking relevant. I should not be taking damage for something that fucking missed me.
Psyrix1 votesyes, because stattic shiv and runaans don't exist.
The thigh guy1 votesyes, because stattic shiv and runaans don't exist.
Static shiv is very very different, being that it doesn’t scale, and you didn’t dodge anything.
Same with runnanas. You didn’t dodge anything.
Ludens is “you dodged this, take damage anyways.”
Psyrix1 votes:/ the thing is.. u didnt dodge anything if u were hit by the ludens proc, stay out of the splash zone (thus away from minions) then u've dodged it. it's no different from an ADC hitting a minion and the shiv proc going through minions and hitting u. Runaans does scale (40% ad) and it, and shiv, can both crit. thereby invariably dealing more dmg than ludens. Most mages dont't get more than 1000 AP, and ludens by itself does 100+10% AP.. therefore it, by itself is almsot always dealing less than 200 AP dmg even with scorch. Liandry's is another item in its entirety and is honestly kinda niche atm. Stattikk can, and often does, deal more damage than ludens
The thigh guy1 votes:/ the thing is.. u didnt dodge anything if u were hit by the ludens proc, stay out of the splash zone (thus away from minions) then u've dodged it. it's no different from an ADC hitting a minion and the shiv proc going through minions and hitting u. Runaans does scale (40% ad) and it, and shiv, can both crit. thereby invariably dealing more dmg than ludens. Most mages dont't get more than 1000 AP, and ludens by itself does 100+10% AP.. therefore it, by itself is almsot always dealing less than 200 AP dmg even with scorch. Liandry's is another item in its entirety and is honestly kinda niche atm. Stattikk can, and often does, deal more damage than ludens
sigh w/e. With your thought process there’s no point in arguing with you. You’re likely the same person who said 88% winrate kassadin was balanced because you just dodge his kit and don’t he near him.
Psyrix1 votesOh Ik Kassadin was, and still is to an extent, unbalanced, what I’m saying is that ludens has a similar splash range to Zoe’s Q splash and the mechanic itself is similar to to stattikk... the way u play around it is by not being in the minionwave. Ur complaint in itself takes 1 thing and ignores that their are other circumstances that went into it doing a lot of damage (not even that much dmg tbh). A significant amount that could be ignored by taking one mr item. The proc itself takes a while to charge up... if anything u could argue for a more prominent indicator of when it is up.
ZephyrDrake1 votes[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LQozbdYh,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-17T11:54:30.113+0000)
YOU MISSED YOUR ABILITY. You know what happens when an adc misses and ability? Nothing. How about a bruiser? Nothing. Tank? Nothing. Assassin? Nothing. Support? Nothing.
Ludens REWARDS you for missing something. It punishes your opponent for existing.
The amount isn’t even fucking relevant. I should not be taking damage for something that fucking missed me.
Sorry but you got hit by the AoE effect of something. This is pretty much you complaining that an ability that has an AoE component to it managed to hit you even though you dodged the main thing. You got hit by something that on its own does next to no damage the later the game goes. You can complain all you want, it's irrelevant and pointless since YOU GOT HIT BY SOMETHING!
The thigh guy1 votesSorry but you got hit by the AoE effect of something. This is pretty much you complaining that an ability that has an AoE component to it managed to hit you even though you dodged the main thing. You got hit by something that on its own does next to no damage the later the game goes. You can complain all you want, it's irrelevant and pointless since YOU GOT HIT BY SOMETHING!
It’s not a dodgeable aoe. :/ that’s like saying “don’t interact with them” is counterplay.
ZephyrDrake2 votes[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LQozbdYh,comment-id=000200000000000000010000,timestamp=2019-01-17T21:30:37.468+0000)
It’s not a dodgeable aoe. :/ that’s like saying “don’t interact with them” is counterplay.
Oh noes! The great 100 base damage that has a 10% ratio! All that damage! You can build MR, not be close to something that could get hit, use shields, heals, spellshields, any skill that makes you immune to damage among so many other things. You got hit by something plain and simple. You want to prevent the damage or mitigate it? Well like I already showed there are multiple ways of achieving this.
The thigh guy1 votesOh noes! The great 100 base damage that has a 10% ratio! All that damage! You can build MR, not be close to something that could get hit, use shields, heals, spellshields, any skill that makes you immune to damage among so many other things. You got hit by something plain and simple. You want to prevent the damage or mitigate it? Well like I already showed there are multiple ways of achieving this.
Way to ignore the ENTIRE point of the post. :/.
You completely ignore that it APPLIES SPELL EFFECTS. that’s a pretty big fucking deal.
Upwards of 8% max burn, arcane comet, scorch and then the 100 + 10% ap.
If it was just 100+10% ap sure fine w/e. But that’s 4 fucking effects over something I dodged.
How about you lose 1/4 of your hp to an adc who never even hit you? Maybe let tanks just auto cc you. Assassins auto kill you? (Oh wait they already do)
Psyrix1 votesUmm... u are aware that already pretty much happens late game. And ur entire argument hinges on late game damage numbers... and even then ludens doesn’t proc with each spellcast, it has to stack to 100 before it can proc.