Ziggs as ADC highlights a few things

Rock MD··3 votes·1,127 views

ADC role is opening up to diversity. While this sounds like a good thing, it is a double-edged sword.

  1. It acknowledges that turrets are embarrassing right now. There are so many scenarios where first turret falls in bot lane, and combined with an autopusher like Ziggs, it will reinforce the very stale push down bot asap with 4 players meta.

  2. With the exception of a few adcs, marksmen are particularly weak. This isn't to say that their power levels aren't appropriate for what they do. It just points out the game snowballs so quickly that unless the marksmen get left alone to kill each other and snowball their lead to a win (which rarely happens when you, as the jungler, can collect a whopping 1k gold off two kills and a tower), they become irrelevant for most of the game. Especially when someone ultra tanky like Poppy teleports bot for that first tower gold, as witnessed in that Draven and Poppy video that's top of the page on reddit.

There are a few solutions to fixing this.

  1. Nerf Ziggs. This is the boring solution but, as a Ziggs player, I've noticed his tower damage in the late-game is way out of line. Nerfing how quickly he shreds towers could lead him towards being a more balanced champion, both in the mid and bot lanes. The only issue is this nerfs the niche Riot geared him toward. That's no good.

  2. Nerf Twitch and Vayne, buff the remainder of the ADCs. Individual nerfs to Twitch and Vayne compounded with an increase in AD or price reduction on big ADC items would help them reach powerspikes a bit earlier in the match. Downside is they get more powerful late-game, but considering the late-game monsters we've seen recently from other lanes, like Ziggs, Viktor, and Cassie, maybe it's not such a huge issue.

  3. Armor/MR get reworked a little to be more effective late-game, less effective early on. This will help both ADCs and mages to do a little more to punch through resists early on, where they're particularly strong, but tanks won't blow up as quickly later. However, this will probably lead to damage-heavy ranged dominating top more and I really don't like bruiser tears.

  4. Adjust towers. They feel underwhelming and could do with changes. Of course the bot one gets damage reduction back but since we wanna avoid that lane swap bullshit adjust it to the point where you can't take top faster even if you tried, but with enough damage reduction you don't see autopushers get free towers pre-6 (looking at you, Ziggs and Jinx). Then scale up the damage and tankiness of later towers. The downside is longer games, but since that alleviates snowballing I think most of the people here would be okay with that.

TL;DR best option is to buff the bottom tower to somewhere between its current state and the strength of current towers so that it's easier to take in lane swaps but not easy enough to mow down way early on. Plus nerf tower first blood a little. Plus buff inners. Ziggs will probably go away but it fixes enough issues that the drop in diversity is for good reason.

15 Comments

Critkeeper2 votes

I'm fine with ziggs going bot instead of having a marksman every game, so how about we just keep it the way it is.

Besides, if we are going to change the game to keep one class of champions in every game, why don't we buff mages so hard mages become mandatory? Oh yeah, because there are more than 5 kinds of champions in the game and they can't all be mandatory. Ditto for marksmen, its about time they become "optional" like everything else.

Variks the Loyal1 votes

{quoted}

I'm fine with ziggs going bot instead of having a marksman every game, so how about we just keep it the way it is.

Besides, if we are going to change the game to keep one class of champions in every game, why don't we buff mages so hard mages become mandatory? Oh yeah, because there are more than 5 kinds of champions in the game and they can't all be mandatory. Ditto for marksmen, its about time they become "optional" like everything else.

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

This guy's got it.

Rock MD2 votes

{quoted}

I'm fine with ziggs going bot instead of having a marksman every game, so how about we just keep it the way it is.

Besides, if we are going to change the game to keep one class of champions in every game, why don't we buff mages so hard mages become mandatory? Oh yeah, because there are more than 5 kinds of champions in the game and they can't all be mandatory. Ditto for marksmen, its about time they become "optional" like everything else.

Because Ziggs bot enforces a weak-tower snowball meta that is both obnoxious and unenjoyable. You like it when Jinx gets a double and takes your tower before she even has a BF Sword? He does the same damn thing. He is not a meta-defining change like the introduction of Morg support, he is the product of an unhealthy meta.

You strengthen towers to not be knocked over instantly, you fix a lot of problems with bot right now, but Ziggs also goes away. I'd rather fix current issues.

SGT Dingle Berry1 votes

Ziggs late game tower damage isn't this 1 shot garbage everyone is spewing, he still can't shred as fast as an ADC and until other champs can shred as fast as ADCs they will always be meta. Champs like Jax can tear down towers pretty fast but they put themselves in harms way to do so.

Rock MD1 votes

[{quoted}](name=SGT Dingle Berry,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LOd6qyrh,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-01-01T22:39:38.213+0000)

Ziggs late game tower damage isn't this 1 shot garbage everyone is spewing, he still can't shred as fast as an ADC and until other champs can shred as fast as ADCs they will always be meta. Champs like Jax can tear down towers pretty fast but they put themselves in harms way to do so.

Yes. It is, lmao. You toss a passive empowered auto and you will knock the turret down to Satchel's execute range. qtpie has an actual video posted and I have about 20 games of ranked as evidence that it's possible. Get a blue pot and Lich Bane and you will see the tower take almost full hp in damage in one empowered auto.

TequilaZombie1 votes

Ziggs' Passive + Lich Bane + Satchel Charge can one shot a turret quite easily. If not one taking it 100-0, it can at least take it from 80-0 without a problem.

Laxfan521 votes

[{quoted}](name=SGT Dingle Berry,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LOd6qyrh,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-01-01T22:39:38.213+0000)

Ziggs late game tower damage isn't this 1 shot garbage everyone is spewing, he still can't shred as fast as an ADC and until other champs can shred as fast as ADCs they will always be meta. Champs like Jax can tear down towers pretty fast but they put themselves in harms way to do so.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/5lbk1h/imaqtpie_one_shots_tower_as_adc_ziggs/?client=ms-android-verizon

Leaf of the lake1 votes

[{quoted}](name=SGT Dingle Berry,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LOd6qyrh,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-01-01T22:39:38.213+0000)

Ziggs late game tower damage isn't this 1 shot garbage everyone is spewing, he still can't shred as fast as an ADC and until other champs can shred as fast as ADCs they will always be meta. Champs like Jax can tear down towers pretty fast but they put themselves in harms way to do so.

Are we talking about the same champion here? Try playing him sometime. Not even a full build ADC can raze towers as fast as lategame ziggs.

Here's some stats for you:

Tower health: 3300 Inhib Tower MR at 30 minutes: 40 Inhib Tower MR at 45 minutes: 70

Ziggs flat pen (mpen reds, precision, sorc shoes): 30 (lv13), 31.5 (lv18) Ziggs pen from void staff: 14 (at 30 minutes), 24.5 (at 45 minutes)

Effective Tower MR at 30-33 minutes: 0 Effective tower MR at 45 minutes: 14

Ziggs base AD at lv13: 88 Ziggs base AD at lv18: 107 Basic attack AP ratio against towers: 40% AP

Damage from lich bane: 75% base AD + 50% AP

Ziggs passive damage to towers at lv13: 200 + 100% AP Ziggs passive damage to towers at lv18: 320 + 100% AP Note: Ziggs's passive can be fully reset with two spellcasts at lv13 (it has a 12s cd, reduced by 6s whenever he casts an ability)

Ziggs W tower execution threshold at lv13-18: 35% health Damage needed to inflict to tower to enable execution: 2145

So we've got the numbers we need. Now for the math:

Each passive-applied auto inflicts (base AD) + (passive base damage) + 140% AP By AAing a tower once, casting Q+W, then AAing again, ziggs can get this damage off twice in an incredibly brief window, plus additional damage from lich bane if he's built it

At lv13, the base AD + passive base comes to 288. At lv18, it comes to 427. In both cases, it's a 280% AP ratio. Adding a lich bane proc to the second AA increases these numbers to 354 (lv13), 507 (lv18), and 330% AP.

At lv13, we can assume ziggs is dealing effectively true damage to the turret, as it's probably still before 30 minutes. In order to inflict the necessary 2145 damage, he would need 542 AP (and that's with lich bane), which is probably a bit high for that point in the game. The presence of mountain drakes drastically reduces this value, down to 484 / 434 / 393 AP for 1/2/3 mountains, respectively.

At lv18, we'll assume the turret's already scaled up to max MR, so it effectively gets a modest +14% HP, increasing the damage threshold to 2445. This requires a slightly higher 587 AP, but at this point in the game, ziggs will easily have that much. Even without lich bane, ziggs can still 100-0 a tower with 720 AP, or 703 with sorcery elixir. Having mountain drakes makes it a joke to pull off.

Irelia Bot1 votes

You might want to change this to Ziggs replacing marksmen since he is not building attack damage.

IcyPepper1 votes

ADC role is opening up to diversity.

Ya mean bot lane?

The fact that you still call it ADC is why a lot of us want Ziggs viable here.

Rock MD1 votes

{quoted}

Ya mean bot lane?

The fact that you still call it ADC is why a lot of us want Ziggs viable here.

I call it ADC because I've played the game for almost 4 years. If Ziggs stays idgaf but I hardly imagine he'll stay if towers are strengthened, which has needed to happen for a while now due to how irrelevant adcs are in most games due to 8 minute clown fiestas for first tower.

IcyPepper1 votes

I call it ADC because I've played the game for almost 4 years.

Then you should know the difference between a role and a lane.

If your excuse is that you played the game for almost 4 years, then that's even more reason we need diversity down in bot lane.

Rock MD1 votes

{quoted}

Then you should know the difference between a role and a lane.

If your excuse is that you played the game for almost 4 years, then that's even more reason we need diversity down in bot lane.

ADC exists not because it's a role but because it's a win condition. Thus Riot is trying to make other champions sieging machines with dps to lessen the need for ADCs. If that happens naturally, and it works hand in hand with other strategies, go for it.

But If the meta creates a single champion that can push out an entire role save 2 champions, it's a problem, not diversity. That's why season 4 sucked, the last time Ziggs almost kept an entire roster full of mages unviable. That's why Lee choking out the jungle is a problem.

If the problems get amended and Ziggs stays then boom, diversity. What's going on right now is not diversity though.

Meep Man1 votes

ADC

Attack Damage Carry

Ziggs is not that. Better to just call it Carry/Position 1/Bottom Lane

Brutalitops011 votes

The only thing I think needs to be changed to fix bot lane is making the turret have the Fortification buff, too. I really don't mind if Ziggs bot lane becomes the norm, or if other champions replace the traditional ADC and you send either an ADC or someone with similarly strong pushing power to mid lane. I just think that my turret needs to not be a pile of literal butter so that I can actually lane without getting partied on and becoming completely useless until I get to full build.

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