MSI has shown us the diversity of jungle champions

The Deckowner·May 7, 2016·136 votes·7,877 views

and occasional when one of the two is banned.

So much diversity. So much balanced kit and items.

181 Comments

My eeeeelMay 7, 201645 votes

Same for top lane. Ekko Maokai Poppy .

Other champions that came out when banned have 0 winrate. Trundle Gangplank Malphite

The DeckownerMay 7, 201657 votes

Alistar 92% pick ban 100% win rate btw

SpoofghoulMay 7, 20161 votes

well yea the peel is strong in this one

Sire HippingtonMay 7, 20167 votes

so is the engage...and dive...and tankiness....

Voluug13May 7, 201630 votes

To be fair, Poppy will always be popular due to her utility and anti-engage, not for being inherently OP.

Ekko can burn in a fire for all I care.

DisulfiramMay 7, 20164 votes

{quoted}

To be fair, Poppy will always be popular due to her utility and anti-engage, not for being inherently OP.

Then her rework could be called a success, since she was among the least popular before it. XD

JJI744May 7, 20166 votes

If you cut the damage on Poppy Q, or even just changed it from a 50/50 split to a 25/75, you would see her popularity drop. Utility and anti-engage are powerful, but Poppy getting that along with damage is what makes her popular.

Only Play DariusMay 7, 201637 votes

They're also all ranged. Jg used to be the last "safe" role for melee champs since most of them are easily zoned in lanes while ranged champs couldn't clear camps. Most melee champs are nothing more than a liability at this point.

TotalJerkMay 7, 201634 votes

As much as people hate Lee Sin, whenever he wasn't viable it was always a clear sign that something was horribly wrong.

junglerboy16May 7, 201622 votes

Only because something MORE broken had taken his place.

Kindred/Nidalee/Graves may be the current toxic jungle trio, but I'm never letting Lee sin off that easy.

JasiwelMay 7, 201612 votes

Kindred is just needs more tuning, but she'll reach a good state eventually.

Riot WILL NOT let go of Nidalee. She is not healthy. She needs to be gutted and rebuilt. What she is now is not working for game health.

Graves needs higher CDs and lower base damage. :^)

PartholonianMay 7, 20166 votes

{quoted}

Kindred is just needs more tuning, but she'll reach a good state eventually.

Keep in mind that MSI is being played on the last patch where Devourer still exists. I wouldn't be surprised if Kindred was fixed on live.

Riot WILL NOT let go of Nidalee. She is not healthy. She needs to be gutted and rebuilt. What she is now is not working for game health.

I don't think it's Nidalee herself that is the problem, but the decision to add substantial move speed to just one jungle item. Move speed is very important in the jungle and while some mages may have needed the help, Nidalee isn't one of them.

Some people just really, really hate the idea of high-impact skillshots though (look at Blitz's perennial ban rates in some elos, even when his win rate is terrible).

Graves needs higher CDs and lower base damage. :^)

Not sure what to do with Graves -- I've never really understood how he can function in the jungle in the first place with no sustain and just a defensive steroid. But forcing him to build more damage to do more damage, like they're doing to Ekko, might be a good place to start.

JasiwelMay 7, 20163 votes

Ah, makes sense regarding Kindred.

Nidalee has just been a pin-pong ball of balance changes because she has been notoriously unhealthy. Blitzcrank at least has high CDs - Nidalee's spears are relatively low CD and if the skillshots themselves don't kill you then the followup execute from her Cougar form will.

IMO, they need to work on the relationship between Human form and Cougar form more than anything else. Cougar form should be used for re-positioning, not as an execution mechanic.

Graves needs to be put into a weak state before knowing what a healthy state is for him.

TotalJerkMay 7, 20163 votes

{quoted}

I've never really understood how he can function in the jungle in the first place with no sustain and just a defensive steroid.

It's the mechanics of his autos. They knock back and stun monsters. Not only does this make his clear super safe, it allows him to instantly knock out scuttler resistances for free.

ThatHaleStateMay 7, 20163 votes

it allows him to instantly knock out scuttler resistances for free.

They removed the scuttle resistance lower from his knockback patches ago FYI

BasedJarvan420May 7, 20169 votes

{quoted}

As much as people hate Lee Sin, whenever he wasn't viable it was always a clear sign that something was horribly wrong.

Great, so we can see lee vs elise every game instead then lmao.

SkyBlade79May 7, 20163 votes

So true.

The Bíg TicketMay 7, 201618 votes

MSI has shown us that bruisers are dead.

0% pickrate.

MunchCrunchLunchMay 7, 20168 votes

adcs are op. you pick assassin and kill them. pick a bruiser and die to them. pick a tank and tank damage for your team while they try to kill them.

tooomineMay 7, 201618 votes

Range OP. always has been.

The DeckownerMay 7, 201612 votes

ranged champion who can clear the entire map without taking any meaningful dmg is the problem.

Theiki KayleMay 7, 201613 votes

Top Lane: Poppy Maokai Ekko Jungle: Graves Kindred Nidalee Mid Lane: Azir Leblanc Ryze ADC: Lucian Sivir Ezreal Support: Alistar Braum Janna

Apart from the occasional oddball, basically three champs dominate every role.

The DeckownerMay 7, 20163 votes

actually support is the relatively diversed considering how heavily their champ is banned.

LankPantsMay 7, 20167 votes

http://lol.esportspedia.com/wiki/2016_Mid-Season_Invitational/Statistics/Champions

Judging by P/B it's really not. I'm not sure where this guy's pulling Janna from, considering she's been played in 2 games, but there's a very clear S tier in the support role.

Ali, Bard and Braum are clearly the best supports, pulling P/Bs of 75-85%. After this there's a large drop-off down to Thresh, Soraka and support Trundle. That's not a diverse cast, that's 3 champs dominating P/B just like in every other class.

The DeckownerMay 7, 20162 votes

alistar and braum are simply too unfair with their dmg reduction compare to other supports. the meta right now encourge top and support tanks, and supports are always squishy cuz they are poor, so alistar and braum become abvious best support. once rito decide to nerf these broken ranged junglers and tanks/brusiers come back in the jg we will see a much more diversed support pick.

Odyssey85May 7, 20162 votes

Um, Braum doesn't have damage reduction. He has his E, which blocks all damage of the first projectile, but then takes 30% reduced damage, all while being able to be CC'd during its duration. That's pretty fair IMO. The reason Braum may be so popular is due to his strong engage/disengage kit along with his passive

LankPantsMay 7, 201611 votes

Um, Braum doesn't have damage reduction.

You sure?

but then takes 30% reduced damage

LankPantsMay 7, 20162 votes

http://lol.esportspedia.com/wiki/2016_Mid-Season_Invitational/Statistics/Champions

Why are you listing Janna, she's been played in two games. It's far more appropriate to list Bard who's P/B rate actually rivals Ali's and Braum's.

SincarnationMay 7, 20167 votes

Diversity seems to be at an all time low at MSI like holy crap im so sick of seeing basically the same team comps and champions every game. Top lane: Ekko Poppy Maokai Jungle: Nidalee Graves Kindred Mid: Ryze Azir Leblanc ADC: Lucian Ezreal Caitlyn Sivir is permaban basically Supp: Moderately diverse actually, but still seems to be favoring tanky melee supports

By now I expect the comp scene to pick the top picks, but holy shit is it worse this time around

LankPantsMay 7, 20163 votes

Supp: Moderately diverse actually, but still seems to be favoring tanky melee supports

It's only moderately diverse because of Dumbledodge and Aphro. The other 4 players are just playing Ali/Braum/Trundle basically every game, which is currently the best way to support right now.

rtbf22147970May 7, 20161 votes

What about these champs makes them so desired right now? I always have trouble keeping up with the meta. Can someone explain top 10 bans and why as well as why these 15 champs are dominating pro play?

LankPantsMay 7, 20163 votes

Mostly that they're completely and utterly absurdly broken.

Past that it's because they're champs who tend to dominate early, which is more valuable in pro play than casual since the team that gets ahead has a tendency to stay ahead.

DefendedMay 7, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Diversity seems to be at an all time low at MSI like holy crap im so sick of seeing basically the same team comps and champions every game. Top lane: Jungle: Mid: ADC: Sivir is permaban basically Supp: Moderately diverse actually, but still seems to be favoring tanky melee supports

By now I expect the comp scene to pick the top picks, but holy shit is it worse this time around

Wait what. Caitlyn isnt viable in tournaments. None of the adcs without a dash are. Sivir is only banned because thats bangs best..

The DeckownerMay 7, 201610 votes

did u say caitlyn dont have a dash?

ProfDrDeathMay 7, 20166 votes

Remove Kindred's stupid W passive.

Give Nidalee a meaningful nerf in her jungling (a really meaningful nerf, not just "lower damage by 10 at rank 1, increase damage by 5 at rank 4").

Lower (or remove) the knockback from Graves' autos on Large monsters (since these are heavier than the small guys).

Fanny ForecastMay 7, 20168 votes

Kindred's W passive is what keeps her alive levels 1-3 and is a requirement for her jungling. The issue with it is that it's a life STEAL not a life gain, like it should be. You get extra damage off when you proc it, to the best of my knowledge. Either way, this isn't what needs nerfed and they did give a meaningful nerf to her early game (Q cooldown soft-reset (old cass E style) when W is active)

Nidalee got a meaningful nerf a few patches ago, they removed most of her ability to kite and fucked up lower-elo nidalee mains and higher-elo nidalee mains alike. I'm not good enough at kiting yet so I have to grab my E second because I just take too much damage. It used to be W-Q every time, no matter what. Even some higher-elo nidalees have to do this from time to time... Her clear got drastically less safe because of this. Invade her at level 2 when she's low hp and has no smite (so usually her bot side buff) and you can get a free kill, steal her buff, and set her back far.

Graves... just fuck graves... no AD Caster in League has been this fucking bursty... not Varus, not Urgot, not Ezreal. None of em... ADCs, carry or caster, should be sustained dps not burst and riot has stated this themselves...

NyhverMay 7, 20166 votes

It's all about how Riot is balancing things

Which they should improve on, quickly

NuckaChuckaMay 7, 20166 votes

What happened? Was there too much diversity at worlds last year that it was unacceptable?

c'mon riat

GGXJ9May 7, 20165 votes

Oh wow teams using top picks! who would have guessed! Never happened before ever! why would they do such a thing! Why not pick galio just because and lose!?!?

Your post has shown you dont know competitive games especially league of legends.

LuggMay 7, 201640 votes

You are missing the OP's point, there should be several viable junglers at the competitive level.

Kuroi86May 7, 20164 votes

While I don't disagree with you, the pro scene has always had an extremely small pool of champs that they pick from, typically they are known to pick the safest of champs in terms of positioning, this means mobility.

TurretBudMay 7, 20165 votes

Yea, and the diversity of top (already mentioned)/adc Adcs: Ezreal Lucian Caitlyn

Lady HammerlockMay 7, 20162 votes

If blank was subbed for Bengi we might see some tank jungles lol

LankPantsMay 7, 20164 votes

No you wouldn't, Bengi would be made to play Nid, Graves and Kindred. That's just the state of the game right now.

Lady HammerlockMay 7, 20161 votes

{quoted}

No you wouldn't, Bengi would be made to play Nid, Graves and Kindred. That's just the state of the game right now.

SKT T1 wouldn't trust Bengi with carry junglers,they wouldn't force him either because he isn't comfortable and very good at carry jungles the game when both kindred and nidalee was banned,Bengi could've picked a tank jungle because the only carry jungle option would be games and maybe Quinn

LankPantsMay 7, 20163 votes

Then playing him over Blank is a terrible idea. The simple fact right now is that Nid, Graves and Kindred are the best junglers by a wide margin. If you have a jungler who can play them and a jungle who can't and they're of comparable (not necessarily equal) skills then it's just always going to be better to play the one who can.

Lady HammerlockMay 7, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Then playing him over Blank is a terrible idea. The simple fact right now is that Nid, Graves and Kindred are the best junglers by a wide margin. If you have a jungler who can play them and a jungle who can't and they're of comparable (not necessarily equal) skills then it's just always going to be better to play the one who can.

What if they know a team who would choose to ban Aggressive junglers graves/nid/kindred with far less options bengi could make an appearance although i agree its a stretch,Bengi is just bad at aggressive junglers and the chances of being him chose even one at MSI will likely not happen

LankPantsMay 7, 20162 votes

The second tier of junglers is Lee/Elise/Gragas. If Bengi was played the team against him could ban Gragas and force him to a third tier jungle, which is too detrimental in competitive play.

DengedenMay 7, 20161 votes

You'll never get champion diversity in competitive, you've had how many years of LCS to show you this? And how many patches?

Deal with it.

The DeckownerMay 7, 201613 votes

Last year in worlds there are over 100 champions played, right now in MSI there are 38 champion contested(meaning were pick or banned, but might now be played). I dont think ur arguement is valid.