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Can we talk about Singed?

SaltyToplaneGoat··35 votes·4,949 views

For all those newer players who will ask now "Who?": yes, apart from Viktor and Heimerdinger we actually have another crazy science champ. This one here: Singed Sadly he isn't as popular as the other two and in desperate needs for some changes.

"But if he's unpopular, shouldn't we just, dunno, buff him?"

Hahaha - NO. Buffing Singed in his current state would just make him totally toxic. He's the total opposite of what a healthy design should be: avoid every unnecessary contact with the enemy, only one direct spell that is actually used for disengaging... Also we all know how annoying a strong Singed can be and I for myself am kinda glad I haven't seen a good one in ages.

What this champ needs is not a buff, but a gameplay rework. His theme and basic concepts are mostly fine and I'm totally in for leaving poison trail as one of his basic mechanics, but it shouldn't be the only thing that defines him.

Ok, now, what is the main problem with Singed? The Passive? Well needed for the Q, makes him a tank, is fine kinda although super boring and replaceable.

The current Q? Also fine. Singed just needs a reason to not only run away from enemies and actually engage in combat. Maybe one could add some compexity to the spell so it's not just a turn on/turn off spell. How about "If it's on too long the gas becomes unstable, explode and random bad effect here like this signed couldn't run forever, he would have to engage in combat at some point. But this is only one possibility.

The W is fine. Super glue. Love it. Also the interaction of W and E is a good start, but by far not enough to make him a really complex champion.

The E is also fine, but has potential for more. I'll explain later.

The real problem, and also the reason Signed can feel so incredible boring to play, is his ult. It's a general stat steroid that could be totally replaced by an ability that is actually interesting to use.

So, how do we fix this? What skill could replace his ultimate? Or can we save his ult somewhere else in the kit? For that, let me explain what exactly Singed's theme is: "Super evil insane science"

"Super evil insane science" mostly includes: Poison, Other chemical stuff (such as super glue), EXPLOSIONS and doping - basicially everything you can use chemical substances with to kill your enemies in evil and immoral ways.

Also, what is Singed mostly know for? In the lore I mean. Not for running away. Not for his super glue and ALSO not for his doping.

It's for dropping a weapon of massdestrucion on an enemy & an allied army, effectivly turning the entire area into a contamination zone and killing almost everyone inside.

To keep it short: His ultimate should be an airstrike. But not a global one like GP uses. No, that would be downright boring. How about one that sends the strike down somewhere close to him after some delay? How exactly this works out can be left to the design specialists at Riot ^^

Make it extremly powerful, but also make it able to damage himself and other allied untis. I want that "GET THE FUCK OUT OF THERE" Feel whenever Singed uses that skill. On both teams. I want even his allies to question his sanity when calling down that bomb.

Yeah sure, the troll potential is big, but if this game can handle bard and kalista this should be no problem.

"But what about his insanity potion? Isn't that doping theme also part of him?" , you surely ask now. Well, yes of course it is. And this is why I propose putting it on the current E. Fling can now be cast on Singed himself, increasing his speed, AD and AP at cost of some HP. This can be done multiple times, but the costs rise with every time - because it's unhealthy, you know? Also: the more "doped" you are, the stronger your fling gets.

Tl,dr: Replace ultimate by awesome airstrike, put doping mechanic on the fling since it's the only skill that actually uses physical strenght and mostly keep Q and W as they are.

Or do you have other ideas what do to with the champ?

88 Comments

Thefriendlyorc9 votes

Tenacity on singed Ult would bring him back to par with a lot of the continued damage tanks. He's fun as is, I've played him a ton but he's just not tanky enough, or he doesnt do enough damage as a full tank. So You need to choose between bruiser with decent continued damage, or you become a tank that is kited endlessly or outright ignored.

With the amount of mobility that comes out of most champions now a days, getting a flip is a dubious concept at best, even using your glue at range only is as effective as the cooldown of someone's blink.

ElJanitorFrank7 votes

I don't want him to change, though. I like Singed because he has one of the most unique play styles in the game. No other champion is expected to be walking around in the opponents base at level 9, 15 minutes into the game before all the T1 towers are taken. That's just something Singed does, and everything in his kit helps him to do that. His super glue is obviously great for chasing, running, his flip is probably the most important spell he has for it because he can trick people into running in certain places etc, and his ultimate is required to do it, without it he would be caught too easily. I don't think he needs a rework, or any changes or anything, no buffs no nerfs. What he needs is a meta shift to become more popular.

KING OF MASKS6 votes

I'm sorry, but I have a hard time trusting anyone who can assert with perfect seriousness that Singed "can feel so incredible boring to play" -- frankly, I find Singed to be one of the most unique and fun champions in the game, hands down.

Which isn't to say that he couldn't use some gameplay updates to make him a little more consistent; but I would be severely disappointed if his playstyle was altered significantly.

SaltyToplaneGoat2 votes

Ok, tell me... what can Singed do? Run away with his Q. What are ALL his other abilities for? Helping him run away with his Q. It's not like you can't make any flashy plays. Not all plays need to be LCS material flashy. It's more the fact that he can't make ANY plays AT ALL.

I don't get how you can play this without starting to snore.

Galiö1 votes

There aren't that many characters that can make 'plays' except for maybe some supports and assassin's. The problem with singed is he is a 1 trick pony, but most old champions are. The ones with multiple 'tricks' either got nerfed to the point where they can't any effectively or their identity removed completely. Yes singed can be stale for some, but it's like playing a nasus. You just farm until your unkillable and do a lot of dmg. Singed can be just as tanky but g8ving him more burst would be more frustrating than anything. he is tough to kill,but offers little to no cc. So he is hardly a tank. So what os singed? nothing. he is a farmer and split pusher. He doesn't do much in team fights other than aggrivate spaces to move. So maybe they should make him more obstructive in his kit. Idk. There are too many factors. he is hard to work with.

SaltyToplaneGoat2 votes

Generally I don't like champs designed for splitpushing.

Don't get me wrong, splitpushing IS a legitimate tactic. But if your champ can ONLY splitpush... well. Then you have a champ that spends 50% of the game playing PvE and (in singeds case) 50% running away from any interesting interaction.

I think he's supposed to be some kind of AP fighter that's a little tanky.

Gavran5 votes

Having wave clear + the weakest form of mobility (moving faster) is hardly equivalent to being "designed for splitpushing."

Old Rengar was a splitpushing champ. Zed was/is a split pushing champ. Tryndamere is a split pushing champ. Singed is a guy that makes lanes push in his team's favor.

MakersF1 votes

Singed is a champion who wears your team down. Forces you to pull someone to his side of the map in order to deal with him, and gives opportunities to your team to take objectives. His identity is not running away, his identity is do destroy whoever tries to follow him, but still giving them the hope to catch him, so they'll continue to follow.

I wish to see his W become more reliable. Nowadays it's almost impossible to catch any carry AND pull i over W. The reward given for diving into the enemy team, overcoming the multiple slows of supports and dashes of squishies, catching them, placing W where theywill go, is too damn low. Possible solutions: W like leona ult, at the center roots, on the sides it slows like now. OR if the target is poisoned, the W always roots for X seconds when it lands. OR while ulti is active W roots when you first enter it. A scaling dmg on his Q would be nice to, like missing health (the weaker you are, the faster poison/virus/bacteria kill you), or scaling off his max health (no idea of the reason here) or enemy max health. Or add any of these effects only while the ult is up, and give 50% less effective slows when the ulti is up (so just slows don't counter you completely)

Galiö1 votes

Working off your idea I think it would be more interesting if his R was changed to make his poison more effective by increasing dmg based off of lower enemy health and makes the trail longer, as well as increase adhesives size and effectiveness and leave his flip unchanged.

KING OF MASKS3 votes

I can't speak for all Singed players, but I'll try to make a case for the defense of Singed's current state.

Truthfully, on paper his kit is pretty boring. You're right when you say that he can't make a whole lot of plays ("ANY plays AT ALL" is a bit hyperbolic). But, to me Singed is the ultimate troll pick. There are very few other champions that come to mind that can match Singed's simultaneous reliance on and exploitation of an enemy's mistakes. It's not a matter of what plays Singed is able to make (admittedly very few); it's a matter of how he can take advantage of his opponents' screwups. It's debatable whether that's good design, but Singed is undoubtedly well-equipped for such a playstyle. This does make him borderline useless at higher elo, since almost nobody will fall for any of Singed's tricks, but at lower elo and in unranked, where teamfights are disorderly and people are generally more likely to have poor judgment, he shines like a golden god. And in my personal experience I just find the ability to sprint into the enemy team and right back out again, baiting and flinging all the way, very exhilarating.

Also, if you ask me you guys are seriously over-exaggerating. Literally all Singed can do is run away with Q? Yeah, I guess Fling's ONLY usage is to facilitate running away (complete, total and utter lie). And just below me, Diamond Demon: "offers little to no cc" -- are you serious? His W is nothing to sniff at, and he also happens to have one of the most reliable displacement CC abilities in the game; and yet he offers "little to no cc"? Not to mention with Rylai's (generally considered a core item) he has an effectively permanent AOE slow. I get that some people find Singed boring, that's fine, but seriously now.

Thefriendlyorc3 votes

Most singed players will run ahead of their enemy to cut them off from minions, their own towers, its all about predicting the enemy's movements. His issue is how easily avoided he is in the realm of 'everyone has a blink or a cc' Meaning the steady damage, one hard cc tank gets outclassed by a lot.

MakersF2 votes

He disagrees about the low elo part http://www.twitch.tv/grandtheftudyr

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1BO35Yn6Vqhw9Yct-VDZHw/videos

Sooko5 votes

I really like that "GTFO of here" idea. Its pretty neat.

I feel like his passive is very similar to Veigar's in one thing: due to it, his mana costs are insane.

As a tank, buying mana really hinders you a little at first due to not getting you much of a defense at earlier stages of the game, but his passive is pretty good (not really interesting in any way, but a good passive to make him tanky from already tanky late game mana items)

I think his fling lacks all that chemistry thing to it. Yes its powerful, but it doesn't feel suited for a mad scientist. The skill could probably be reworked into the self-doping if we gave Singed's ult actual CC to compensate.

I also like those "woopsies" that can happen if Singed leaves his poison trail on for too long. We don't actually see Singed jeopardizing his security while he is in battle. His ultimate and Q changes can very well fix this.

Nice thread overall, +1

SpecterVonBaren5 votes

What if his ult called an airstrike that launched a gas bomb in a targeted location that lets out a huge cloud of gas (the aoe would be three times as large as GP's ult) this gas deals poison damage equal to half the damage of Poison Trail (the dot form his Q and ult would also stack) and reduces the vision of enemies within it and removes map vision of that area for the duration. Singed gains increased movement speed while inside the gas cloud.

SaltyToplaneGoat3 votes

3 times GP ult? That would be a little bit TOO big ^^ Maybe a little bit bigger than the gp ult, but not much. Instead, make it more powerful. As i stated in another thread reply it doesn't have to be a nuke in terms of damage-explosion. Chemical Warfare is way more dangerous than that.

A poison could would be nice, but why not go a step further: I want that area to be completly contaminated, so neither friend or foe can enter it without danger. Acid eating into the terrian, poisnous fumes slowly killing everything living...

THis isn't an ultimate used for fights. This ENDS a fight. By simply murdering everything. Typical Singed style ^^

Also it would be the ultimate zoning tool. Oh you want to push that lane? TOO BAD I TURNED IT INTO NUCLEAR WASTELAND MUAHAHAHA!

Svddenly2 votes

sighs Rito should never EVER implement a friendly fire mechanic. For reasons that do not need any explaining. People are trolling bad enough already.

BUT, BUT, I do really like the airstrike idea. And the him getting high by using fling on himself.

SaltyToplaneGoat4 votes

It wouldn't be direkt friendly fire and it would take longer than the typical bard ult to charge (= way enough time to simply walk out).

As I stated somewhere else in this thread, direct damage on teammates is INDEED A NO-GO. But indirect? Should go actually.

Also I don't really know, but people don't troll so much than some years ago I think. I mean, you can also troll with a gragas or urgot ult, killing your team with it. And that's worse than some big, totally dodgeable aoe thing... And if they troll, report them. If they do it too often they get banned. Simple as that.

Svddenly2 votes

No. Any damage that you can deal to teammates is definitely a no go. Direct or indirect. I'm sorry, but the League community is full of stupid people that would abuse it to try and kill their teammates. I don't want anything EVER that can deal damage to teammates. Bard is annoying enough.

SaltyToplaneGoat5 votes

So... we can't have nice things because 0,001% of the players MIGHT PROBABLY ruin a game with it.

Wow.

Dat logic.

This may apply to bronze 5 at some times, but not even there people are so toxic. And I know what I'm talking about I've been there, seen the plains of salt and the oceans of flame. But active trolling? Nah. You mentioned Bard in another post. Most Bard players don't troll. They just suck. Or made a mistake. People who are actively trolling are actually super rare - mostly because they will be reported and banned in the end.

In the example here: keep an eye on him, don't sleep and he won't be able to deal the tiniest bit of damage to you, even if he wanted. It ain't that hard.

Svddenly2 votes

I dunno. Maybe the NA League community is more toxic than EUW. But it would definitely be more than 0.001% of players killing their teammates ON PURPOSE. I cannot imagine the rage that would come from people if you ACCIDENTALLY kill them or prevent them from getting a kill because there's a big death cloud in the way. And I would get pissed if a Singed dropped his death bomb on the adc that I was about to burst down with Rengar. Other situations the highlight why friendly fire is bad, etc., etc.

Svddenly1 votes

Don't know why people think being able to damage your team is a good idea.

To OP: Putting his old ult on his E? Would fit better onto his W imo.

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

OK, we have the choice of putting the physical doping on: that weird glue spray OR the one skill that is ALSO requires insane physical strenght. Would make more sense no? Also now this could explain how tiny little Singed could fling over a 6 stack Cho'Gath...

Svddenly1 votes

Well, his old ult was insanity potion, not I'm big and strong. And besides, that wouldn't fit onto an ability called Fling anyways. His W is Mega Adhesive, so he can sniff the glue and get some buffs.

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

Sigh... ok one little example to how it would feel ingame.

Right now ult: button press ok I'm strong now.

Doping mechanic on fling. "Need... more... strenght... need a... higher dose..." prcoeeds sacrificing hp several times to get the strenght out "WHRAAHA I'M THE STRONGEST COME AT ME"

Also, in real live, sniffing flue does much, but it doesn't make you strong ^^

Svddenly1 votes

But this is Singed's glue we're talkin about here. No one knows what's in that shit. And what am I gonna do? Fling myself to get strength?

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

Sigh, I can't belive I have to tone it down to the most obvious reason.

Fling is the ONLY ability on his kit that works as "point&click" and could be used for a self cast.

You would need the glue in a fight, the moment you would have to put the AoE on yourself would mean you sacrifice your only ranged cc. (also your only hope of somehow getting close to the enemy).

Svddenly1 votes

I was talking from a theme perspective, because flinging yourself and becoming stronger doesn't make sense, but from a gameplay perspective, fling may seem more fitting.

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

Of course he wouldn't "fling himself". Lulu doesn't turn herself into a squirrel either when she uses her polymorph-skill on herself. Putting two different functions on a skill isn't the problem here.

CubedJustice1 votes

Perhaps instead of singed getting increased movement speed, the enemies are slowed. Poison is poison, after all, it's not better for one person than it is for another, and it's thematically better for him that way.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

I was just imagining it being used for Singed himself to zip around causing havoc on the battlefield, having it so it slows all enemies also makes it kind of op since the aoe is so large and I want the aoe to be large so that the vision denial is meaningful.

CubedJustice1 votes

The problem with deferring power into range, turns into a bomb. A one hundred megaton bomb isn't a hundred times larger than a one megaton bomb, because a ton of power is wasted into the center, instead of spreading outward. The majority of the power would be wasted on a 3x GP sized ult, because that's far wider than anything a team will normally inhabit, such as a lane, the river, a part of the jungle. The only time that ability would really shine is in a base fight.

flibitydoo4 votes

Directly damaging your own team is way past the line

Bard is okay because it's also shared invulnerability (in exchange for loss of control). So is Kalista. Singed ult being able to damage allies would have no purpose/function (beyond trolling). There is a good reason why you would cast Fate's Call/Tempered Fate. You can save your teammates with it. Singed having random friendly fire tied to his ult would be a dumb mechanic that punishes you (and your team) for no reason at all.

SaltyToplaneGoat2 votes

Direct damage would indeed be bad. This is why I propose an indirect mechanic: upon cast Signed sets an AoE clearly visible for the allied team (and a bit later also visible for the enemy team). The team should have enough time to leave the blast radius unless put under cc. Enemies have a bit less time walking out.

Directly damaging other teammates is bad, I agree, but like this it should be able to work out.

One Epic Potato4 votes

I really like the idea for his ult, but it would need some fine tuning to work if it were to hit allies. I think it'd be great if it made a global noise like Rek'Sai or Gangplank. Just walking when all of a sudden this massive Singed gas weapon falls from the sky while you hear Singed's mad laughter sounds awesome to me.

Trash MammaI2 votes

Singed is fine imo. Just kited too easy. Honestly, they just need to give him tenacity back. With so many mobile champs now a days that also have cc such as stuns/slows/snared/roots etc. it wouldn't be a bad idea to give it to him.

I found him pretty easy to play against. When singed was popular all he did was run past your tower and farm. If you tried to stop him he'd run wasting yours and the junglers time. If you pick a champ like nasus/tryn/garen etc. someone who could sustain minion damage easily and farm he was no biggy even more so now in the tp top lane meta.

Teamfights he was actually really good. He was great at making sure if someone jumped on his carry he could fling them away or if he wanted to engage he would ult + ghost and chase the enemy down and fling the first person he could into his enemy and continuing on as they slaughter that person. If he tried to escape he would just be running through a poison cloud (since most singed's build rylias they'd be slowed too)

Splitpushing he was just an annoyance everyone could ignore the only issue is nobody ever did. When he ran to a tower he didn't take it fast at all. Leaving his team to 4v5, against dumb enemies they'd chase after him letting his team take objectives.

His issue NOW is that anytime he tries to do any of the above todays champs all have easy solutions to it. Splitpushing? Lol zed got that wave in .5 seconds. Teamfight? Lol everyone blinks/dashes away wasting his ult and ghost while ccing/kiting him to death. Laning? As I mentioned he was easily dealt with

CubedJustice2 votes

Perhaps instead of a nuke, which, while fitting his theme extremely well, it doesn't fit into his, or the kit you designed, it's somewhat similar to a ziggs ult, but instead of a burst of damage, it stays up for X amount of time, reducing vision and slowing, and perhaps comboing with his glue? I think it would be very cool to give Singed a kit of doping up his spells with other spells, and actually being a teamfight presence, but not in a damage sense, like rumble. Status effects fit his theme so well, why not design him around them?

DrCyanide2 votes

Well thought out. I specifically like how you examined what to keep and what to change, stating both and avoiding outright numbers. Obviously play testing would have to ensue to see if it's a good fit, but Riot does seem to be trying to slowly bring Singed into a better spot.

AshenFox2 votes

As a person who actually likes playing Singed... how about.... No.

IceKingChernobog2 votes

careful what you wish for with reworks, just keep these 2 in mind Cassiopeia Veigar

Thy Red2 votes

Singed's ult is necessary to his playstile... and singed is fine

FantasySniper2 votes

OP: Let's make him less toxic.

Suggests ultimate that damages allies.

I liked where you were going with this until you made that ult idea. An airstrike is a sound idea, but the premise of "ally damage" should never happen. Maybe he can damage himself with it, which would greatly support building tank to survive your own devastation.

I Am Florg2 votes

Isn't making singed less toxic kind of an oxymoron?

FantasySniper1 votes

Yes. Yes it is.

FoggyPaws2 votes

DrMundo MUNDO SCIENCE CHAMPION AS WELL MUNDO MAKE BIG PROGRESS IN ZAUN BIIIIIG PROGRESS slurp

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

Oh my, how rude of me, to forget Valorans biggest biologist and neuroscientist.

Another candidate for a rework, but this isn't Singed level, but SION LEVEL. I should make a thread about Mundo...

largefish2 votes

Just my 2 cents, but I think many of the people suggesting ideas don't really get what singed is about. Singed shouldn't be some sort of battle chemist, flinging explosives and potions at the enemies, he is the product of self experimentation and mad chemistry. A long ranged nuke, unreliable poison, or many of the suggested ideas would not only go against his theme, but also ruin his gameplay identity as a slippery, annoying tank that outplays through tactics, not skillshots or bombs.

FalconPawwwwnch1 votes

How is singed bad for the game exactly? He has no mobility, clear weaknesses, is mana gated early, and has no ranged farming tools. He doesn't even have scaling MR

He has obvious weaknesses, that's something most "healthy" champions like zed don't even have

Lańce1 votes

i use to main singed season 2-4. his main problem is he doesnt scale anymore. something with patch 4.20 or 4.21 where the growth stat change happened made him not scale anymore. thats the point he became unplayable. I really dont know how he has 49% win rate.

they could give poison a %magic damage at when its scaled to 5 (problaby not idk something to scale)

anything more he is too buffed and will be op

edit: i think its because his ult doesnt give enough stats anymore 35 / 50 / 80. i think the free stats amount is fine lvl6 but later its nothing. esp the rank 3 ult 80 free ap LOL Before he could fight anyone while ulted, now it does nothing his ult is everything in his kit

Kingsgrave1 votes

Singed just needs to not have a 150 mana cost ult, no MR per level and needs to ignore unit collision. Thats all he needs.

Robin Song Robin1 votes

Fix singed by turning W into a brief AoE snare when it lands on an enemy, but leaving the slow portion and combo with fling unchanged.

If that's not enough, also change his ult so that when it's active his Q gas becomes a significant slow.

EDIT: I just thought Ulti giving the gas a %maxhp damage effect instead of a slow would be better. But he needs the ult to interact with his poison trail, that stuff is 99% of his identity

These changes would allow him to teamfight without the feeling that he's giving his enemies a slightly-too-warm bubble bath.

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