You should either rework stealth or remove it.

dominusx··16 votes·1,601 views

Cause even tho 2 of my champs rely on stealth i dont like beeing on the recieving end when i vs them. You cant do shit about stealth atm meanwhile the other guy can safely reposition and oneshot you while you are just standing there hoping you manage to click fast enough on the spot they pop up.

Khazix just walks up half the lane without you beeing able to see him and oneshots you. Evelynn ... Shaco same as Kha. Rengar AT LEAST YOU CAN SEE HIM when he is near Vayne pathetic champ arguably easiest in the game with how braindead her kit is freely repositioning while oneshoting squishies and melting everything that isnt Rammus Twitch Id argue same as rengar but he can hit you from 600+ range..

I'm not saying the listed champs are broken atm but i AM saying they are really toxic to deal with because you went and removed the goddamn pink wards so now every braindead monkey can safely abuse said stealth with no drawbacks and it's really not fun in any way to deal with the listen champs at any part of the game.

49 Comments

Eedat8 votes

Well stealth was reworked into camouflage and invisibility. Camouflage is fine IMO but invisibility is cancer

Salron1 votes

{quoted}

Camouflage is fine

Except for this Evelynn

Eedat1 votes

Still revealed by control wards

Salron1 votes

Did I ever say she wasn't? Eve has been cancer ever since the change to pink wards that made them visible

Sire Hippington1 votes

Just that nothing changed about eve's stealth since her rework a long time ago.

Salron1 votes

Vision in the game has changed

Ralanr1 votes

Thankfully Eve isn't meta.

Sire Hippington2 votes

Hardly in ways that affect eve, besides maybe the pink-trinket remove that happened way befor the stealth-rework. Controllwards still see her, so does red trinket and oracles, aswell as towers and any nearby champion.

Salron1 votes

"Hardly" Pinks being visible is not a change that "hardly" affected her

DrCyanide2 votes

Complaining about a change from patch 3.14 when we're coming up on patch 7.6?

It's been nearly 4 years, vision wards have been visible longer than they were stealthed at this point.

Salron1 votes

¿ It's old so it doesn't matter? What kind of logic is that?

And the change itself isn't the issue The issue is that Evelynn's passive has continued to exist since then

You know what happened after the change went through initially?

Evelynn became the most broken champion the game, becoming pick/ban tier, and Riot has nerfed her numbers by an absurd amount since then to keep her broken passive in line

YoungSirJ0ey1 votes

So her permastealth became more powerful, and Riot balanced around that? What exactly is the problem then?

Don't get me wrong, there is a problem with Eve, but it's not her passive, it's her ult. She shouldn't have damaging abilities that can reach outside of the range at which she is revealed.

Papa Andrei1 votes

How to deal with Eve

Ward in the jungle where you know she will end up being. Same thing as Shaco, they rely on the enemy team not knowing where they are. So ward places like Scuttle, between Gromp and Blue, Between Red and Raptors. Instead of just warding your bush by lane.

TO deal with in teamfights, Same thing, ward up, keep track of enemy positioning. Have someone who can cc/burst her sweep the jungle for their wards. An Evelynnn won't go into an unwarded jungle with no idea where the enemy assassin or mage is.

Eve, Shaco, Twitch all simply require you to pay more attention to the game.

Salron1 votes

I know how to deal Eve Do not tell me how to deal with Eve.

I do not enjoy her being the only champion in the game that can casually avoid all green wards outside of her camps Twitch and Shaco have limited stealth compared to hers, I have no issue with them

Warding her camps is not an option unless you're pushed out, and against Eve, you should generally never bother to push up for that purpose unless you saw her recently on the map somewhere else because she could be anywhere, anytime, and your trinket is useless outside of her camps

"oh but muh control vision wards" Yeah that ward you can only have 1 of, and it's not like Eve can literally just walk into the lane because you can't see her outside of the radius

Ralanr6 votes

I assumed that champions with stealth would actually get less damage to compensate honestly.

Actual stealth, not camouflage.

Teridax682 votes

I feel this should be a core design rule, honestly. The moment a champion gets invisibility and front-loaded burst at the same time, they become unhealthy, because you get only a fraction of a second to react to their kill potential, and by the end one of you has lost for sure. Rengar's the worst example of this, in spite of his camouflage, and both Kha and Vayne end up feeling terrible to play against whenever they get too much damage in a short period of time. If you champion can go invisible, whatever burst they have needs to be back-loaded, because you're shifting the counterplay to after the point where you start attacking (they can't really pre-empt you as well), and if your champion has front-loaded burst, their opponent needs to be able to detect and react to them ahead of time.

Touch My Box4 votes

{quoted}

Cause even tho 2 of my champs rely on stealth i dont like beeing on the recieving end when i vs them. You cant do shit about stealth atm meanwhile the other guy can safely reposition and oneshot you while you are just standing there hoping you manage to click fast enough on the spot they pop up.

Khazix just walks up half the lane without you beeing able to see him and oneshots you.

I reckon his shitty little phase into stealth effect should be visible through fog.

Evelynn ...

Is dumb as fuck. Her damage is just disgusting.

Shaco same as Kha

Except for the whole "I don't get my gapclose reset" thing. Once Shaco is in a fight, he is in it for at least 10 seconds.

Rengar AT LEAST YOU CAN SEE HIM

when he is near, but sadly jumps from 725 range.

Vayne pathetic champ arguably easiest in the game with how braindead her kit is freely repositioning while oneshoting squishies and melting everything that isnt Rammus.

Meh, shes too strong with crit, but her regular AS sort of build is fine.

Twitch Id argue same as rengar but he can hit you from 600+ range..

Rengar can hit you from +600 range too.

I'm not saying the listed champs are broken atm but i AM saying they are really toxic to deal with because you went and removed the goddamn pink wards so now every braindead monkey can safely abuse said stealth with no drawbacks and it's really not fun in any way to deal with the listen champs at any part of the game.

Any braindead player can activate Oracles Lens when they think an invisble enemy is nearby, or alternatively just buy Sunfire cape and look for shimmer.

DFT is effective, as is red buff. These champions are balanced around not being able to be seen, and those two mechanics (Shimmer/Red trink) take that away from them.

Eedat2 votes

Ayyyy look at the Shaco player trying to defend Shaco's Q when its arguably the most broken and try to redirect the heat on to other champs. Lmao

DuskDaUmbreon1 votes

He has a valid point. You can just press 4 to reveal them. Even the biggest noob can do that (although my teams seem to not know how to…)

dominusx7 votes

i'll say again red trink doesnt fuck you up it doesnt make you targetable and considering the amount of movspeed these champs have and their ability to dodge skillshots by sidesteppign or for shaco using is ult it doesn even matter to them nless they go in 1v5.

Touch My Box2 votes

{quoted}

i'll say again red trink doesnt fuck you up it doesnt make you targetable and considering the amount of movspeed these champs have and their ability to dodge skillshots by sidesteppign or for shaco using is ult it doesn even matter to them nless they go in 1v5.

His clone takes about a second to finish casting, so he is stuck there a second, giving his target plenty of time to move away. He has pretty average movespeed, and doesn't really build any outside of ghostblade.

dunder kill3 votes

His clone takes about a second to finish casting

Are you actually trying to present Shaco's I-frames as a weakness?

This is why the boards completely ignore Shaco mains. He's at a 54% Winrate in all ELOs and they'll tell you he's weak lol

dominusx1 votes

idgaf about winrate of a champ personally dont put me on thebandwagon this post wasnt made for the winrates. its made for the reason that stealth is toxic and needs a rework or new pink wards.

Touch My Box1 votes

{quoted}

idgaf about winrate of a champ personally dont put me on thebandwagon this post wasnt made for the winrates. its made for the reason that stealth is toxic and needs a rework or new pink wards.

Regular wards are just as good, especially in conjunction with oracles lens.

Completely revealing stealth champs on demand (old pink wards) is fucking stupid. Being able to remove an entire champs power for 75125g? Sign me up please, I'd like to remove Draven's axes for that cost.

Touch My Box2 votes

{quoted}

Are you actually trying to present Shaco's I-frames as a weakness?

This is why the boards completely ignore Shaco mains. He's at a 54% Winrate in all ELOs and they'll tell you he's weak lol

I'm not saying it is weak. In the situation described, Shaco would be revealed during his stealth and then use his ult to avoid an incoming skill shot. I am saying that if used while walking to kill someone while in stealth, it uses up precious seconds of his stealth timer and lets his target get away, so it isn't really a solution to ganking with red trinket.

Learn to read the context rather than cherry pick you mongoloid.

I don't think any Shaco main would say he is weak when used correctly, but he certainly doesn't have a very strong kit, he has low numbers and requires preparation. His kit relies on him already planning out the upcoming encounter, so anyone who can actively change the plan or pull something he didn't expect will most likely win. He excels when his opponents panic and get scared.

dunder kill2 votes

I did read the context. The context of a guy with Shaco in his name trying to casually brush off Shaco's toxic af 4.5 seconds of invisibilty attached to a flash attached to bonus damage as being fine then trying to throw a smokescreen by calling other champions broken. Shaco's Q is overloaded as fuck

"doesn't have a very strong kit" lmao

Again, this is why the Shaco mains are ridiculous and why we completely ignore them

Touch My Box2 votes

{quoted}

I did read the context. The context of a guy with Shaco in his name trying to casually brush off Shaco's toxic af 4.5 seconds of invisibilty attached to a flash attached to bonus damage as being fine then trying to throw a smokescreen by calling other champions broken. Shaco's Q is overloaded as fuck

"doesn't have a very strong kit" lmao

Again, this is why the Shaco mains are ridiculous and why we completely ignore them

So what you're saying is his targets bronze elo ass has 4.5 seconds to press the 4 key after seeing the puff of smoke.

Given that its about 90% of his burst, I'd say its necessary.

Without the flash part on it, you'd just shoot where he just was and follow the shimmer. Not sure if you realize this, but the earlier ranks barely allow him to reach the middle of the lane before being revealed. I'd be happy to go back to the 3.5 seconds at rank 1, rather than this scaling crap. You're really going to cry about 20 bonus damage early game?

Damn, this overloaded ability costs 25% of his mana to do 20 bonus damage.

Eedat1 votes

It goes on and on and on. The excuses keep coming and coming and coming.

"Cost 25% of his mana to do 20 bonus damage"

Completely ignores its attached to a flash and invisibility

I haven't seen such biased bullshit since the last time I scanned by Fox News or CNN

dunder kill1 votes

"but I can barely HP over a wall and reach the middle of a lane at level 2 with a basic ability! That's so weak!"

Done with this. Keep rambling that garbage and we'll continue to ignore you alright?

Touch My Box2 votes

{quoted}

"but I can barely HP over a wall and reach the middle of a lane at level 2 with a basic ability! That's so weak!"

Done with this. Keep rambling that garbage and we'll continue to ignore you alright?

Keep being in denial, keep losing to him and keep blaming it on invisible champs.

Wet Dryman1 votes

I'm a guy who has over 200k mastery points with Shaco and I must say that his Q is overloaded. Its damage is not so bad as you max this ability first anyway, it hurts quite a bit especially if you backstab someone. Over 4 seconds invisibility is kinda bullshit too as tricking your enemies is easy as hell and it makes ganking easier for him. It also makes him safer than before. Its cooldown is lower than before since you get some reduction for hitting your enemies with it making him harder to punish by his enemies.

Basically his new Q is better than before because its bonus damage can crit. His old Q did crit only for his overall AD up to 200% with rank 5 (Q was maxed as last or second spell) and it had also longer cooldown, longer duration and you can't be revealed anymore.

His rework did also some other huge balance problems like bringing too much utility (as assassin he should bring very little utility). I blame the boxes that were planted on his ult cuz they add unnecessary zoning potential, heavy AoE CC that in chaos of teamfights is easily applicable and took damage impact of his ult thus making him less enjoyable for me to use.

I can't play this guy anymore. He became so easy to use, tricking enemies is not a big deal anymore, he is way too forgiving in every aspect, I can't even touch bruiser build because it's so busted right now that I feel bad for building him like that. There is no advanced planning, thrill of being outsmarted in teamfights/duels anymore. There is only facerolling.

The only positive aspect of this rework is that AP Shaco on top is much more fair to play against due to power shifts from E to Q.

Trenitaliyah3 votes

item 2055 item 3147 item 3348 item 3364 item 3649

Just sayin'

OtterlyLost1 votes

{quoted}

item 2055 item 3147 item 3348 item 3364 item 3649

Just sayin'

Shaco, Kha, Vayne are unaffected by all of those. Just sayin'. :/ The Red Trinket can "reveal" them but they are still untargetable by those who rely on AA's. I honestly feel like Vayne is the most offensive since it means, post six, no other ADC can duel her. She honestly already has way too much in her kit as well.

Touch My Box1 votes

{quoted}

Shaco, Kha, Vayne are unaffected by all of those. Just sayin'. :/ The Red Trinket can "reveal" them but they are still untargetable by those who rely on AA's. I honestly feel like Vayne is the most offensive since it means, post six, no other ADC can duel her. She honestly already has way too much in her kit as well.

Just because you can't auto them, doesn't mean they don't get fucked up by them. Kha, not so much.. but Shaco is generally squishy and if he gets hit by a skillshot on the way in, he will almost insta-die when he pops out.

OtterlyLost1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Toxic Shaco,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LHI59EEh,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-21T16:07:58.567+0000)

Just because you can't auto them, doesn't mean they don't get fucked up by them. Kha, not so much.. but Shaco is generally squishy and if he gets hit by a skillshot on the way in, he will almost insta-die when he pops out.

Yes, just becanse I can't auto them as a Tristana with no Skillshots or abilities that aren't targeted, does mean that they don't get fucked up by them. :/ None of them are affected or harmed in anyway by these items, especially when against AA based champions who, 9 times out of 10, are the ones they'll be targetting.

Touch My Box1 votes

{quoted}

Yes, just becanse I can't auto them as a Tristana with no Skillshots or abilities that aren't targeted, does mean that they don't get fucked up by them. :/ None of them are affected or harmed in anyway by these items, especially when against AA based champions who, 9 times out of 10, are the ones they'll be targetting.

Your team should be peeling.

You see red shadow, you move away while your support smacks him.

Big Lincoln3 votes

They should add that one trinket from treeline that reveals everything for a couple seconds where you throw it

make it delayed or w/e so that it can be outplayed but we need a means to negate stealth entirely

Touch My Box1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LHI59EEh,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-03-21T15:40:06.092+0000)

They should add that one trinket from treeline that reveals everything for a couple seconds where you throw it

make it delayed or w/e so that it can be outplayed but we need a means to negate stealth entirely

And remove red trinket.

Touch My Box3 votes

How to never ever lose to Shaco again.

Step 1. Play Shaco. Step 2. Notice how red trinket fucks your anus hard. Step 3. Notice how easy to is to be kept permanently shimmered. Step 4. Apply this knowledge to fuck Shaco up.

It's really so fucking simple.

You see him decieve, from the bright orange puff of smoke, so you press 4. You see where he is coming from, so you walk away while throwing AoE at him. He now has no escape since all his mobility/gapclose/damage is tied to his Q. He is stuck in your range on half health with no escape.

Its fucking laughable how pathetic his kit is, it only excels at beating idiots who panic and tunnel vision.

EDIT:Admittedly I play a lot of Ezreal, so the Q fucks him up.. but realistically any skillshot/AoE works.

dominusx2 votes

please dont give me tips about this game unless you are higher rank than me thats one . second red trinket doesnt fk you up since you are no longer this 1500hp oneshot bot with the new builds and you got ulti to avoid big skillshots. third if his kit was this pathetic he wouldnt be a strong champion post his nerfs atm. fourth you dont need to be a retard to die to shaco once he gets a few lvls into his q fifth shaco isnt broken none of the champs in teh list are they are just annoying as fuck t deal with.

Touch My Box2 votes

{quoted}

please dont give me tips about this game unless you are higher rank than me thats one . second red trinket doesnt fk you up since you are no longer this 1500hp oneshot bot with the new builds and you got ulti to avoid big skillshots. third if his kit was this pathetic he wouldnt be a strong champion post his nerfs atm. fourth you dont need to be a retard to die to shaco once he gets a few lvls into his q fifth shaco isnt broken none of the champs in teh list are they are just annoying as fuck t deal with.

That's why he is seen in proplay all the time. Oh wait, no he isn't.

Organised play and general awareness beats his ass black and blue.

Sire Hippington3 votes

Stealth as a defensive mechanic is totally fine, it just shouldn't be paired with oneshot potential...or a 4.5sec duration+blinkShaco -,- Stealth beeing not hardcountered anymore is alot more healthy for the game, but one has to acount for the increased power of that mechanic and adjust the champs that use it acordingly, and riot completely dropped the ball on that.

Touch My Box1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sire Hippington,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LHI59EEh,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2017-03-21T16:10:58.727+0000)

Stealth as a defensive mechanic is totally fine, it just shouldn't be paired with oneshot potential...or a 4.5sec duration+blinkShaco -,- Stealth beeing not hardcountered anymore is alot more healthy for the game, but one has to acount for the increased power of that mechanic and adjust the champs that use it acordingly, and riot completely dropped the ball on that.

Bullshit, any non trash tier player knows that Shaco is only powerful after he snowballs, and he only snowballs from idiotic plays. His early damage was gutted during the rework. He is also VERY vulnerable to invades to put him further behind.

Papa Bear1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sire Hippington,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LHI59EEh,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2017-03-21T16:10:58.727+0000)

Stealth as a defensive mechanic is totally fine, it just shouldn't be paired with oneshot potential...or a 4.5sec duration+blinkShaco -,- Stealth beeing not hardcountered anymore is alot more healthy for the game, but one has to acount for the increased power of that mechanic and adjust the champs that use it acordingly, and riot completely dropped the ball on that.

Honestly stealth as a core mechanic is toxic to the game, regardless of champ. It needs to be cut out like a cancer so the game can be fun for 95% of players who aren't playing this broken mechanic.

Teridax681 votes

I feel the issue isn't so much with stealth as it is with how those champions' kits aren't really properly designed around the mechanic: when you give a champion the ability to go invisible, even if it's camouflage (which I think is a cop-out mechanic that isn't really effective in practice), what you're basically doing is guaranteeing them the ability to strike first, and thereby get to their target in a way no non-stealth champion can achieve. What this means is that you're also giving that champion's target pretty much zero possibility of pre-empting their attack, particularly now that there are far fewer counters to stealth.

All of this is fine in itself, but what that means is that you need to add extra counterplay to stealth champions' kits when they're in the middle of combat, to the point where they offer more options to fight back or escape them, not fewer. If they had the same counterplay as everyone else, they'd simply have less counterplay overall, and that's not good. Instead, however, most stealth champions have less mid-fight counterplay than most others: as mentioned in the OP, champions like Kha, Evelynn and Shaco can deal far too much damage in far too short a span of time the moment they reach you, Vayne and Twitch both have way too much burst for the role they're designed to fill, and Rengar's still the king of feast or famine, where in the worst of cases he can still one-shot squishies from stealth.

The thing is, I think it's a good idea for Riot to remove itemized counters to stealth, and my only regret is that they didn't go far enough, and still kept things like red trinket, control wards and true sight in the game, all of which contradict their original goal. Removing hard-counters is great, because it forces the counterplay to stealth to be added directly onto the relevant champions, and not left around on a bunch of items not everyone will be able to have available at the right time. What isn't so great, however, is that no major work was done afterwards to improve the counterplay on the vast majority of the stealth champion roster, leaving them either weak or unhealthy as a result. I guess reworking the whole stealth champion roster could count as a rework to stealth, but really, what needs to change the most isn't their stealth, but the rest of those champions' kits, and specifically how they output damage.

Touch My Box1 votes

{quoted}

I feel the issue isn't so much with stealth as it is with how those champions' kits aren't really properly designed around the mechanic: when you give a champion the ability to go invisible, even if it's camouflage (which I think is a cop-out mechanic that isn't really effective in practice), what you're basically doing is guaranteeing them the ability to strike first, and thereby get to their target in a way no non-stealth champion can achieve. What this means is that you're also giving that champion's target pretty much zero possibility of pre-empting their attack, particularly now that there are far fewer counters to stealth.

All of this is fine in itself, but what that means is that you need to add extra counterplay to stealth champions' kits when they're in the middle of combat, to the point where they offer more options to fight back or escape them, not fewer. If they had the same counterplay as everyone else, they'd simply have less counterplay overall, and that's not good. Instead, however, most stealth champions have less mid-fight counterplay than most others: as mentioned in the OP, champions like Kha, Evelynn and Shaco can deal far too much damage in far too short a span of time the moment they reach you, Vayne and Twitch both have way too much burst for the role they're designed to fill, and Rengar's still the king of feast or famine, where in the worst of cases he can still one-shot squishies from stealth.

The thing is, I think it's a good idea for Riot to remove itemized counters to stealth, and my only regret is that they didn't go far enough, and still kept things like red trinket, control wards and true sight in the game, all of which contradict their original goal. Removing hard-counters is great, because it forces the counterplay to stealth to be added directly onto the relevant champions, and not left around on a bunch of items not everyone will be able to have available at the right time. What isn't so great, however, is that no major work was done afterwards to improve the counterplay on the vast majority of the stealth champion roster, leaving them either weak or unhealthy as a result. I guess reworking the whole stealth champion roster could count as a rework to stealth, but really, what needs to change the most isn't their stealth, but the rest of those champions' kits, and specifically how they output damage.

Shaco orange puff gives the enemy plenty of warning.

Teridax681 votes

Okay, first off, is that really the only takeaway you got from my entire post?

Also, while Shaco's puff gives a warning, just like Rengar's scream and icon, the only thing it indicates is that Shaco just stealthed in your area: if you're a laner and you spotted it, that's definitely a sign to run, but otherwise it gives no sign of his position, his movement, or his combat plan altogether, so you can't really react to it other than head to your tower/tank. It's not an adequate warning because it runs up against the purpose of stealth itself, which is meant to allow champions to initiate without warning (and the same goes for Rengar's indicators).

My entire point was that Riot should accept stealth as it currently functions, and design stealth champions around their ability to strike without warning: if Shaco's puff were really that consistently effective an indicator, his stealth would be useless, and I think it would be better to remove that, but then prevent him from being able to burst enemies down too quickly afterwards, instead of leaving him in his current state. It should also be one more reason to increase his counterplay in the middle of combat, as most of his damage cannot miss, and he still has a permaslow. Shaco may have received a mini-rework in the Assassin Update, but he isn't healthy by any stretch.

Touch My Box1 votes

{quoted}

Okay, first off, is that really the only takeaway you got from my entire post?

Also, while Shaco's puff gives a warning, just like Rengar's scream and icon, the only thing it indicates is that Shaco just stealthed in your area: if you're a laner and you spotted it, that's definitely a sign to run, but otherwise it gives no sign of his position, his movement, or his combat plan altogether, so you can't really react to it other than head to your tower/tank. It's not an adequate warning because it runs up against the purpose of stealth itself, which is meant to allow champions to initiate without warning (and the same goes for Rengar's indicators).

My entire point was that Riot should accept stealth as it currently functions, and design stealth champions around their ability to strike without warning: if Shaco's puff were really that consistently effective an indicator, his stealth would be useless, and I think it would be better to remove that, but then prevent him from being able to burst enemies down too quickly afterwards, instead of leaving him in his current state. It should also be one more reason to increase his counterplay in the middle of combat, as most of his damage cannot miss, and he still has a permaslow. Shaco may have received a mini-rework in the Assassin Update, but he isn't healthy by any stretch.

The difference is, Shaco isn't permastealth. Wards are effective.

Teridax682 votes

That is yet another complete red herring. Sure, Shaco doesn't have Eve's permastealth, nor does he even have Rengar or Twitch's long-term camouflage, but he's still unhealthy for a ton of other reasons, several of them mentioned in my above post. In the case of champions with long-term stealth, however, that goes back to the first post in this exchange: it's okay for those champions to have less pre-fight counterplay, since that's the purpose of stealth, so long as they have extra amounts of counterplay during combat. Currently that's not the case, as many assassin kits still have far too much point-and-click, front-loaded burst, which is why those champions are unhealthy.

More from Gameplay

More by dominusx