Give Garen a Spin resource

Big Lincoln·Dec 11, 2016·1 votes·504 views

and make it so that when he cancels his spin he can reactivate it to pick up where he left off, and if it isn't used after a few seconds it'll recharge on its own (recharges faster with CDR), speed up his AA and Q animations (not attack speed) so that he can more reasonably DPS in between spins

now garen has a much higher skill cap because you have to time when to cancel spins and mix AAs in there, but his overall kit and theme isn't affected. and now he can be the chainsaw he was meant to be and his juggernaut niche can be unrelenting sustained damage

adjust damage numbers as needed

14 Comments

Big LincolnDec 11, 20161 votes

bump, justice for garen xd

Critmaster GarenDec 12, 20161 votes

his resource bar would actually be a good visual indicator for a sustain mechanic.

while he spins on one or multiple enemy champions, you could see it charging up. when the spin ends or is canceled, it starts to drain and his passive activates (despite being in combat), until it reaches zero.

Big LincolnDec 12, 20161 votes

unlimited spins though xd

needs more dps if he's gonna compete

Critmaster GarenDec 12, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LFA8PhOt,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-12-12T15:41:59.487+0000)

unlimited spins though xd

needs more dps if he's gonna compete

he doesnt neccessarily need more dps. garen doesnt even dps well, not because hes lacking damage, but simply because he gets out sustained.

he cant bridge the time between spin cooldowns.

where other juggernauts have the ability to constantly dps with short cooldown abilities like yoricks shovel, darius q and w, or illaois tentacle q and w, garen has 3 seconds of spin and then a 6 second window of basically doing nothing.

even recently ive beaten one with nasus in lane aswell. the only thing i had to do was q minions between trades while his spin was on cooldown, to heal back up and keep his passive down by rotating wither and e.

thats the sad part. literally one of the worst early game champions in the game beats garen, simply because he can wear him down and eventually push him out of lane.

Big LincolnDec 12, 20161 votes

right, that's what the change suggests. letting E start back up on his spins, but cancel them freely, means he can afford to build an item that gives him sustain so he can auto in between his spins. like hydra, or death's dance, or bloodthirster even.

so he could do like Q-E, cancel, AA, then go right back into his E. And then since it'll regen up faster late game, he can effectively do that endlessly as long as he isn't CC'd or disengaged. if that makes sense

his passive sustain is a big issue but it doesn't seem like Riot's willing to change it

Critmaster GarenDec 12, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LFA8PhOt,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-12T15:48:48.386+0000)

right, that's what the change suggests. letting E start back up on his spins, but cancel them freely, means he can afford to build an item that gives him sustain so he can auto in between his spins. like hydra, or death's dance, or bloodthirster even.

so he could do like Q-E, cancel, AA, then go right back into his E. And then since it'll regen up faster late game, he can effectively do that endlessly as long as he isn't CC'd or disengaged. if that makes sense

his sustain is a big issue but it doesn't seem like Riot's willing to change it

maybe they will change it when they see how little the buff actually did.

i cant belive meddler will kep clinging to this idea that disengaging from a fight to regenerate actually works for him. especially considering how quickly fights are decided.

Big LincolnDec 12, 20161 votes

you know what's even sadder is i can't duel malphite at all, a full tank outduels a fuckin' melee carry.

that buff was pretty worthless, honestly. could have given garen more DPS, could have given him a way to survive fights in between his cooldowns because he has some of the worst autos in the melee class -- nobody asked for armor shred, lol.

i would rather have anything else, to be honest. i still like my idea a lot tho, opens up a lot of builds for him.

Critmaster GarenDec 12, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LFA8PhOt,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-12T15:54:45.758+0000)

you know what's even sadder is i can't duel malphite at all, a full tank outduels a fuckin' melee carry.

that buff was pretty worthless, honestly. could have given garen more DPS, could have given him a way to survive fights in between his cooldowns because he has some of the worst autos in the melee class -- nobody asked for armor shred, lol.

i would rather have anything else, to be honest. i still like my idea a lot tho, opens up a lot of builds for him.

this is why i want them to replace the armor shred with a form of in combat sustain. every single champion who is expected to deal sustained damage, and especially juggernauts have some form of sustain that allows them to keep going through a fight.

i feel like its garens one glaring weakness, and why he keeps losing to carries and tanks. he simply gets stat checked by lifesteal and shields.

here is what i would have done with the buff.

perseverence (passive):

cooldown changed to 8 seconds.

out of combat health regeneration changed to 3% missing health per second.

the exact value early on is debatable. but this is what his passive should be at lvl 16

judgement - new effect:

when garen hits enemy champions with spins, perseverence activates for 0.5 seconds for each spin tick on each enemy champion when judgement ends. (maximum 5 seconds)

ive went ahead and photoshopped an indicator on his resource bar to visualize the effect.

http://imgur.com/a/w1vUj

the green bar basically charges up while he hits enemies with spins, and when the spin ends, it drains while regenerating him. the maximum amount hed be able to regenerate would be 15% of his missing health over 5 seconds in fight.

his passive otherwise still goes on cooldown when he is hit by champion damage (or jungle monsters).

spinning on more enemy champions makes it charge up faster. which means should he cancel his spin early, hed be able to benefit drom the heal sooner, but stops dealing damage.

the entire idea is, to give him something more to do and to survive during the periods his spin is on cooldown.

he would be able to stay in fights longer, should he get on top of his opponents.

thinking about it, a gray health bar like tahm has would probably be more appropriate. maybe both indicators can be combined. the green bar to show how far the regeneration timer is stacked, and a gray health bar to show how much actual health its going to restore.

Big LincolnDec 12, 20161 votes

i think I've already expressed my agreement for in-combat sustain before, but you put it in an especially compelling way, I might come back to that idea.

my biggest issue with it really, is that it still doesn't really differentiate him from Darius enough. It's still absolutely needed for him as basic common sense would dictate a tanky, immobile carry would need, but I still have the question of 'why pick Garen unless I enjoy him that much'

my change tries to solve that; in that Darius may be much better in 5v5s provided he pops his passive, but Garen would be much stronger in 1v1s and small skirmishes; overall just a much better duelist. I'm sure both ideas could work on the same kit with some shuffling around; I only suggested putting his spin on the resource bar so the enemy knows how many rotations he's got left. It'd also create a nice dynamic of 'letting the full spin go off to build up the heal' vs sacrificing the heal in exchange for putting out as much damage as possible.

Critmaster GarenDec 12, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LFA8PhOt,comment-id=00010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-12T16:59:54.495+0000)

i think I've already expressed my agreement for in-combat sustain before, but you put it in an especially compelling way, I might come back to that idea.

my biggest issue with it really, is that it still doesn't really differentiate him from Darius enough. It's still absolutely needed for him as basic common sense would dictate a tanky, immobile carry would need, but I still have the question of 'why pick Garen unless I enjoy him that much'

my change tries to solve that; in that Darius may be much better in 5v5s provided he pops his passive, but Garen would be much stronger in 1v1s and small skirmishes; overall just a much better duelist. I'm sure both ideas could work on the same kit with some shuffling around; I only suggested putting his spin on the resource bar so the enemy knows how many rotations he's got left. It'd also create a nice dynamic of 'letting the full spin go off to build up the heal' vs sacrificing the heal in exchange for putting out as much damage as possible.

when it comes to why pick garen over darius, then id say they should work on refining the villain mechanic.

darius is an aoe teamfight monster who deals escalating damage to everything in his path. garen wants to just go ham on one selected target. his villain mechanic kinda supports that, but still has some issues. imo if they were to iron it out a bit more, it could define his nieche as an anti carry very well.

the armor shred imo did nothing for him in that regard. like, why pick garen for armor shred, when you can pick Darius Riven Graves or other bruisers who synergize with item 3071 and do the same thing?

Big LincolnDec 12, 20161 votes

i'm not too fond of the villain mechanic but if they were to keep it, I would say replacing the damage aspect with utilitarian functions. like, giving him more means of getting to them than just doing more damage. more means of fighting the villain without actually boosting his damage output directly . like, QW more effective vs the villain so he can ruin their day.

also am I wrong in feeling his auto attacks and Q are unnecessarily slow? in the game vs malphite, every time I Q'd, he could wait until the entire animation was finished to E before he'd get silenced. i don't recall anyone else having the same slowness on their hits besides Jax.

Critmaster GarenDec 12, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LFA8PhOt,comment-id=0001000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-12T17:14:39.531+0000)

i'm not too fond of the villain mechanic but if they were to keep it, I would say replacing the damage aspect with utilitarian functions. like, giving him more means of getting to them than just doing more damage. more means of fighting the villain without actually boosting his damage output directly . like, QW more effective vs the villain so he can ruin their day.

also am I wrong in feeling his auto attacks and Q are unnecessarily slow? in the game vs malphite, every time I Q'd, he could wait until the entire animation was finished to E before he'd get silenced. i don't recall anyone else having the same slowness on their hits besides Jax.

his base attack speed is pretty decent, but his q animation is incredibly slow. if youve seen the first all star match, it was kindof a trolly midlane between faker on galio and xpeke on garen.

faker was able to shield himself with w every time between the start of the decisive strike animation and before its finished.

its honestly one of the biggest nerfs that ever hit him, back when they made garens visual update. previously he was able to auto attack + animation cancel with q + animation cancel and auto attack in rapid succession. it was one of the factors that made him strong in early lane trades.

his q animation right now is laughable. most champions can hit some sort of mobility tool or defensive steroid between the start of the animation and the time the attack actually connects.

Big LincolnDec 12, 20161 votes

that should be buffed for sure, then. considering it's probably one of the lightest CCs ever (1.5 second silence in melee range and only to one person) and a fairly mediocre damage button, it seems absurd he gives you so much time to react to it

or we could do away with it entirely, personally im a fan of how dota2 handles strength heroes and a Sven-like line stun on his Q would be pretty choice. juggernauts not having CC i think is a mistake since it makes them so easy to hardcounter with range. that's a very radical change that Garen probably doesn't actually need right now, but it'll always be my dream

MetalGearTeemuDec 16, 20161 votes

This has long been why Garen has always been considered meh at higher tiers (at least since the sunfire stack days.).

Unless you're playing on authentic Brazilian internet, you can basically hold any mobility skill, wait until his Q animated, and then use it to escape his trade potential. The animation is so long that its not hard to confirm its start and activate. At high level Garen doesn't have any faking potential with the skill, so an on point player can always react to it if they're looking for it. And sometimes even to flash plays if they're particularly attentive.

Garen is an example of when a player has no playmaking options, and are entirely at the mercy of the other laner to mess up his counterplay.