Why Is Balancing so Hard?

pwc2016··2 votes·904 views

I'm an avid MTG and LoL player.

For those who may not know, around 2016/2017 Magic was in a tricky spot. Balance was AWFUL. Multiple cards had been banned in the standard format, and that had not happened since the Mirrodin block. So how does this relate to LoL? Well, both games have similar ways in which things can be unbalanced.

Reason 1: Playtesters don't anticipate X becoming powerful/weak. I get the feeling that often Riot releases buffs/nerfs thinking that they're fine, only to realize they are not and are too impactful. Similar to how some Magic cards had to be banned because they seemed fine in play testing, this seems to be the case for a lot of Riot's balancing problems.

Reason 2: Kits are too synergistic within themselves/overloaded. I mean, look at Akali. Her kit is just overloaded with dashes (and possibly damage). Essentially, your abilities are cards. And using an ability is like using the card then getting it back when it's off cool down. But this is a problem because some things are fundamentally broken when they can be abused in too short of a time (i.e. the old 40 lightening bolts and 20 mountains). It'd be like ALWAYS having X card in your hand. It's broken.

Ideas on solving the issues:

For case 1, I suggest getting some one-tricks to test the changes first. Having a team of pro players playlets cards before release has been considered by the Magic community, and I think getting one-tricks to test changes would be amazingly helpful for Riot.

For case 2, I think Riot needs to better define what constitutes different Classes. Akali is broken (to a lesser degree than before, but still) because her shroud breaks what Assassins are supposed to do. It provides too much safety which is not what assassins do. Look at Kai'sa's E giving her AS and Invis, her ult giving a shield, her passive giving an execute...none of these are really things marksmen traditionally have. Riot needs to push the envelope while still maintaining the classes consistently.

8 Comments

Syrile3 votes

A big problem is the fact that cooldowns are basically nonexistent now. Previously, you could trade around cooldowns and that added real depth and skill to the game. Now, that is basically gone.

Mix that with the insane amounts of mobility and insta-burst damage and the game is all flash and flair and almost no balance or skill. It is all for show so bad players can pretend they are amazing when they push two buttons and do something that looks impressive.

MtG has been the same way for a long time actually. For example, card designs are so heavily geared towards Mythics that the regular decks must be insanely expensive to be viable. But worse, this adds a huge amount of variance to the game because you can simply top-deck a win-con almost any turn and get free wins. Long ago the game was heavily geared towards skill. A truly great player would have a 90%+ winrate against a bad player. Now, the variance with the absurd card designs is closer to 30%.

This is intentional. It allows bad players to get free wins and think they are doing great. Riot is taking the same business model and it is terrible.

Jamaree3 votes

{quoted}

I'm an avid MTG and LoL player.

For those who may not know, around 2016/2017 Magic was in a tricky spot. Balance was AWFUL. Multiple cards had been banned in the standard format, and that had not happened since the Mirrodin block. So how does this relate to LoL? Well, both games have similar ways in which things can be unbalanced.

Ah, Kaladesh block, fun cards, energy was a cancer mechanic, and mono red aggro splashing black were literally 7 of the top 8 at certain major tourneys, fun times.

Reason 2: Kits are too synergistic within themselves/overloaded. I mean, look at Akali. Her kit is just overloaded with dashes (and possibly damage). Essentially, your abilities are cards. And using an ability is like using the card then getting it back when it's off cool down. But this is a problem because some things are fundamentally broken when they can be abused in too short of a time (i.e. the old 40 lightening bolts and 20 mountains). It'd be like ALWAYS having X card in your hand. It's broken.

Ideas on solving the issues:

For case 1, I suggest getting some one-tricks to test the changes first. Having a team of pro players playlets cards before release has been considered by the Magic community, and I think getting one-tricks to test changes would be amazingly helpful for Riot.

The problem with this mindset is that one tricks will lie and be bias about them to keep them stronger or get them buffed. Hashinshin is a perfect example of this. There have been multiple times when Jax was considered by many to be one of, if not the best champion in the game, he still whined about ranged champions being too strong. Players want the best for their champions and things they play and fail to consider the flipside.

For case 2, I think Riot needs to better define what constitutes different Classes. Akali is broken (to a lesser degree than before, but still) because her shroud breaks what Assassins are supposed to do. It provides too much safety which is not what assassins do.

If we want to maintain this MTG analogy, Akali is a control deck. She has tools to do a lot but falls short in certain categories. She isn't easy by any regards and by that notion, give a newer player a control deck, and they won't understand what they are supposed to counter, what to bounce, what to destroy, what to control in general to utilize, but then give a pro that same control deck and you will wish for the sweet embrace of death and the numbers also showcase this mindset.

Akali at low elos: https://u.gg/lol/champions/akali/build?rank=bronze

https://u.gg/lol/champions/akali/build?rank=silver

https://u.gg/lol/champions/akali/build?rank=gold

https://u.gg/lol/champions/akali/build?rank=platinum

https://u.gg/lol/champions/akali/build?rank=diamond

Akali doesn't start hitting an average win rate until Master https://u.gg/lol/champions/akali/build?rank=master

https://u.gg/lol/champions/akali/build?rank=grandmaster

https://u.gg/lol/champions/akali/build?rank=challenger

And there isn't a single elo where her win rate is 50%.

Riot needs to push the envelope while still maintaining the classes consistently.

This mindset is SO much more easier said then done, I don't think people realize just how impossibly hard this kind of thing is.

pwc20161 votes

{quoted}

Ah, Kaladesh block, fun cards, energy was a cancer mechanic, and mono red aggro splashing black were literally 7 of the top 8 at certain major tourneys, fun times.

The problem with this mindset is that one tricks will lie and be bias about them to keep them stronger or get them buffed. Hashinshin is a perfect example of this. There have been multiple times when Jax was considered by many to be one of, if not the best champion in the game, he still whined about ranged champions being too strong. Players want the best for their champions and things they play and fail to consider the flipside.

If we want to maintain this MTG analogy, Akali is a control deck. She has tools to do a lot but falls short in certain categories. She isn't easy by any regards and by that notion, give a newer player a control deck, and they won't understand what they are supposed to counter, what to bounce, what to destroy, what to control in general to utilize, but then give a pro that same control deck and you will wish for the sweet embrace of death and the numbers also showcase this mindset.

Akali at low elos: https://u.gg/lol/champions/akali/build?rank=bronze

https://u.gg/lol/champions/akali/build?rank=silver

https://u.gg/lol/champions/akali/build?rank=gold

https://u.gg/lol/champions/akali/build?rank=platinum

https://u.gg/lol/champions/akali/build?rank=diamond

Akali doesn't start hitting an average win rate until Master https://u.gg/lol/champions/akali/build?rank=master

https://u.gg/lol/champions/akali/build?rank=grandmaster

https://u.gg/lol/champions/akali/build?rank=challenger

And there isn't a single elo where her win rate is 50%.

This mindset is SO much more easier said then done, I don't think people realize just how impossibly hard this kind of thing is.

No, I agree, I think balancing is incredibly hard. It's even harder in League because things can randomly become meta for little/no reason, and the game is constantly evolving. Do you balance around FOTM? It's hard, and I think the balancing team really does get shit on a little too much. (Also an avid Akali player, I don't think she's broken, I just know lots of peoples still think she's overloaded, though I disagree and think she's pretty fair at the moment).

Jamaree3 votes

{quoted}

No, I agree, I think balancing is incredibly hard. It's even harder in League because things can randomly become meta for little/no reason, and the game is constantly evolving.

That is every video game that updates really.

Do you balance around FOTM?

Depends, are you trying to make the funniest game to play possible, or the most balance.

If fun, then yeah, balance FoTM, if balance, nope, you let people attempt to figure out a champion's weaknesses and counters BEFORE nerfing them if things appear too much.

It's hard, and I think the balancing team really does get shit on a little too much.

They honestly do.

xelaker2 votes

It is for sure, getting that out of the way first. Ahem. Balancing is so hard when you are trying to balance how much money you can squeeze out of a playerbase without making them quit giving you money. There's always dumb, obvious things that riot does balance wise that don't make any sense to anyone but that champ's mains

Kai Guy2 votes

Mtg and LOL are built around perfect imbalance as a concept. Its fairly impressive how well both accomplish it. Boards will flip their shit over 3% win rate changes. But 54% is not at all a terrifying number.

The concept of balance has many variations by individuals. I would love if collectively we just started to approach it as game health. To many folks want 50% WR with no accounting for skill floor or ceeling. Mobas and mrg need friendly low cap options. The learning curve is brutal.

Homeland was one of the most "balanced"sets. 0 banned cards if my memory serves but its a boring fucking block.

Rock paper scissor balance is bad for draft games. Team synergy to add viability? Relys on players knowing how to patch counters. Thats not this games playerbase. Its stupidly selfish for a team game.

5 man premades are the most competitive format. Harder to run.

Just my take.

pwc20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LE45KWAX,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-10-16T06:34:29.335+0000)

Mtg and LOL are built around perfect imbalance as a concept. Its fairly impressive how well both accomplish it. Boards will flip their shit over 3% win rate changes. But 54% is not at all a terrifying number.

The concept of balance has many variations by individuals. I would love if collectively we just started to approach it as game health. To many folks want 50% WR with no accounting for skill floor or ceeling. Mobas and mrg need friendly low cap options. The learning curve is brutal.

Homeland was one of the most "balanced"sets. 0 banned cards if my memory serves but its a boring fucking block.

Rock paper scissor balance is bad for draft games. Team synergy to add viability? Relys on players knowing how to patch counters. Thats not this games playerbase. Its stupidly selfish for a team game.

5 man premades are the most competitive format. Harder to run.

Just my take.

Yeah you can give the balance team shit but the fact that we don't have champs with 60 or 70 percent win rates across all elos is fairly impressive considering some decks in MTG become so powerful they overtake everything else.

Kai Guy1 votes

One thing i see as an issue with running balance in cycles. The expectation is that players will attempt to deal with it, adapt to meta shifts, and your job as a dev for this balance is to provide enough tools that there is always a solution/counter to anything you throw at them. High # of League players don't seem to understand this.

MTG has a luck aspect, always. This can be brutal and require cards to get banned when something overperforms. Leauge has thousands of players who literally do the same things over and over and over. OTP who is hard countered by majority of meta? To bad...gonna OTP that every game. A champion who requires a item counter? DrMundo for example? People will Cookie Cutter their build the same for each and every game... better hope the support takes ignite.

People are unwilling to learn and invest into the skillsets that would give them tools to deal with an ever chaining meta. To be Fair, The advice people get is not good advice. "play hard carrys" Ok.... Welcome to the damage meta. How many folks spamming Feast or Famine hypercarrys and ignoring a balanced party composition this year? "just 1 trick something" Great as long as your good at it to a level your above your peers. Just takes less effort to learn matchups faster way to improve and climb but not ideal once you hit your cap.

One tricking is a great way to learn a champion, once you have their mechanics you should look to widen your pool. How many League Players in the Pro level can be hard countered by the enemy using 1 ban?

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