Grades should be a factor determining MMR gains/losses

The Cane Master·Jul 21, 2017·4 votes·1,669 views

As we all know, not all of the teammates perform equally, i.e. not all contribute equally to the end result of the game. That being said, those that perform better should be rewarded more for wins, as well as punished less for losses. How do we know how well everyone performed? Grades were introduced quite some time ago, and now that keys aren't awarded by getting S, they are kinda unused (except for lvl6 and 7 mastery). If this came through, most of the people should keep trying when they are losing, and be less complacent when winning on order to retain the highest grade possible to maximise LP. Thoughts?

37 Comments

Truly PridefulJul 21, 20174 votes

It's a bad idea because I can pump up my score by ignoring the team and just getting high cs/min in a lost game. It's also not a uniform system based on role, it's also based on champion so playing something really off would be a lot less punishing than having a mediocre game on a "meta" pick.

The Cane MasterJul 21, 20172 votes

It's a bad idea because I can pump up my score by ignoring the team and just getting high cs/min in a lost game. It's also not a uniform system based on role, it's also based on champion so playing something really off would be a lot less punishing than having a mediocre game on a "meta" pick.

There is no way you can pump up CS so much and not get punished for it by ganks. And if playing ''non meta'' picks would somehow be encouraged, I see no reason why it shouldn't be that way since meta picks are the ones that are getting you more victories in the first place. So sure, if you want to lose constantly but lose less LP when you do, feel free to play awkward champ/role combinations, you'll be bronze 5 in no time regardless.

Truly PridefulJul 21, 20171 votes

It's not that difficult to pump up your grade if you are really trying to. You'd be amazed at what neglecting your team "earns" you from the system. I've had people with absolutely abyssmal kill participation get an S- because they farmed lanes and the jungle all game. The grading system isn't uniform enough to reward people for.

I don't think there's anything wrong with off meta picks, but you shouldn't be punished harder for losing as a support Thresh than someone playing something awkward like a support Darius just because it was easier for them to obtain a high grade.

For the mastery system to be factored into any kind of ranking all roles would be forced to have a baseline grade system and throw the basis of champions out.

SecondChanceHeroJul 21, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Call Me Jhinpai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=L3pQ7u9Y,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-21T19:59:03.238+0000)

It's not that difficult to pump up your grade

I dunno about y'all, but I get an S of some sort in probably 60% or more of the games I played just playing naturally. You don't have to try to "pump it up" because that's counterproductive and leads to losses and worse individual performance. The system takes into account your farming, sure, but also kill participation, where you were on the map when things happened, your vision control, objective control and objectives taken, all the little things that allow you to win a match.

Playing to "pump up" your grade inevitably decreases it because the grading system is designed to reflect your contribution to a win. If you stop contributing to the win to focus on preserving your KDA your grade decreases naturally.

The entire argument that players will abuse the grading system is a complete fallacy, it just seems logical when it actually isn't. Hope that helped clarify a bit for ya.

SecondChanceHeroJul 21, 20173 votes

Yep.

When I originally came up with the rough outline concept of champion mastery not quite 5 years back this was its intended purpose. Manipulating the MMR and LP gains/losses of players to account for performance with the greatest weight still given to wins or losses (only gain mmr/LP for wins, losses just meant you lost less if you performed well.)

The system was used, modified, and implemented. But not the functionality of it. There are various reasons for that, but none of them were great. This is a change that needs to occur if people ever want the ladder to be fixed, but it's a tough change to make correctly.

In the end the system we currently use works, just not very well and it takes forever to reach an accurate skill level, hundreds or thousands of games for most players. It's kinda strange that's the case when it's obvious sometimes that the system is functioning poorly, as I made light of with this thread:

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/GD/aYt44eZZ-my-issue-with-the-ranked-and-matchmaking-systems-summed-up

It's also strange when the league system doesn't accurately reflect rankings dictated by MMR, it can leave players feeling confused and disillusioned. For example the next season I had a new account with D4 MMR after 25 games but the system wanted to classify me as "gold 1" because the league system display over rides the actual skill rank of an account. I made a joke in M&G about that instance:

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/memes/zxY08dfq-tfw-you-have-an-mmr-of-170-and-an-83-win-rate-in-ranked

Understandably those kinds of situations will be frustrating to many players and unecesarry frustration often leads to toxicity of various forms, so in effect part of League's problems with a toxic community stem from the extremely poor ranked and matchmaking systems. Sad, but true.

None of this will change OP, but I wish you luck anyways and wanted to let you know that yes, even those of us in the top 1% like myself and Neacy are aware the entire system is dysfunctional because individual performance is never accounted for yet players are ranked on an individual basis.

The Cane MasterJul 21, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Yep.

When I originally came up with the rough outline concept of champion mastery not quite 5 years back this was its intended purpose. Manipulating the MMR and LP gains/losses of players to account for performance with the greatest weight still given to wins or losses (only gain mmr/LP for wins, losses just meant you lost less if you performed well.)

The system was used, modified, and implemented. But not the functionality of it. There are various reasons for that, but none of them were great. This is a change that needs to occur if people ever want the ladder to be fixed, but it's a tough change to make correctly.

In the end the system we currently use works, just not very well and it takes forever to reach an accurate skill level, hundreds or thousands of games for most players. It's kinda strange that's the case when it's obvious sometimes that the system is functioning poorly, as I made light of with this thread:

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/GD/aYt44eZZ-my-issue-with-the-ranked-and-matchmaking-systems-summed-up

It's also strange when the league system doesn't accurately reflect rankings dictated by MMR, it can leave players feeling confused and disillusioned. For example the next season I had a new account with D4 MMR after 25 games but the system wanted to classify me as "gold 1" because the league system display over rides the actual skill rank of an account. I made a joke in M&G about that instance:

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/memes/zxY08dfq-tfw-you-have-an-mmr-of-170-and-an-83-win-rate-in-ranked

Understandably those kinds of situations will be frustrating to many players and unecesarry frustration often leads to toxicity of various forms, so in effect part of League's problems with a toxic community stem from the extremely poor ranked and matchmaking systems. Sad, but true.

None of this will change OP, but I wish you luck anyways and wanted to let you know that yes, even those of us in the top 1% like myself and Neacy are aware the entire system is dysfunctional because individual performance is never accounted for yet players are ranked on an individual basis.

Thank you very much, don't forget that 10% of the people are the most intelligent, while 90% are mediocre. That is why downvote train always works and democracy always wins, which is a bad thing.

SiyothJul 21, 20172 votes

This is also a bad idea because the grade doesn't take into account enough things. Say you are top Malphite, you don't do much till mid game where you get 3, 5 man ults however you die each fight giving you a score of 0/3/15. You could nearly single handedly earn a win for your team while only getting a B.

The Cane MasterJul 21, 20171 votes

If you do win the teamfights for your team it means that your team is going to get many kills, meaning that you'll accrue many asissts earning you S more often than not.

SiyothJul 21, 20171 votes

A score of 0/3/15 will never give you an S

The Cane MasterJul 21, 20171 votes

{quoted}

A score of 0/3/15 will never give you an S

With enough CS it will, you just need to find the right time to farm and the right time to fight. You can't just leave the lane at 6 and roam around all the time until you find an opening, you'll be losing a lot of cs, a turret and potentially another objective on that side of the map you left/

SwiftKitten88Jul 21, 20172 votes

there is NOTHING wrong with this idea... its a GREAT idea and one i personally have posted myself many times.

stop trying using the argument people will abuse the system and play incorrectly to gain more LP.

the ENTIRE GRADING SYSTEM is based around how good you do and is based around you playing correctly.. if you NOT actively helping you team your grade should be LOWER.

if they do implement this they will be FORCED to make a grading system more accurate and spend more time figuring out what is abuse-able to get a higher grade. and that would make the grading system BETTER anyways.

riot should be trying to improve the grading system anyways. if they is a flaw they should fix it regardless of if it effects LP.

right now they ARN'T doing that.. becuase the system is MOSTLY accurate.. and the people who do want to abuse it and break the system. onyl have to break it for 2x S- and 3x S

if more people go out of there way to try to break the system.. the faster we can find flaws to make it better

THATS WHY WE HAVE A PBE SERVER!!! THATS WHY ALPHA/BETA TESTS EXIST!!!

KloqdqJul 21, 20171 votes

The system is far to easy to abuse and change at your will for it to be used for something like MMR or LP. I play Kat jungle and get an S but I was pretty useless. I still got the S but I didn't help anyone and I am going to level up far quicker than someone not using something off meta. You just left your team to 4v5 as you farmed side lanes all game. You will probably get an S with your 300 cs but you didn't do anything to help your team. You are a tank, diver, whatever. You are actively engaging fights and making plays but it causes you to die. Deaths and CS HEAVILY effect your rating. It means some people will naturally just be gaining more LP or MMR because of it.

The grading system itself is a broken pile of crap with how it works. Using it for LP or MMR is just plain idiotic.

SecondChanceHeroJul 21, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Deaths and CS HEAVILY

Not really. Except for low level players. At my skill range it's not at all uncommon for 8 people in a match to have an S.

The entire thought process that has people believing things like "cs and deaths are weighted so heavy" is a low elo thought process because the players are too unskilled to perform consistently well. When you reach high level play and everyone can perform pretty consistently the grades are almost entirely dependent on winning or losing the match, contributing to the victory in other words.

An S grade is supposed to reflect your individual performance rating in the top 5% or so of players. Consistently getting S's in wins should move you up the ladder much faster. Consistently getting B's in wins should move you at a just below average pace.

What you can't do is have an S account for too much. Say you win and got an S+ and would regularly receive 20 LP and 20 MMR, instead you now get 25 of each. What about a loss? Instead of losing 20 each its only 15. This allows consistently good individual performance to matter without allowing a single lucky game to swing things too far one direction or the other. Individual performance accounting for about 25% of your rank is a nice compromise.

The name of the game is consistency.

KloqdqJul 22, 20171 votes

That's the thing with the current system though. I know if I do well and win game, I will climb faster and be able to stay higher quickly. The only problem is when you are hard-struck in an elo. That is a matter of the individual. This system would just make things far more complicated then it really needs to be. If a person is losing, they have something to do with it at least 80% of the time I'd say. Unless you got like Shaclone int'ing on your team.

ChargeItDownMidJul 22, 20171 votes

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SecondChanceHeroJul 22, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Ranked is far more accurate if grades are kept away.

That's already been empirically proven untrue. Sorry mate.

ChargeItDownMidJul 22, 20171 votes

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SecondChanceHeroJul 22, 20173 votes

{quoted}

O-o what are you talking about? That has never been proven untrue. The only empirical evidence we have is that the grading system is horrible.

Negative sir.

You have empirical evidence of the ranking system being flawed in a dramatic fashion. In fact it's simple to see.

There are two systems responsible for the ranked ladder: the MMR system (which actually does all the work and is the only factor used in matchmaking), and the League System (which is a cover sheet for MMR that displays a rank and is used for nothing).

These two systems overlap but do not align. I personally proved myself last season that because of those facts you can have an MMR of 2100+ (D4) and yet be "ranked" as a "Gold 1". I spent 150 some odd games after that point playing almost exclusively diamond level talent just to promote to plat 5 and on up to diamond. There can be no doubts when that is the case. The only way to correct that flaw is to accelerate the pace at which a player moves on the ladder if they perform consistently.

That's about as empirical as evidence gets, it was well documented too, I did a whole 3 week unranked to diamond challenge run last season to acquire that information and post the results to the boards.

I know it sucks to hear you were wrong, but that is the case. The grading system may not be perfect, but the current set up isn't either. It's pathetically awful actually. What would improve things is if all 3 of these systems started to be used together. Just as with triangulation you need points to base your reference from, the League ranked ladder needs multiple systems working together to achieve proper results and the only way to accomplish this is by allowing individual performance to matter for one's individual ranking.

ChargeItDownMidJul 22, 20171 votes

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oOBestEveNAOoJul 22, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Also, if you actually have an account that got to diamond last season, post on your main. Don't hide behind a smurf. That completely kills your credibility.

Posting on a smurf allows me to identify players and posters who have a closed mind and are incapable of understanding things.

Their presumptions cause them to fail.

As you have now. Lol.

I'm JayMC1130, feel free to check that accounts profile, you can type the name in the search function and find it pretty easy. The posts are there for you to go through at your leisure. There's 7 years of posting history and dozens of various expirements. Take your time going through them. You'll probably need a lot of time to understand anything since your mind is closed and incapable of learning what it does not yet know.

You're pretty new to the boards. I'm not. In fact I'm pretty well known. Next time try making less foolish assumptions. It keeps you from sticking your foot in your mouth.

SecondChanceHeroJul 22, 20172 votes

{quoted}

On top of that, the grading system is so terrible that there is zero evidence it would improve the rank system at all. The mmr system is strictly superior as a measurement of current skill and the league system is strictly superior as a measurement of the rank an account has proven it can play at.

Negative sir.

Your account proves WHY it's poor at the job actually.

You average about 7 cs or less a minute as a solo laner and less than 4 as a jg (for comparison I average 2 more in each role, there's a significant skill disparity shown by that and our win rate, kill participation, etc). There are a number of other similar individual skill metrics, such as your negative win rate. By all the metric evaluations you're a mid plat player at best. A fact confirmed by your extremely tanked MMR.

The fact is Riot has made the system more and more forgiving each year so inferior players don't get upset at deranking. You're a player who doesn't deserve a diamond rating. According to all the metrics, and the MMR system. Yet you have a bad and arrogant attitude because of the poorly constructed League System which has you rated as a "diamond".

There is no more proof required that the system is dysfunctional than the fact that you exist as a player.

Thanks for making that point so concisely for us, we appreciate your making it so clear.

ChargeItDownMidJul 22, 20172 votes

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SecondChanceHeroJul 22, 20172 votes

{quoted}

A win/loss system does that even better than an individual skill system.

Sigh, not even reading the posts.

A system that incorporates BOTH sets of metrics is better than a system that only incorporates one.

You're the type of person who probably thinks baseball was better off using Homeruns and ERA to evaluate player skill than Wins Above Replacement.

Every single sport in the world has switched to the metrics model. Because it's superior. It incorporates all facets of a players contributions.

I never attacked you, i simply pointed out that you were hiding behind a smurf so that you can make up numbers on the spot instead of taking the time to actually analyze the data. You got your panties in a bundle from that and started to throw out groundless accusations at me because you realistically had no ground to stand on. You can keep pulling out imaginary numbers that you believe my mmr to be so that you can appear superior in your fragile mind but all that does is expose you as a fraud even more.

You've attacked me several times. I don't hide behind smurfs, lol, I posted on a couple. You don't even care which it is, you're so angry about being wrong you attacked me on both.

I didn't make up any numbers.

I even provided you with a SOURCE TO GET THEM AND ALL THE POSTS RELEVANT TO THE DISCUSSION, and you ignored it and attacked me some more. All you have to do is go to a profile history and check some posts where all the info you want already is, players playing with me, spectating and commenting on the boards as they watch my games, etc.

Your arguing now instead of bother to go and check those facts just because you're a toxic player. And that toxic attitude is a result of your improper ranking more than anything else.

Edit: well apparently we ran out of room in the discussion tree so i'll just add a branch here.

No, I wasn't talking you, you've done nothing but derail the thread for several comments and I don't contribute to that degeneracy. I was responding to another person entirely and you attacked me yet again.

Sigh.

No helping a fool prevent himself from looking a fool.