New Assassin Dagger

Jbels··12 votes·5,234 views

New Assassin Dagger

Recipe: Serrated Dirk + B.F. Sword + ??? gold (over 3000 gold total, still fine tuning)
+75 Attack Damage
+5% Movement Speed
UNIQUE Passive: +10 Armor Penetration
UNIQUE Passive: Basic attacks on an enemy champion apply Nightfall (60 second cooldown).
Nightfall: After 2 seconds, deal 25% of the target’s missing health as physical damage. If the target dies before Nightfall ends, the cooldown is refunded.

Yeah, so this is an item currently in the works, and I have to say...I really don't like the idea of this item. 25% of your missing health? That seems insane

42 Comments

AyRe CoNteMpT2 votes

sounds like the best item in the game for all ad champions lol. probably less of an assassin item (except for zed?) than an item for everyone who has good trade potential (renekton for example)

Jbels1 votes

[{quoted}](name=AyRe CoNteMpT,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=L2iNBf7m,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-12-19T20:22:52.405+0000)

sounds like the best item in the game for all ad champions lol. probably less of an assassin item (except for zed?) than an item for everyone who has good trade potential (renekton for example)

Yeah, I'm REALLY not liking the idea of this item on certain champions, Renekton being one of them

AyRe CoNteMpT1 votes

yeah well im not liking most things rito did since presaeson so we will see how this goes.

what i would really really like are items that have very low stats but extremely strong actives or passives or none at all but very high stats to make up for it.

currently all expensive items have some passive or active attached to it that makes it even better/vital, like zhonyas. for example, in dota there is this blink dagger you can buy for alot of money that has zero stats but allows you to flash and there is also this item (or at least there was in dota 1) that gave you just some mana regen but allowed you to refresh all your cooldowns upon use.

im not suggesting exactly these items but i like the idea of having items that give EITHER strong stats OR strong passives/actives and not everything at the same time.

Sightless662 votes

We'd have to redesign the item system drastically to make Dota's item style work. The problem with it is, you can afford to make big-ticket items with extremely powerful actives and no stats because of how many cheap stats you can get from inexpensive items. Cheap items are exponentially more cost-efficient than expensive ones, and they can combine powerful actives/passives with great stats. That allows you to lock very slot-efficient stats or very powerful actives behind high costs. It is also worth nothing that many extremely powerful actives are on items with great stats.

My point with this is, we'd need to literally redo everything about the item system to accommodate those kinds of items. That does have to be kept in mind when we're talking about item design.

AyRe CoNteMpT1 votes

well why would we have to redo everything about the entire system? can just rework all these "same same" items and give them some uniqueness.

also, give items some uniqueness in stats. for example, have an item that gives only AD and maybe a weak passive but it gives a fuckton of ad. say, 150 AD for 3800 gold.

you know, just DIFFERENT stuff. i mean we have thornmail which is a beautiful example because all armor items are exactly the same and just thornmail is different. thats wonderful. why dont we have more thornmail-esque items.

runaans hurricane was pretty cool because it gave the highest attackspeed. also, remember sword of the divine? THAT was the best item they ever created. it was fucking genius.

cmon man, no need to rework the entire game to have better items.

Sightless661 votes

Sword of the divine was arguably the worst item they ever made. It had exactly one purpose. Either you use it to blow someone up before they can possibly react, or it is useless. Having something that is only useful it it enables kills that happen faster than you can react to is terrible design.The cost to the game was not worth what little item diversity it gave to the 2-3 characters that could use it.

The problem with your 150 ad item is that it does not allow for choice. It would turn into a must buy for some champions and they would have no choice but to rush it, while everyone not balanced arpund needing pure ad could not possibly use it. It would actually break diversity, not add to it. You can not make an item with similar gold value that i would want as much as this for heavy ad scalers because it gives the best stat, so you actually remove their choices by adding it.

There is a reason why dota's largest non-divine damage item also has one of the best actives in the game. Dota actually has very few pure stat-stick items, and the few that remain have been getting balanced towards having more of their power in their actives or in the unique utility of their passives.

To make this simple, league is already made up of stat-stick items. You can't add a numerically stronger stat-stick that gives champions exactly the state they need, or you make it a required item. League has to develop towards more actives, and fewer stat sticks. Making a stat-stick that only gives exactly the desired stats in higher amounts actually screws choice. That is why the recent adc rework introduced items with similar stats but different purposes. In league's system, that is much more effective for allowing item diversity.

The reason items would need to be reworked in order for stronger active items to exist is because of how stat reliant all of league's champions are, and how little access to stats you have in low cost items. Having increased gold efficiency in stats at higher costs is a major principle of lol's item design, but it also screws the idea of 9f an item that provides almost no stats. The active would have to be even stronger than a dota active to be good without stats.

Finally, none of this is saying that we can not make better items, but it does means that we can not separate items into stat-sticks (which dota barely uses anymore anyway) and active-only items without redesigning items entirely or making all items that do not fit into that paradigm useless. Items we make have to work within league's design.

AyRe CoNteMpT1 votes

there allready are items that are only being used by a very few champions and that is generally a GOOD thing. we have SO MANY champions that it should be only natural for them to use different items. sword of divine was a wonderful item because it gave you a very big power but at the cost of basically disabling the item afterwards. it gave good attackspeed while off cooldown so if you didnt use it, it was decent. it gave SUPER power while active for 3 seconds and it gave nothing while on cooldown.

even tho it was really powerful, it also had its downsides and you needed to be skilled to use it. it was one of the most wonderfully designed items we ever had in league and it showed perfectly well that you dont need alot of stats for a good active to be viable.

this new assassin blade is the perfect example of boring and retarded itemization. it gives exact standard amounts of stats and the only thing that differenciates it is its passive that only benefits a very few champions. maybe its going to be very good on a couple of champions as fourth, fifth or sixth item but the fewest of few will buy it first or second. i can absolutely see zed, talon and renekton with it and it looks like its an item specifically designed with zed in mind but its a really stupid item because it gives everything you need in raw stats and the passive has absolutely no downside either. its just a GOOD ITEM for some champions and depending on how GOOD it is, everyone or no one will buy it.

sword of the divine was the best item in the game and the worst at the same time. it gave you the biggest power if used correctly but it gave you absolutely nothing if you sucked with it. its a bit similar to zhonyas except that zhonyas gives alot more stats but its currently the strongest item in the game. good zhonyas use decides the outcome of duels, teamfights and entire games but not every champion uses it as one of their core items. thats GOOD. ap champions have pretty good and diverse builds and i like it, especially since there are almost always at least two viable builds for every ap champion. they have strong actives, strong passives, strong stats. alot of good stuff. they have the tear that gives the scaling, they have rod of ages for scaling and different items for different purposes and roles.

AD items and also defensive items barely have this diversity. you see, maybe a 150 ad item would be OP because 150 is too high of a number but why dont we have cost-efficient AD? it should be possible to buy alot of raw stats with decent small passives/actives for champions who only need one or two stats and not all this weird shit.

i would like to take pantheon as an example. he needs exactly 3 stats which are AD, armor pen and cooldown reduction, CDR being the least important one. now except for the jungle item "warriors enchantment" there is not a single item in the game that he would want to buy. every item has wasted stats and stupid passives that he doesnt want.

what we need is more items that give specific powers to whoever wants to use them. like, who uses statikk shiv now? no one. when statikk was so mega strong, who used rapidfire? no one, because you dont really want "more waveclear" as nowadays, most adcs have really good waveclear and the thing you really want is simply more damage or combat utility. both items are the same and everyone will buy the passive that is better even if its just by 1%. its simply better. there are no situational items in your core, especially not for marksman.

but if there are more diverse items, there can be more diverse builds also varying from player to player because the items are so different, you also play with them differently and that promotes individual playstyles.

i will give you an example, and then im done here for today.

shyvana jungle is usually played with devourer botrk. these are the two core shyvana jungle items that basically every single high ranked shyvana player (i checked, every single one in the entire world) builds. EVERYONE. i am the best shyvana player in europe and i used it only for a short time until i discovered that in season 5, titanic hydra second is much much much better than botrk and in season 6 i use trinity force. im the only d+ shyvana player IN THE WORLD to do this, especially the titanic hydra thing, and im not doing it because i like to be cool but i do it because i believe it truly is the better thing to do. its just flat out better for how i see and play the game.

this is what i call diversity. i have options that are really good and i can choose from them depending on how i play. between statikk shiv, rapidfire cannon and runaans hurricane, there is no diversity. you buy whats best. no argument to be made.

Valrun2 votes

I just don't like Renekton.

Sightless663 votes

Seems pretty bad for Renekton. If I start a fight and autoattack someone, I won't do much damage before two seconds passes. The mark will pop while they're still at a pretty high health percentage, it will do a pathetic amount of damage, and then I don't have it against for the next 60 seconds.

You really, really need a large chunk of burst to make sure you're actually getting damage from the passive. If you do damage too slow, then you get very little damage and you lose trading potential for 60 seconds. It just won't work out for bruisers who do damage slowly.

Retillin1 votes

Unless they traded smartly. If you get to half health then get attacked by Rene (as an example). That's where it's strength is. It's the follow up to a good trade. Makes you scared to do any trades once the opponent has this.

Sightless663 votes

The problem I see with that idea is that by the point where you have a major item, you aren't trading like that anymore. I don'the want an item that makes my trading better when they have been at half health for 60 seconds, because they will either back or roam instead of staying in lane for a full minute at half health.

Then, when you leave lane, it immediately loses all that value. It only functions as a burst supplement item out of lane, and bruisers can not do enough damage quickly enough to make it good at that job. This really is a very short-term and easily mitigated purpose you are buying the item for.

If the only thing it does is make me scared of trading after we already had a trade a minute ago, then that is pitiful. I'll get a Cleaver and kill them during that minute instead.

Irelia Bot1 votes

{quoted}

The problem I see with that idea is that by the point where you have a major item, you aren't trading like that anymore. I don'the want an item that makes my trading better when they have been at half health for 60 seconds, because they will either back or roam instead of staying in lane for a full minute at half health.

Then, when you leave lane, it immediately loses all that value. It only functions as a burst supplement item out of lane, and bruisers can not do enough damage quickly enough to make it good at that job. This really is a very short-term and easily mitigated purpose you are buying the item for.

If the only thing it does is make me scared of trading after we already had a trade a minute ago, then that is pitiful. I'll get a Cleaver and kill them during that minute instead.

The idea of the passive is to give a bit more damage to say a burst combo from talon or rengar without making it over the top with no chance to do anything before it goes off.

Sightless661 votes

Exactly. That is precisely the point I am making.

ItsStout5 votes

But renekton could never afford to buy BF sword. Like... this is REALLY an assasin only item.

junglerboy165 votes

only if they make it melee only like hydra or else every ADC in existence just got a free execute for clicking on someone.

Sightless663 votes

Melee only on release confirmed.

junglerboy161 votes

Hallelujah!

ItsStout3 votes

Adc's cant afford to get this.

It has no crit, no AS, and no lifesteal.

Maaaaybe Graves.

Nekusen2 votes

{quoted}

Adc's cant afford to get this.

It has no crit, no AS, and no lifesteal.

Maaaaybe Graves.

they can as a mid-lategame item or adc's not dependent on crits like ezreal and such earlier on.

one nail more in the tank's coffin.

ItsStout2 votes

Tanks.. coffin? Tanks have slowly been getting better...

Also, its physical damage, and with the armor people stack on tanks now...

Its actually not that great vs them, unless they just stack health.

Nekusen1 votes

{quoted}

Tanks.. coffin? Tanks have slowly been getting better...

Also, its physical damage, and with the armor people stack on tanks now...

Its actually not that great vs them, unless they just stack health.

tell that to all these new AD tank buster items.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

they can as a mid-lategame item or adc's not dependent on crits like ezreal and such earlier on.

one nail more in the tank's coffin.

It's not max health damage, it's percent missing hp damage, which means it's basically not purely targeted at tanks, and in fact si sort of weaker against tanks (cause you need to deal a lot of damage through resists to achieve a similar effect).

SouL1ess1 votes

one nail more in the tank's coffin.

Keep in mind that they HAVE to deal a substantial amount of damage in two seconds or the execute damage is going to be wasted.

Let's say an ADC deal about 25% of the tank's health in two seconds, which I think is realistic when assuming same item levels for each. That turns into a 5% max health damage over 2 seconds that has a 60 second CD, which is not really strong for the ADC class.

junglerboy163 votes

I mean, ADCs buy Youmuu's, why not buy an item that will literally execute the champion you attacked just for attacking them?

If you're gonna argue that Youmuu's has AS because of the active, then I'd argue that 25% missing health as free physical damage is at least as strong as a bit of AS and MS.

It's a good thing it's melee only.

Nekusen2 votes

Do ADs really need yet another movement speed item?

WTFMatee4 votes

Do ads really need another item? Fixed

TurquoiseYoshi1 votes

To be fair, Riot is doing a mage rework at some point, alike to the juggernaut and marksman reworks.

Irelia Bot2 votes

{quoted}

Do ADs really need yet another movement speed item?

AD champs who do not build for crit chance really need movement speed options to keep up with the 10% mages get on an item they basically have as core.

Nekusen1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=L2iNBf7m,comment-id=00030001,timestamp=2015-12-20T00:04:15.305+0000)

AD champs who do not build for crit chance really need movement speed options to keep up with the 10% mages get on an item they basically have as core.

most mages don't get much from luden's passive, it's not a core item in any way.

item 3071 item 3142item 3153 (and arguably item 3139) which are themselves useful for every AD, then you have 5 more items if you feel like getting a little crit chance. (item 3078 item 3087 item 3085 item 3094 item 3046 )

Nekusen2 votes

I agree that AD already has 20 different ways of doing what they want, they have more options which mages should also get. But COME ON, they have so many movement speed items, they'll be impossible to catch.

APrinnyDood2 votes

Meh. You'll be able to use it on a few assassins and everyone else will waste the passive because they don't get their damage out quick enough. Getting no damage off of the proc is really, really easy. It seems fine.

ModKnightsKemplar2 votes

I think it'll get lowered. I imagine 10-15% would be good for assassins, without being ridiculously op for others.

Spoofghoul2 votes

73 flat arpen incoming

commit an hero1 votes

In b4 it's not melee only.

Woodakoodashooda1 votes

Now everyone can be Garen

Keevalroy1 votes

An AD DFG for the exact reason the original DFG got removed.

Mkay Riot. I see where you're going with this. It makes zero fucking sense and you're a bunch of blind hypocrites for approving its creation but I see where you're going with this.

Lintu Puck1 votes

it's just a current baseline. When they finally come up with and program something the numbers will probably be different.

Gigahappytown1 votes

Nice circlejerking

but the passive on this is garbage

the stats are really nice though.

Also

Tanks and mages are the top champs right now

talon is the only viable assassin

seconadly this will be garbage on adcs as only 1 of them can actually burst and its completely useless against tanks

and adcs do not want to go out of their way to attack squishy targets

This item is a joke in comparison to death fire grasp.

also if you aa someone you HAVE to commit or you waste the passive for 60 seconds.

smite has the exact same thing but for ap champs and its a perfectly balanced item on everyone.

Dirty Roleplayer1 votes

Seems like it's only good for Zed. Riven already has execute. And nightfall synergyses better with Zed ult.

Nekusen1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dirty Roleplayer,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=L2iNBf7m,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2015-12-20T15:51:38.594+0000)

Seems like it's only good for Zed. Riven already has execute. And nightfall synergyses better with Zed ult.

exactly what we needed, zed buffs...

GrandpaInDisguis1 votes

I think whoever buys the item should take increased damage while the nightfall thing is active. Maybe lose some of the stats while passive is down? (Decreased AD or no bonus movespeed?)

PH03NIX1 votes

when the fuck is this item actually being released its been like two months since they said it exists..,..

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