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Why do people and Riot keep describing Zed as mechanically complex?

SaltyToplaneGoat··58 votes·2,751 views

Sure, back then in season 2/3 when he was released he might have been the new rad shit. Skillshots from another position? OH MY GOD HOW INNOVATIVE. (Not like the concept was anything new, Lulu could already do that. )

And then you have the shadow mobility, which is nothing too special either.

By current standarts I view Zed as a really, really simple champion actually. There is not much you need to know about him, most of his abilities are self-explaining. Now compare that to our newest champ, who has a LOT more to work with mechanically.

Especially when I look at the releases of the last year (Tal, Jhin, Illaoi, Sol, etc.) it appears to me that the bar for has been rised quite a bit in terms of what is actually "mechanically complex". Zed is not exactly a high mechanics champion - his pick/ban rate in Bronze 5 speaks volumes for that. Sure, you can optimize the few mechanics he has, but he doesn't have much to work with in the first place.

57 Comments

Automatis18 votes

What do you mean? There's a ton of skill involved in managing Zed's resour- oh wait

And only the most skilled of Zed players can deal with heavy push cha- oh damn

At least his damage combo is hard to la- oh, well I got nothing.

Papa Slothy15 votes

he has a low skill floor and high skill cap

so you're both wrong and right

Stars Shaper14 votes

It surely isn't the easiest (Talon is a lot more straightforward).

But compared to Azir, Yasuo and Aurelion Sol Zed is far easier and far safer.

Darkslayer8514 votes

Azir is a safe champion, but not easy at all.

Yasuo is a VERY SAFE champion with no skill, however he needs very fast reaction time and needs to plan his E so he has places to dash after closing a gap.

Bhagswag2 votes

Tbh, in my opinion, i find Azir easier than Zed. I am just horrible with Zed. But I still know that Zed is a little too strong. With Azir I can do some cool stuff. With Zed, I'm just a Bronze 78.

Troll for Trump3 votes

Jesus stop saying Talon is so easy, it's really hard to stay alive against a competent opposing mid laner. He has no reliable escape either, making him much more riskier.

Yas has a kit geared for his safety much like Zed, and just spams his QE 24/7; He outplays himself.

Wimbledofy3 votes

Talon is EXTREMELY easy. But it's because of this easiness that makes him so hard. As a Talon the only mechanical thing you need to know is how to use Q as an auto attack reset. Other than that his abilities are very simple to hit. What makes talon hard though is know when to go in and how to go in. Playing talon is mainly about playing around your opponents strengths and weaknesses and finding the perfect opportunity to go in.

Troll for Trump3 votes

Then that means Draven is easy then? The only thing you need to know is how to walk around to circles to catch axes, all you do is AA the target.

Alistar is extremely easy. All you need to do is WQ, which has been made easier by Riot

Blitzcrank is extremely easy. All you need is to land one skillshot.

KogMaw is extremely easy. Press W and fire away

Vayne is extremely easy, just R Q E and fire away.

Yeah, everything can be "extremely easy"

Wimbledofy1 votes

did you not understand what i said at all?

Troll for Trump1 votes

That was uh. Sarcasm.

Wiz the Great1 votes

Blitzcrank Alistar KogMaw Are in fact super easy, especially alistar.You literally can't be serious if you think alistar is hard LOL

Troll for Trump1 votes

Aight, Mr. ADC and Yasuo main. It was also used as sarcasm; You can make every champion sound easy by oversimplifying their kit. All champs are hard.

I also see you've been trying to boost lower elos using the dyna Q system.... 45% WR in plat, with 19 out of 20 games being played with a premade buddy... Silver 5 and gold 5...

Stars Shaper1 votes

That's why I said "straightforward" xD I know myself that he isn't easy.

Wimbledofy3 votes

Yasuo has very small mechanical skill in that most of his abilities are straight forward. His E is point and click, his Q is an instant skill shot, his R is point and click if someone already knocked up. I'm not saying yasuo is easier than zed but Zed has more mechanical skill involved. The only thing though about zed right now is that you don't need much mechanical skill to have good success with him now.

MunchCrunchLunch9 votes

ult people and do as much damage as possible before the mark detonates. I don't think hes that complex

Astôlfo6 votes

I'd warily say he has a potentially high skill ceilijg (aka, Faker for example) because of the nature of his kit. Unfortunately, he has almost no skill floor of any height. Thus, people just mash keys randomly and go "LOLOLOLOL OUTPLAYED!1!!!1!1!l

Joe Mana6 votes

[deleted]

I was Lupxel2 votes

-not ability, you mean mobility

Only Play Darius4 votes

You play him then.

ZeeWolfZ4 votes

W, Q, W, Q. Literally the first 12 minutes of the game.

The rest is R, Q, E, Penta Kill.

YCitizenSnipsY3 votes

None of the champions you named are mechanical intensive in the slightest, in fact most were praised for how simple they were.

Wimbledofy1 votes

I haven't really played illaoi but she sorta seems like she would be hard to play. Jhin's skill requirements are very similar to every other adc so it depends on how much mechanical skill you would think of any adc needs. Aurelion has a very easy to land stun and ult but his gameplay knowledge and positioning are probably higher. Taliyahs mechanical skill is very basic except maybe her W. So yeah I'd agree for the most part that none of these champs require more mechanical skill than zed. Surprised he didn't mention Azir.

VentusDragoon3 votes

I think it's more like how "different" champs are to play even though the abilities themselves might be fairly simple. Yes, Zed does require a bit of thought to play, but as he is right now, there's no reason to try to set up the Triple Shuriken or Triple spin attack or anything as just mashing everything after popping ult will almost always guarantee a kill. Unlike Syndra pre-rework where you had to plan 20 seconds ahead and have exceedingly good micromanaging tools to get your full burst out, of which was mostly required to take down your tankier enemies.

As for the rest, Illaoi's pretty straightforward, considering how much damage she does. You just kinda get the healing as you go along. Jhin's hard as an ADC for a similar reason to Varus-- you have to play him completely differently. Varus you have to actually play as a sniper and mind your positioning far more than Tristana/Graves/Ezreal/Lucian/Kalista/etc. He has 1 way to get out of danger and that can be dodged. Jhin you have to play in a similar way, but you have to set up your fights ahead of time instead of just bum rushing any time you see your blitz get a hook on an enemy. Aurelion's kit is simple but NO mid laner plays like him to the point it's almost jarring trying to get into him.

Taliyah's not too hard, just minding your location, really.

LankPants3 votes

Often the simplest champs are the ones who take the most skill to play. It takes skill to overcome the weaknesses in a champ's kit. For example you need excellent positioning and kitting skill to play Ashe, just because she's a simple champ that doesn't mean that she's easy to play. In the same vain Ezreal has a far more complex kit but is overall far easier to play since he's so much more forgiving.

Zed is a complex champion, but he doesn't need to utilise that complexity to kill people. All he needs to do currently is R someone and unleash a rotation of spells. It doesn't really matter if you hit 3 Qs or 1 in most cases, either is enough to burst through a squishy.

Competitively someone like Jhin takes a lot of skill to play because he requires a completely different approach to other champs, especially in his resource management. You can't just pick up Jhin and do well in your first game, even skilled ADC players will often struggle when picking up Jhin. Zed's quite easy to pick up if you play assassins already. His playstyle is the exact same as other assassins and his combo is completely intuitive.

CeexSett1 votes

False. I went 23/4 in my first time Jhin ^^

(Just kidding i agree with you please don't send the downvote crew)

YCitizenSnipsY1 votes

But this conversation is about Mechanical difficulty, not what ever you can pull out of your ass to make other champions seem complex. Go look at every one of those champion releases, constant praise for how simple they are. And non of them are more mechanically complex than Zed.

RIP Resonance2 votes

Learn to play against him. Stop bitching about Zed being broken when he isn't. He's not fun to play against, yes.

Stars Shaper47 votes

He is talking about him being not hard to play. L2Read

-1

SaltyToplaneGoat21 votes

I have no problems with Zed. Lissandra players are immune against that ^^

But I see, the instinctive apologists are as bitey as ever ^^

ZeeWolfZ3 votes

PREACH SILVER 5!

RIP Resonance7 votes

Wow. You're Plat 3. I must not even play this game because I'm a low elo player. Let me just eat your ass while I tell you how broken Zed is. Your Elo penis is huge. What a good player.

BetaDude406 votes

[{quoted}](name=RIP Resonance,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=L2WRWzeG,comment-id=000200030000,timestamp=2016-05-22T08:40:52.484+0000)

Let me just eat your ass

... I'll just, uh, stand over here then... While you do that...

warpenguin5552 votes

He actually is mechanically complex. Problem is you dont need to learn alot of them to be sucessful on him. Riot tried to make him the hardest assassin yet but literally made most of the mechanics optional and left him as another faceroll assassin

TheRaisin123452 votes

If you look at a really good zed player, you can easily tell the difference between him and a bronze player. Zed's kit inst complex, since you can easily pick him up and do well for the most part, but it has a lot of depth, making some really cool outplays.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaMOIdvlHQY

WitchQueen Annie1 votes

Cause landing his skill to result in a kill without dying in the process and without the use of your Ult is hard as hell?

SaltyToplaneGoat10 votes

Uhh a single line skillshot. That can be shot from a proxy position. And a direct melee move.

I'm not sure if that falls into the "hard as hell" category. It basicially requires the same amount of basic skill everyone playing squishy melee assassins needs. Sure, it's harder than just right-clikcing them to death, but not much.

Astôlfo3 votes

Please tell me you're trolling. I can't bear to believe someone is actually this stupid.

WitchQueen Annie2 votes

{quoted}

Please tell me you're trolling. I can't bear to believe someone is actually this stupid.

If you Ult into an enemy you will just get CCed and killed. There's a huge X and a delay.

Either that or you try to juke around with Qs and shadows (which are hard to land on moving targets and even when they land, probably won't kill)... you still have to move in for the kill and that's usually when you get CCed and killed.

See unlike with a Lux or an Ahri you can't just blast at them from a distance; hence the challenge

Also, if you miss a Q, you're done...

Astôlfo3 votes

Mhm, sure, whatever you say. For the first, either don't do that or target a squishy, R-E-Q-some autos, W out or R blink back depending, GGEZ done. Uh, not like it's a fast moving projectile that goes through units and has a clone also helping. But sure, whatever you say. So difficult!!1!!1! Um, let's just pretend his W doesn't exist. Or his Q. Then that sentence might make more sense. Except, they do, so it doesn't. It's hard to miss a Q if you're even half-way intelligent, and "OH NO I MISSED". Sure, maybe. Too bad it only costs Energy which literally replenishes enough for another Q by the time the CD ends. But sure, sooooo "done".

What a complete failure. Dismissed.

IntakiNine1 votes

If Zed is so easy to play, why can't everyone play him like Bjergsen?

QjTHqo3RTq6 votes

If Shaco is easy to play, why can't you play like Pink Ward?

Handin Out Naps1 votes

Who said Shaco was easy to play though, I think its a known fact that he is a pretty hard champion to do well with.

QjTHqo3RTq2 votes

To do well with yes, but can someone easily grasp his kit in the matter of like 30 seconds? Yes. He has an incredibly low skill floor, but also a high skill cap. The same applies to zed, who has an extremely easy kit to grasp and use, just with high skill cap potential. Hence the example

Guy Fox Teemo1 votes

Taliyah isn't hard at all, incredibly simple to play, only thing thats hard is her W but thats due to the fact thats its insanely clunkly to use.

Mechanically difficult means to pull off great out plays its difficult, needing to place the shadow in the right place at teh right time to dodge a skill land of your q's and double slow etc, and switching between them at the right time.

Also just because a champion is picked a lot doesn't mean anything lol.

Sahn Uzal1 votes

Zed would require you to be a good player and have some dank mechanics, but he is so stupidly broken he just kills you with R E AA. Outplaying is just for style points, you don't need it to get the job done.

Sire Hippington1 votes

There are two things to consider: skill floor or skill requierment and skill ceiling or skill cap. The formar discribes how hard a champ is to pick up, so how hard it is to do well on him. The latter is how hard a champ is to master, so how hard it is to unlock truely the full potential.

Just like LB or Lee, Zed doesn't have a very high skill-floor as the basic mechanics are easy to grasp and the kit has enough safety mechancis to get you out after a missplay, but unlocking full faker mode is an entierly different thing. Keeping track of what happens around all 3 shadows and switching around properly while aiming shurikens to get double or tripple hits on more than one opponent has a huge skill requirement compared to the press R->pointblak single shuriken with a random second one+e+aa. What gives the low skill impresion is that the usuall ult+faceroll more often than not is enough to succede. Also, while his energie isn't that limmiting in lane, especially compared to mana, it is something he has to be carefull with in all out fights, just like any other energie user. Energie IS NOT resourceless.

And the new champs ypou listed are mechanically just as simple, especially jhin and illaoi.

Nøble1 votes

The whole "how much skill does a champion take" discussion is pretty meaningless. Learning how to play your champion is such a small fraction of what you need to learn in league to be good, that trying to define your skill level by saying "I play X champion and they are hard to play" is just stupid. Champions are the easy part of league. Sure some of them are slightly less easy.

Icestar11861 votes

The problem is the two definitions of mechanics - one is "the inherent options in a champion's kit" and the other is things like CS, landing abilities, and trading advantageously.

You seem to be using the first definition, but Zed is mechanics-intensive based on the second definition: reaction times, keeping track of shadows, etc. This is similar to champions like Riven or Aurelion Sol - they do damage regardless, but they can do a lot more if you know and can pull off ideal play. (for example, knowing how to weave autos into Riven's combo, or positioning well with Sol so you can do damage but not get caught out). Strategically, Zed is like any other assassin - know when to go in and know how to get out. You'll be doing the same thing, but getting the most out of it requires a high degree of skill.

PiVoRx1 votes

Riot in general has very wierd concept how mechanical skill looks alike, for me, someone who played starcraft broodwar in iccup B rank i found Zed mechanical skill laughable.

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