Boards›Gameplay

i might get hate for this, but i think skirmishers and divers step way too much on juggernauts toes

Critmaster Garen··59 votes·16,735 views

either champions like Irelia Jax Camille synergize too well with items like item 3053 and item 3748 or juggers dont synergize well enough with them compared to the other fighter types.

skirmishers and divers should work off squishier builds and have item 3074 as their core item and not titanic.

if they get too close to juggers in tankyness and damage, theyre invalidating the class because they basically become more versatile versions of them.

currently their builds include a lot of jugger items paired with item 3078

an Irelia has almost the same item build as Yorick these days, because the difference in effectiveness of the same items on those champions isnt large enough. this brings them very close to each other in terms of raw melee power, while irelia has the better outplay tools and target access.

maybe something can be done to make ravenous hydra more attractive to divers and skirmishers so they gravitate more towards the item.

also not a fan of Yasuo picking up items like item 3053 or item 3022 after his 2 crit core items. a lot of this is probably also a really shitty side effect of turning steraks ad into a bonus ad increase.

they never should have made that change, and instead balanced trigage by decoupling sheen procs from base ad instead.

the entire reason steraks gage was added to the game is, because juggers dont have the same mobility and outplay tools as their more mobile cousins to survive diving into the enemy team. a lot of champions who are buying steraks gage probably shouldnt be able to do it as easily, because they should rely more on their kit inbuilt utility and outplay tools and not get the same safety net that juggers need to even function.

champions like Darius need steraks to survive abilities like MissFortune ult because theyre incapable of dodging it or reliably interrupting her. when an mf or velkoz or other champion opens up on a jugger, by the time you walked out of their ult or walked up to them to interrupt them you already ate almost the entire damage of the ability.

a Yasuo on the other hand has windwall for that purpose and shouldnt get access to steraks on top of it.

the same for Jax Camille or Irelia who already have abilities to react to it.

94 Comments

Tahminatrix 31 votes

Maybe when riot finally adds tank/jugger items that scale less linearly with eachother and your own stats, like item 3110 giving a small % armor based on your total armor.

One of the biggest distinctions between fighters and juggernauts is their base stats and even then those lines blur as they buy items and then fighters/divers are just juggernauts with mobility.

Having defensive items that scale more with your base stats and the rest of your build could keep those lines unblurred, which is why we need more items with % values rather than just a rune that activates 10 minutes into the game.

They could even nerf the flat stats you get from defensive items and add % values to a lot of them. Its literally the easiest way to stop squishy champs from abusing tank items yet RIOT NEVER TRIES IT even though they claim to be afraid of making tank items that squishy champs can abuse.

Critmaster Garen11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Super Cow Swag,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Kymsq3qN,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-12-28T18:44:29.399+0000)

Maybe when riot finally adds tank/jugger items that scale less linearly with eachother and your own stats, like item 3110 giving a small % armor based on your total armor.

One of the biggest distinctions between fighters and juggernauts is their base stats and even then those lines blur as they buy items and then fighters/divers are just juggernauts with mobility.

Having defensive items that scale more with your base stats and the rest of your build could keep those lines unblurred, which is why we need more items with % values rather than just a rune that activates 10 minutes into the game.

They could even nerf the flat stats you get from defensive items and add % values to a lot of them. Its literally the easiest way to stop squishy champs from abusing tank items yet RIOT NEVER TRIES IT even though they claim to be afraid of making tank items that squishy champs can abuse.

id prefer if they would decouple item 3057 from base ad.

this would allow riot to actually add more items into the game that increase champion base ad.

then they should make juggers mainly scale with total ad values, and divers, skirmishers and sion with mostly bonus ad values.

this would automatically make jugger items a lot more efficient on juggers than other types for fighters or assassins, because they wouldnt get as much out of the damage increases on those items.

they could also nerf item 3053 ad value by 50%, push more power into the shield and health of the item, and increase the base ad/lvl scaling of individual juggernauts directly.

Tomoe Gozen2 votes

Divers are, in my opinion, a class that needs to be defined more than just "go in" champs. That's what assassins do. They go in, kill a target and try to get out. Divers are what exactly?

"Tanks" that initiate? Tankier assassins that dive, kill and attempt to get out? Mobile versions of juggernauts that do more damage but are less tanky? Tamer versions of skirmishers?

Blackfin977 votes

Played Darius for a couple of weeks. Now I only play him if Jax gets banned.

There is absolutely no reason to play a juggernaut who gets kited easily when you can play someone like Jax, Irelia, and Yasuo who have no class weakness and can go 1v9 without having to worry about being kited by archers or being one shot by assassins. These skirmishers are the jack of all trades, do the job of a juggernaut just as efficiently, and often have far better dps while having just as good sustain as them.

MorgManBasher5 votes

Most juggernauts are garbage, sadly. They don't even beat the divers in 1 v 1 even though they should.

Yorick vs Irelia should favor Yorick because he's a juggernaut and they are suppose to be immobile monsters but it insanely heavily favors Irelia

Sewer Side4 votes

Juggernauts are a failed class and you may as well call them bruisers or skirmishers like the rest.

Critmaster Garen16 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sewer Side,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Kymsq3qN,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-12-28T19:42:10.139+0000)

Juggernauts are a failed class and you may as well call them bruisers or skirmishers like the rest.

but they arent skirmishers.

skirmishers are highly mobile, and have the ability to weave in and out of combat. juggernauts arent.

they arent a failed class, if theyd be supported properly with items like item 3005 and other classes wouldnt be able to use their items to better effect.

the original % base ad increase on steraks gage was a great idea to separate jugger itemization from the itemization of other fighters. the problem was that trigage abuse was balanced from the wrong end. they should have changed sheen, and not steraks. changing steraks to bonus ad increase made the item very attractive to skirmishers and divers.

also, item 3074 should maybe get some interaction with dashes and other form of mobility to make it more attractive for divers and skirmishers over titanic.

for example instead of lifesteal, it could grant a small bonus ad scaling shield (~up to 80 hp) every time youre using a dash, leap, blink or teleport. this way skirmishers might be incentivized to use ravenous hydra over titanic.

feintfiend3 votes

Reminder that the Yorick nerfs desperately need to be reverted.

deadlychuck3 votes

This is actually a serious problem with how riot balanced and designed AD

You see a lot of "toe stepping" across all classes that primarily use AD for their damage when it comes to itemization and it creates an arms race effect, with the overlap constantly causing all AD classes to be buffed when anything in the AD design gets buffed (including armor).

( "->" = "Step on X toes")

Skirmishers/Bruisers -> Juggernauts -> Assassins -> Marksmen -> Skirmishers/Bruisers

Tanks face similar issues as juggernauts with bruisers/skirmishers generally stepping on their toes through armor itemization. Really the only couple of solutions to this is to add another primary stat to break this chain or just start converting some of the bruisers & juggernauts back to hybrid and/or AP scaling.

Irelia Bot3 votes

It is almost like fighters only have item 3078, item 3071, item 3053/item 3156 , item 3074, item 3025 and item 3748

And it was juggernauts who started using the formerly mostly used by divers item item 3078 while dropping item 3071 and item 3025 not the other way around.

Juggernauts need to stop stepping on the toes of divers.

In all honestly though I don't get why all items that build from item 3052 don't add % base AD as bonus AD instead of a flat ammount.

In the end though people tend to build what works the best and clearly item 3748 works better than item 3074.

For refference as to how this is not uncommon in other games take age of Empires 2 where If you are doing a melee rush it is usually better to get the armor upgrade before the damage upgrade since you will more than likely be getting hit before even reaching the target if they are ranged.

Since melee generally have to get in close to deal most of their damage having a higher chance of surviving while at a distance is usually the better option.

Yes I know they did some changes to push Fiora towards ravonus from titanic. But until they are nerfing Trinity most divers are better off taking titanic as a third of 4th item as they will usually have enough damage from other items by that point.

ANd yes this does include a potential item 3812 on some builds which is kinda an anyone AD item who doesn't only auto attack option.

Moody P2 votes

Juggernauts are physically incapable of stepping on the toes of divers.

Irelia Bot3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Kymsq3qN,comment-id=000b0000,timestamp=2018-12-29T12:19:06.781+0000)

Juggernauts are physically incapable of stepping on the toes of divers.

Silly juggernaut hashinshin

Moody P1 votes

not an argument

Irelia Bot2 votes

Neither is yours.

Moody P1 votes

yeah but mine is right and yours is wrong

check and mate

Götterdämmerung1 votes

No it is not. What are you talking about???

Moody P1 votes

There has never been a time when a juggernaut "stepped on the toes of" a diver. Its literally impossible for them to replace a diver or compete with them in their niche

The opposite is not true bar the specific functions some like Illaoi and Trundle fill into.

Hexs Fortune3 votes

Divers/ Skirmishers like Irelia Camille Jax are not noticeably less durable than juggernauts, often match or surpass them in damage and enjoy the outplay potential, versatility and options that high mobility affords.

SilentBomber2 votes

If we want fighters to have less tankiness,that would be the same Juggers having less damage than fighters no?

Critmaster Garen5 votes

{quoted}

If we want fighters to have less tankiness,that would be the same Juggers having less damage than fighters no?

no. juggers are fighters.

the difference between divers and skirmishers to juggernauts is, that juggernauts dont have the same mobility and utility and trade this for raw melee power and defense.

infact, juggers should deal slightly more damage than divers, and about the same as skirmishers.

King Livid2 votes

Riot won't do this, but the easiest and arguably best change would be to just make juggernaut exclusive items.

item 3005 item 3748 item 3053 item 3025 item 3022 are juggernaut items, and should be locked off as such.

Riot needs to embrace class subclasses, and make item changes accordingly.

GinoSoldier1 votes

{quoted}

Riot won't do this, but the easiest and arguably best change would be to just make juggernaut exclusive items.

item 3005 item 3748 item 3053 item 3025 item 3022 are juggernaut items, and should be locked off as such.

Riot needs to embrace class subclasses, and make item changes accordingly.

Iceborn Gauntlet is a must-have item on basically half the tanks in the game. Not just Juggernauts.

He4rtkiller2 votes

What a great post! I really hope Riot knows how to appreciate a well written post like this that criticizes the game while not being offensive to anyone. I want to encourage Rioters to respond to posts like this and use them to start a conversation. I also want to encourage boards community to use this post as an example of how to respectfully criticize the game. We need more posts like this.

I agree with op. Champs that have high mobility and high damage shouldn't be as tanky as they are now. They should survive by correctly using their skills and not by buying multiple tanky items.

Leaf on Bush1 votes

They should survive by correctly using their skills and not by buying multiple tanky items.

Anyone can buy tank items.

But you don't deal

high damage

So what are you trying to say and why are you talking so slimey? That's really creepy.

EbonyBladeJ882 votes

How did I not see this post yesterday?

You hit the nail right on the head.

Although, I've read some of your comments, and that one where you mentioned that Garen mains have moved on from item 3071 to item 3078 , I must have missed the memo. I still use item 3071 and find relative success with it. Of course, you could have simply been saying that more have been using item 3078 rather than item 3071 because of the way the meta has gone. If that's what you meant, I fully get it.

Poske2 votes

Pretty much every juggernaut needs a rework

Garen (I do realise you have garen in your name) is so fking boring only few people can stomach playing him Funny thing is Riot used an excuse GAREN IS A NOOB Friendly champion so we cant change him to much YET he is still at their rework list after rework

Darius by the time he spins the second time he dies unless he has supports behind him which gives stats He needs to be more tanky but deal less damage

Illaoi is jsut r%%%%%ed design. Can force you to back with a single E yet cant carry anythign

Mordekaiser is abomination of bad design

** The whole class cant force anything you are pretty much reliant on enemy team to be r%%%%%ed**

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

Pretty much every juggernaut needs a rework

Garen (I do realise you have garen in your name) is so fking boring only few people can stomach playing him Funny thing is Riot used an excuse GAREN IS A NOOB Friendly champion so we cant change him to much YET he is still at their rework list after rework

Darius by the time he spins the second time he dies unless he has supports behind him which gives stats He needs to be more tanky but deal less damage

Illaoi is jsut r%%%%%ed design. Can force you to back with a single E yet cant carry anythign

Mordekaiser is abomination of bad design

** The whole class cant force anything you are pretty much reliant on enemy team to be r%%%%%ed**

while i play the other champions from time to time, i can only really talk about garen. he feels like hes 90% there to a consistent and well working kit for a juggernaut. its just that some of its elements are wonky and shitty to use.

it feels like garen doesnt have enough agency over his own kit.

his q animation is slow garbage. i cant count the time where trying to use my q as a damage tool held me back more than it helped me, because at the mmr im playing people react fast enough to reliably use reactive abilities during your q animation every single time.

Riven e for example is on almost the same cooldown as garens q, and a halfway decent riven will cast her e during your q animation to absorb the damage and dash away from you every single time, which means you literally can not make a play on that champion even if you get close to her. you have no agency in fights and only rely on your opponent to make a mistake.

the way his passive is designed leaves him lacking a sustain mechanic in combat. combined with his cooldown windows, this forces him into a weird hit and run playstile that hes not really good at, because hes simply too slow and too easy to lock down (despite the tools he has available). once youre in a fight with garen, yorue in, and its extremely hard to disengage.

and villainy while in concept allowing him to be an actual carry is not in his control at all. he just has to pray it hits the right target. want to split push, but your opposing laner isnt the villain? fat luck, you lose against almost every fighter who doesnt have the mark. want to teamfight, but the mark is on the enemy tryndamere in the side lane, who you cant chase down? outskilled by your own kit.

i think those are the aspects that need work in his kit. ive been begging riot to make the animation speed of his q scale with his base attack speed, so it becomes more usable midgame and lategame.

the ideal passive for garen is sadly already on another champion, which would be Volibear it would give him a safety net against poke during the lane phase and help him through extended skirmishes and fights without the requirement to leave combat.

his villainy needs some sort of mechanics change to give him some actual level of control over the ability.

Poske1 votes

Garen main issue is that the only time he functions is when he has flash UP If a champion can only function when his flash is up his design is garbage

Garen has never been high elo viable for 8 seasons. That is just sad

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

Garen main issue is that the only time he functions is when he has flash UP If a champion can only function when his flash is up his design is garbage

Garen has never been high elo viable for 8 seasons. That is just sad

well, actually he was viable during the entire versus event. but that was mostly because teamcomps were heavily made up of assassins into the highest mmr ranges.

it was champions like Pyke pre ult buff in support almost every game, Khazix jungle and lethality assassins mid lane. sadly riot chose to nerf his q instead of just waiting it out until the meta changes again.

i dont think individual champions should ever be nerfed around a meta.

its just like back when Malphite and Rammus got nerfed during marksmen metas when teams were often running 2 marksmen (mid or jungle, and bot). instead of dealing with the problem, which was overtuned marksmen, riot nerfed their counters who thrived in the same meta.

chipndip11 votes

The real issue is that Riot's only recently found winning designs for juggernauts that actually fit and make sense in a world where no one can be a damage carry except for marksmen, outside of off-brand tanks like Trundle and Mundo. Why draft Darius or Illaoi when your bot lane's ALWAYS a marksman, so you're ALWAYS redundant? Urgot and Aatrox provide something new to what we can expect a jug to do, and that new thing fits snugly in a world where marksmen are the super stars of the game and not them. Has nothing to do with divers or skirmishers.

Also, skirmishers as a champ class are kind of hogwash. If anything, new divers like Cam and Irelia are stepping on the toes of skirmishers like Fiora and Yasuo.

Abibyama II1 votes

So basically give them short/medium ranged spells to deal with marksmen and it's Gucci?

D357R0Y3R2 votes

Not at all, the reason Urgot and Aatrox are strong is because their damage are r%%%%%ed when it comes to dealing damage to squishy champions

Darius had almost all his damage soaked up into "anti tank power" with passive becoming physical damage (applying black cleaver) E armor pen that got buffed so hard and his ult true damage his Q during his rework got its damage halved

Did you see Aatrox Q damage? Watch Nemesis or Magicfelix playing them, they legit are able to 100-0 an entire team (Perkz did it during world too)

Darius can't do that, same for like Nasus

everytime Riot buffs juggernauts, they make them dealing more damage to tanks which is irrelevant because they need more damage in general, an immobile champion like Darius should not take 5 sec to kill a squishy it's awful

Abibyama II1 votes

Fair enough.

Though buffing Immobile juggernauts damage to squishes wouldn't do very much wouldn't it? Because their issue is getting to those ranged champions is too hard. Which why aatrox and urgot are good because they use their range instead of just running to them

Plus their itemization sucks and not supported very well compared to divers and skirmishers

D357R0Y3R6 votes

You know who else has issues getting to ranged champions?

Fucking Mordekaiser Yet people are able to play him in challenger and high elo

why? because it doesn't matter if he has troubles getting to them ONCE HE GETS TO THEM THEYRE DEAD 100% DEAD

Darius? If he happens to somehow get into a squishy range, he will tickle them until he gets noxian might

anti tank power is irrelevant, they need power in general

Critmaster Garen6 votes

{quoted}

You know who else has issues getting to ranged champions?

Fucking Mordekaiser Yet people are able to play him in challenger and high elo

why? because it doesn't matter if he has troubles getting to them ONCE HE GETS TO THEM THEYRE DEAD 100% DEAD

Darius? If he happens to somehow get into a squishy range, he will tickle them until he gets noxian might

anti tank power is irrelevant, they need power in general

thats because morde deals a shitload of burst.

the same reason why we garen mains switched to item 3078 so we can stay relevant by flash + q + ingite + ulting squishy villains.

juggernauts as a sustained damage threat are dead. thats the real problem. we need item 3005 in the game, so we can be sustained damage threats while building balls to the wall tanky in this meta, and actually survive our own win condition (getting into the middle of the enemy team).

the problem just becomes again, how do you make atmas good on juggernauts without making it great on Jax Irelia Camille etc.?

i think the answer is in base ad increases instead of gaining bonus ad from items, and a rework to sheen.

1.) make skirmishers and divers abilities mostly focused around bonus ad scalings 2.) make juggernauts abilities focused around total ad scalings 3.) make juggernaut items scale off base ad and increase base ad by flat values or %

D357R0Y3R1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Kymsq3qN,comment-id=000300000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-28T23:24:20.785+0000)

juggernauts as a sustained damage threat are dead.

Mordekaiser is still a huge DPS threat idk what you're on about Garen isn't because he's bad

Darius is still a DPS threat

the problem is that squishies being in range of juggernauts should be a death sentence, just like how an adc being in range of aatrox will get half of his hp removed by lethality aatrox under a second. But an adc can happen to be in front of Darius for like 3 sec and dance around him before Darius happens to be relevant (unless Darius already had noxian might)

if Riot keeps pushing more power into armor shred, armor pen, and true damage juggernauts are doomed to be shit

Critmaster Garen3 votes

{quoted}

Mordekaiser is still a huge DPS threat idk what you're on about Garen isn't because he's bad

Darius is still a DPS threat

the problem is that squishies being in range of juggernauts should be a death sentence, just like how an adc being in range of aatrox will get half of his hp removed by lethality aatrox under a second. But an adc can happen to be in front of Darius for like 3 sec and dance around him before Darius happens to be relevant (unless Darius already had noxian might)

if Riot keeps pushing more power into armor shred, armor pen, and true damage juggernauts are doomed to be shit

mordes most common power plays are charge up the third hit on his q, flash on his opponent to hit him with q, w, e, r, ignite at the same time and burst him down.

garen shouldnt be as bad as he is when you think about it. he has probably some of the best tools to deal with juggernaut kiting of the enitre class.

only ulting olaf, shyvana and udyr are either faster or better at avoiding kiting.

the problem is, that his spin deals shit for damage against squishies (and fighters), and its more worthwile to specialize into bursty flash q plays with item 3142 item 3078

even Aatrox just suddenly bursts the shit out of his opponent. he doesnt even itemize into health really and just builds lethality.

and Darius itemizes into triforce aswell partially for the sheen burst on his w.

none of the juggernauts that are relevant actually carry by dealing sustained damage. they just flash on squishies with item builds to burst before they can react, like some sort of shittier assassin.

DragonShea1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Kymsq3qN,comment-id=000300000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-28T23:24:20.785+0000)

thats because morde deals a shitload of burst.

the same reason why we garen mains switched to item 3078 so we can stay relevant by flash + q + ingite + ulting squishy villains.

juggernauts as a sustained damage threat are dead. thats the real problem. we need item 3005 in the game, so we can be sustained damage threats while building balls to the wall tanky in this meta, and actually survive our own win condition (getting into the middle of the enemy team).

the problem just becomes again, how do you make atmas good on juggernauts without making it great on Jax Irelia Camille etc.?

i think the answer is in base ad increases instead of gaining bonus ad from items, and a rework to sheen.

1.) make skirmishers and divers abilities mostly focused around bonus ad scalings 2.) make juggernauts abilities focused around total ad scalings 3.) make juggernaut items scale off base ad and increase base ad by flat values or %

I think another issue that people don't really know this that the base stats of those champs are rather high and are close to juggs. with only ~ 15 less AD and 200 HP, Divers are beating juggs because they are only slightly less durable but a lot faster and mobile. Making Juggs scale from tAD should be the way as their High AD and damage should be complimented by bruiser items that reward them for building tanky.

If item 3005 Grants total AD instead of Bonus then Divers and skirmishers would lose out on 100+ AD, which leads me to my next argument; Divers are not punished enough for getting too many defensive item, and giving them Bonus AD scaling while leaving their base damage mediocre would make would force them to get damage items but too many damage items would make them useless just as too many tank or even jugg items would make them unable to deal reliable damage.

Divers have to be punished for getting to many offensive items it's okay if they sit at around 2900- 3500 HP while jugg are at 4400+ HP at the late game with a full build but divers still beat out Juggs due the items there are. Juggs should benefit from defensive items more so than divers item 3053 is not a bad item because it rewards juggs more so than divers but the recent change from tAD to bonus made it more viable on divers, not bad because it benefits anyone with high base AD and building HP, in theory it would make it harder for divers to use it because they don't build as much Hp(blah blah repeating myself) don't get as big of a shield expect for it's good enough for them but not for juggs.

What needs to be done is an adjustment of the scale that divers have as well as the scaling of Juggs make them more balanced as well as dealing with the recurrent damage issue there is in the game right now.

Mordepool2 votes

{quoted}

You know who else has issues getting to ranged champions?

Fucking Mordekaiser Yet people are able to play him in challenger and high elo

why? because it doesn't matter if he has troubles getting to them ONCE HE GETS TO THEM THEYRE DEAD 100% DEAD

Darius? If he happens to somehow get into a squishy range, he will tickle them until he gets noxian might

anti tank power is irrelevant, they need power in general

Morde has Reliable Damage in his Ultimate sinceitem 3151 got changed

chipndip12 votes

[{quoted}](name=Abibyama II,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Kymsq3qN,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2018-12-28T22:18:01.544+0000)

So basically give them short/medium ranged spells to deal with marksmen and it's Gucci?

Two things:

  1. Something to deal with ranged attackers and getting kited, like you just said.

Someone like Illaoi would be super cool for team fights if she could actually get into them. Yes, jugs have low cc, but Illaoi's case is HORRENDOUS. She literally needs to be handheld and spoon-fed to be useful, and at that point you might as well pick someone else.

  1. An actual niche of value.

Yorick has medium ranged spells, but he's fucking pointless. There needs to be some dynamic that's valuable to winning games that the champ should play into. Yorick sacrificing his ult to split two lanes as his "big thing" is fucking stupid.

That's if you're asking me.

Moody P2 votes

Illaoi shouldn't have tools to overcome being kited when she's specifically designed to counter hard engage. Illaoi was never meant to be a heavy teamfighter otherwise; she draws people to her with strong push

The only thing holding Illaoi back is the fact that everyone is ranged and burst-focused right now. Any time tanks are prevalent in top lane she's one of the best tops in the game.

chipndip11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Kymsq3qN,comment-id=0003000000010002,timestamp=2018-12-29T12:17:04.980+0000)

Illaoi shouldn't have tools to overcome being kited when she's specifically designed to counter hard engage. Illaoi was never meant to be a heavy teamfighter otherwise; she draws people to her with strong push

The only thing holding Illaoi back is the fact that everyone is ranged and burst-focused right now. Any time tanks are prevalent in top lane she's one of the best tops in the game.

So one person is telling me she's an amazing team fighter, and one person is telling me she isn't a strong team fighter.

I think there's some confusion in consensus here...

Moody P2 votes

I think you should go with the guy who actually plays Illaoi

HàrrowR1 votes

Assassins,divers,skirmishers,mages and even damn tanks can blow up an adc,I dont need a darius ult becoming a range execute ty

Solo Q Memes1 votes

MonkeyKing the one bruiser who doesn't do the toe stepping, but gets toe stepped on :) He doesn't out trade any bruiser or tank (hypothetically assuming that both players have the same skill level/elo)

Irelia Bot2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Solo Q Memes,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Kymsq3qN,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2018-12-29T03:00:39.300+0000)

MonkeyKing the one bruiser who doesn't do the toe stepping, but gets toe stepped on :) He doesn't out trade any bruiser or tank (hypothetically assuming that both players have the same skill level/elo)

He does do wonders one shooting squishes though.

He should stop stepping on the toes of assassins.

Madsin251 votes

Jax Irelia Need nerfs. You could also argue Yasuo also needs nerfs.

Trying to say that those champs are better than basically ALL champs is not an argument to say Darius and Garen need some sort of special treatment.

Critmaster Garen3 votes

{quoted}

Jax Irelia Need nerfs. You could also argue Yasuo also needs nerfs.

part of the reason why these champions are so strong is, because theyre using juggernaut items.

jax, and irelia use item 3053 and item 3748 as their core items after item 3078.

they shouldnt be balanced around the use of these items, since theyre not made for them. on the flip side, it seems that because these champions can use juggernaut itemization so well, riot cant add or improve items for juggernauts without indirectly buffing these other champions at the same time.

this is why divers and skirmishers need more dedicated itemization, and jugger items need to be changed to only be efficient on juggernauts.

part of the problem also seems to be that skirmishers and divers have very little by way of their own itemization. item 3074 should generally work better on skirmishers than item 3748 but it doesnt.

1.) jugger items should be made shit or only borderline viable for divers and skirmishers so they dont want to build them every game, while it should be great on juggernauts.

2.) skirmisher items like item 3074 need to be fleshed out better and interact with their kits. the class usually works off mobility tools on short cooldowns, like Riven Jax Fiora so maybe one way would be to give ravenous a small, short duration (~0.75 seconds) shield every time they use a dash, and similar item passives

Lunaranul1 votes

How would you even rework Sheen, though?

The only way I could see it working without being Base AD is if you just gave it a base value and scaling per level, and nothing else. Then you just have a blatantly better version of Hextech Revolver, though.

Scaling it off Total AD would be a bad idea waiting to happen, and Bonus AD would just make Sheen a complete trash item.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

How would you even rework Sheen, though?

The only way I could see it working without being Base AD is if you just gave it a base value and scaling per level, and nothing else. Then you just have a blatantly better version of Hextech Revolver, though.

Scaling it off Total AD would be a bad idea waiting to happen, and Bonus AD would just make Sheen a complete trash item.

why would scaling off total ad be a bad idea?

they also could do it with a mixed value maybe.

like partially a total ad scaling and then an ad/lvl scaling on top of it, instead of 100% base ad. i dont mind an entire lvl scaling either tbh with higher values for melee champions and lower values for ranged.

i dont see the issue with item 3145 vs. item 3057 since both of them build into entirely different items.

also, imo they should make Gangplank parrley count as a ranged basic attack instead of a melee basic attack, so grasp, klepto and sheen arent as brutal on him, and hes not just a q spam bot. but thats just besides the whole discussion around sheen scaling.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by Critmaster Garen

5 years and we still have to go to third party sites to get all the information about a champion
Gameplay95 comments
371
votes
to ADC mains who complain that bot lane ziggs pokes you down from far out of your range
Gameplay228 comments
352
votes
"Melee Phase Rush users are almost universally outperforming their ranged compatriots"
Gameplay167 comments
242
votes
we need an "enemy missing" - ping
Gameplay78 comments
218
votes
WHY is vayne even buffed?
Gameplay153 comments
168
votes
cut off one head...
Gameplay60 comments
168
votes