The Gromp change is complete non-sense

Yenn·Nov 23, 2019·3 votes·2,855 views

The goal of this change was to open up more pathing options, which it failed at, for reasons that I think should have been obvious, especially to someone whose job it is to think these things through.

Gromp has just replaced Krugs in the existing single starting path. There is literally no reason to ever do a starting path that involves Krugs after this change. Every single person goes blue -> gromp -> red or red -> blue -> gromp.

The change implied some weird idea that the two camps were equivalent, which they very much are not. Gromp is easier to kill, deals less damage, and is located in a position that is much more convenient and gives more visibility of invading opponents. The only thing that it accomplished is making jungles hit level 3 faster.

This pre-season is really starting to feel like someone is throwing shit at a wall and seeing what sticks.

20 Comments

Mr Sa1ntNov 23, 20192 votes

I think that gromp giving more is a good thing, as it opens up some of the more single target junglers again. Or at least champions that had a hard time clearing the AoE camps. This means certain junglers are more viable early again, and wasn't exactly nerfing the junglers that were better at clearing raptors.

WoonStruckNov 23, 20191 votes

The only junglers that buffing gromp helped are ones that are already being played...

Heavy ganking could be considered slightly more rewarding because now you don't have to waste time clearing Krugs to remain relevant, especially with how much more important dragons are.

Being a farm jungle hardly benefits you with the decreased respawn time when you're forced to prioritize bot/mid all game to try to ensure dragon control.

Mr Sa1ntNov 23, 20191 votes

I imagine Kindred is slightly better, since her raptor clear was pretty awful. She wasn't really ever being played for a long time, at least not overly successfully.

I'm sure you're right though too, because Xin was already getting played...Vi was already good, kha, etc. I'm just certain that there are some that did get indirect buffs.

WoonStruckNov 23, 20191 votes

Kindred never deserves buffs. Nobody likes the champion except the people who play her. She completely denies playmaking while being able to make plays herself.

She needs a rework. Preferably one that actually emphasizes the dual aspect of death she's supposed to be...not just a weird passive damage source on one ability that you use more for the primary champion's CDR either way.

Mr Sa1ntNov 23, 20191 votes

Regardless of who likes/dislikes a champion, there shouldn't be champions that are almost unplayable. That's not really the topic here.

If a champion like her gets an indirect buff, that isn't a bad thing. Just the issue is that, other junglers that were already strong...some of them also just got better.

Vi/kha are definitely stronger, since Vi has her W for really great single target clear...and Kha has his isolation bonus. They have a "better" early game, which means their late game just comes sooner.

Pierce The VealNov 23, 20192 votes

Khazix change is good

Chainman3Nov 23, 20191 votes

Gromp has just replaced Krugs in the existing single starting path. There is literally no reason to ever do a starting path that involves Krugs after this change. Every single person goes blue -> gromp -> red or red -> blue -> gromp.

Kayn Hecarim and any other AoE clearing jungle who can start raptors. Raptors > Red > Krugs > Recall > Blue > Wolves/Grump > Grump/Wolves> Bot or top/Mid Gank

WoonStruckNov 23, 20191 votes

That's because hec/kayn don't interact with lanes/junglers early if they can help it.

Most junglers try to...you know...gank. Maybe take scuttle. The very large majority of AoE clearing junglers cannot start raptors. Red->krugs will kill them after raptors.

Chainman3Nov 23, 20191 votes

First you said

Every single person

Then you said

Most junglers

Your words not mine.

Red->krugs will kill them after raptors.

Not true either i can do this on khazix and still be healthy enough to farm my blueside camps as well. If you're kiting properly and using your skills properly it isnt an issue. Any talisman jungler can do this.

WoonStruckNov 23, 20191 votes

Where did I say "Every single person"?

Also, most junglers DO attempt to gank level 3, or at least check top to see if they can counter gank, taking scuttle in the process after whether it happens or not.

Chainman3Nov 23, 20191 votes

Every single person goes blue -> gromp -> red or red -> blue -> gromp.

WoonStruckNov 23, 20191 votes

I didn't make this post, my dude.

Chainman3Nov 23, 20191 votes

Oh i assumed you were the OP on a different account since you responded to my response to the OP's comments.

YennNov 23, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Kayn Hecarim and any other AoE clearing jungle who can start raptors. Raptors > Red > Krugs > Recall > Blue > Wolves/Grump > Grump/Wolves> Bot or top/Mid Gank

This is no longer an efficient path. They both do the same path as everyone else now, because having your gromp stolen is a major set back.

Chainman3Nov 23, 20191 votes

https://youtu.be/1rSYC10bkP8?t=2

I guess challenger players dont know what theyre doing then.

WoonStruckNov 23, 20191 votes

I mean, it could be feasible on someone like Skarner, who isn't normally expected to start raptors, but can do so. Most won't willingly invade a skarner in his zone, with a few exceptions. If he backed for a longsword instead of a machete, you're going to die to him as almost any jungler. Then there's the fact that you'll be permaslowed until his team arrives.

Hard to beat 82 AD, 1.1 AS with 409 MS at level 3 unless you're someone like Udyr, who basically has ALL of the bonuses Skarner has, but his stun and shield are more spammable and has a heal. Also his offensive base stats are slightly better than Skarner's.

Chainman3Nov 23, 20191 votes

I mean, it could be feasible on someone like Skarner, who isn't normally expected to start raptors, but can do so.

Besides this, what else from your response was actually a response about this pathing and how other junglers wont do it?

YennNov 23, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I mean, it could be feasible on someone like Skarner, who isn't normally expected to start raptors, but can do so. Most won't willingly invade a skarner in his zone, with a few exceptions. If he backed for a longsword instead of a machete, you're going to die to him as almost any jungler. Then there's the fact that you'll be permaslowed until his team arrives.

Hard to beat 82 AD, 1.1 AS with 409 MS at level 3 unless you're someone like Udyr, who basically has ALL of the bonuses Skarner has, but his stun and shield are more spammable and has a heal. Also his offensive base stats are slightly better than Skarner's.

If you full clear top side and your bottom side gets invaded, your Gromp and blue are both gone by the time you recall, and you're now stuck at level 3 with no camps up, while the enemy jungle is pushing level 5.

{quoted}

https://youtu.be/1rSYC10bkP8?t=2

I guess challenger players dont know what theyre doing then.

They're doing what they're used to doing.

WoonStruckNov 23, 20191 votes

Why would they invade bot side if you're "likely" starting there with a leash? With his current pathing, nobody assumes Skarner is going to start raptors and forego a leash, especially since bot side was buffed and red side was nerfed quite significantly.

Use a little logic for this one, please.

Since you don't gank top after the full clear (unless top lane is asking to be killed, thus making losing bot jungle worth) they can't count your CS or check your buffs and immediately go to your bot side to clear it, especially since most are looking to gank top by that point.

If a red side start became common on Skarner, I'd agree, but its far from the norm on him, especially since playing Skarner in general is far from the norm. Most people probably don't know what his normal pathing even is right now.

RekSai CoffeeCoNov 23, 20191 votes

Trundle Zac Ekko and other ST junglers would benefit from a blue side start and gromp change would help that.

I am not sure why some people dislike having more pathing options/viable champs for jungle who had probs with the raptors/krugs level 3 route. I am guessing those who are against it don't like to figure out where jungler started from.