Please understand the real balancing issue with Riven.

FistOfSharkiesha··36 votes·3,429 views

Riven has been going strong for quite some time now with a high pick, ban, and win rate. It's clear she needs to be observed and adjusted accordingly, but we have to identify the real problem.

I believe it's the fact that she has such a massive safety net on top of her absurdly strong early game dueling power. She's a fighter/assassin that can kill tanks, fighters, and assassins alike. There is no other assassin in the game that can 100-0 someone and also have no trouble with fighters and tanks (who naturally counter assassins). Riven is the only one capable of doing so.

On top of this she has a resourceless, low cooldown safety net of dashes and an AD scaling shield. This makes ganking her very difficult, impossible if she wards. By the time her 4 dashes are on cooldown, she's standing under her turret. This is an obvious problem when it's so difficult to 1v1 her in lane. Even worse, she has 1.5 seconds of hard CC mixed into her kit for some reason.

So how does this come together? Her trading power is unlimited. She has no mana issues to hold her back from jumping in, bursting you for 60% of your hp while you're stunned or knocked up, then dashing away and shielding any damage she might take from you. It's the fact that she can burst like assassin but has hard CC to remove any counterplay.

Now let's look at her counters.

Garen Honestly I don't know if he's going to be a decent counter to her anymore, especially with his silence nerf. We will have to see where his rework takes us before casting judgement. Renekton My personal favorite counter to Riven, but he has 1 glaring fault. His sustain pushes the wave. This means that the best way to counter Riven 1v1 sets you up for a 1v2. This is a very dangerous and unreliable counter, and I don't think it's adequate. Darius Also being reworked and is notoriously easy to gank at any point in the game. Olaf Probably the best counter to Riven although his axe can push the wave and she can beat him pre-6, which is her most oppressive time in the game. Shyvana This basically leaves Shyvana as the remaining half decent counter against Riven, and unlike other matchups such as Ahri being completely rendered useless by Yasuo, this is only a minniscule advantage. Riven's spontaneous ability usage will allow her to outplay a good amount of Shyvanas.

Just because she has 1 or 2 half decent counters doesn't mean it's okay for her to stomp 95% of the other champions in the game. You can't even stagnate the lane into a farmfest or anything because of her 4 gap closers. You either lose CS or you die.

So here are the best options to give her more counterplay, or tbh simply get rid of her lack of counterplay:

  1. Give her resources whether energy or HP or mana.

  2. Adjust her cooldowns. Her entire kit is spammable, which is made into an enormous issue when she doesn't use resources and her full kit spam is uncounterable. Adjust her shield CD to allow her to be poked down, or give her 3 dash Q a more reasonable timer so that she's actually catchable. Her best counterplay is hard CC (which is true for nearly every champion) but the only CC that can stop her almost always has a higher cooldown than her kit and high mana costs, limiting it's use. Riven can jump back in a few seconds later while any CC is on cooldown and blast your ass to bits.

tl;dr People don't take into account the fact that her 1v1 potential is nearly unrivaled, she is extremely hard to punish with a gank, her low cooldowns and resourcelessness allows her to pick and choose her battles, and she can simply avoid her counters altogether or punish them for pushing the lane. Rebalance her power, her CC, or her spammability.

105 Comments

360D3GR3SS16 votes

Riven vs maokai. Tree wins.

EvilRabbitt5 votes

Irelia counters Riven. Completely. I'm amazed she didn't get mentioned >.>

kile1474 votes

Irelia counters everything

YumaS2Astral2 votes

{quoted}

Irelia counters everything

Irelia does not counter Riven

Darkwind5 votes

at the highest level, irelia players beat riven players most of the time.

it's not at all a hard counter, though. if you misplay it as irelia, riven can beat you easily.

kile1471 votes

True, I looked into it and Riven is Irelia's worst matchup. That being said, it's still a skill matchup and probably 50-50 odds so I guess the correct way to say it is fight cancer with cancer and everybody loses.

GloriousKaiser4 votes

Lane appears to be passive. Maokai doesn't have the capability to hurt Riven enough to warrant her playing warily. And Riven maybe can't kill Maokai without a good mistake. Plus her spammy abilities give him free charges.

360D3GR3SS4 votes

Yes but maokaI has a root and knockup. Meaning riven will not be a threat for over 2 seconds (cannot dash or do anything)

FistOfSharkiesha2 votes

He has a knock back, not knock up. He doesn't have any kill pressure vs Riven and is gated by mana issues. The moment she buys sustain he can't 1v1 her. He's not a bad pick. He can survive and then go do a decent job at teamfighting, but he's not a counter.

360D3GR3SS3 votes

Extremely similar. I see it as a knock up because the target has more vertical jump than a vayne condemn which is a knock back. And yes, however i would argue that ganking a riven with maokai will shut her down harder than someone ganking maokai.

NemeBro10 votes

{quoted}

He has a knock back, not knock up. He doesn't have any kill pressure vs Riven and is gated by mana issues. The moment she buys sustain he can't 1v1 her. He's not a bad pick. He can survive and then go do a decent job at teamfighting, but he's not a counter.

If you can reliably survive lane against Riven and be far more useful in team fights, you counter her. Malphite counters her for the same reason.

Crowe Stalker1 votes

Honestly the best game I've ever had against a Riven was as a Maokai. She was so extremely intent on bursting me down early she neglected to realize every time we traded I won because my passive just negated almost 75% of her damage and I then proceeded to smash her face in. At the end she was like 0/5 with 50 CS. A shame Bot Lane didn't ward and ended up feeding her two kills to get back into the game (and eventually kick my ass despite bashing her face in lane) but I honestly feel like now if I see Riven, I can comfortably pick Maokai or Malphite to fight her.

I think the worst part about Riven is just that even games when she does get shut down, she somehow picks someone and then suddenly, despite having a bad laning phase, she comes out stronger than anyone. It feels like whenever she loses lane and scales anyway, I've been cheated...

360D3GR3SS1 votes

I would say new fiora can wreck her all stages of the game. You can fight her so well using your new W stun and can avoid her ultimate with Q or W. Usually if you time your abilities right, Fiora will just win.

Thresh Outta Fux10 votes

I like how all of these posts are well thought out and intricately created.

And Riven mains just dive into the thread, ears plugged and shitposting things that counter every champion.

"She's countered by CC!"

Let me give you a list of champions NOT countered by CC: Gangplank

And what a list it is.

FistOfSharkiesha5 votes

Yeah and they ignore the fact that the only champions with hard CC lack the dueling power to do anything with it. Let me burn my 20 second cooldown stun to avoid this trade. Oh she just shielded 100% of the damage. Oh she's coming right back to do it again 8 seconds alter while my stun is off cooldown.

Baron of Bread3 votes

Irelia

SunriseSkaterKid9 votes

Maybe bronze-plat kids are the experts at these type of things because countless high ranking streamers call her useless. Even BoxBox himself explained that she is in a really poor state at the current moment. It has nothing to do with her Cooldowns, damage etc. Yes her cooldowns are low but any champions CD would be low as fuck if you built 40% CDR which most riven mains do. Level 1-3 all her abilities have a minimum of 8 second CD. Thats a long ass time. Upping her CD would destroy her. Making her Q longer would make her useless in early fights which is what she strives in. Nerfing her E would make her awful because she can easily be nuked. I know all riven mains say this but literally she dies in a millisecond if you get a stun on her. and if you dont kill her but get her low she basically becomes useless in a fight. The only kids i see who play riven anymore in my Plat+ games are Mains who have like 40K champion points on her.

Probably going to get a lot of downvotes from salty kids who cant face a riven :/

Hinagiku334 votes

Honestly, is Riven even dominating Bronze? I don't play ranked but I haven't seen a Riven in at least a year.

I can't recall the last time I've been afraid that the enemy would pick Riven.

4 Dashes? You mean three tiny hops and one of the shortest dashes in the game? She can use all 4 of them and never reach the back line.

Huge AD-scaling shield? That lasts for all of 1.5 seconds. Why is AD scaling even an issue? That's like saying Diana's shield shouldn't have an AP ratio since AP is her primary damage stat.

Hard CC? Yeah it annoying, but it's also really short duration. It's dangerous as hell if she's fed but it's not nearly enough to take on anyone even remotely tanky if she isn't fed.

Her ult is quite good though, makes her burst harder and gives her a kickass execute. I don't think it's OP, especially as the execute is a skillshot unlike Garen's and Darius' ults.

Seriously people, I'm sure I'd be Bronze trash if I played ranked and even I know that the best way to beat Riven is to not be an idiot. Stop thinking that you have to kill Riven 3+ times in the lane phase or you lose to her. That mentality is why she's beating you. Riven WANTS you to get aggressive and try to trade with her. Riven WANTS you to feel like you lose unless you play by her terms. Ignore her. Don't feed her kills and she can't snowball. If the enemy picks Riven then pick ANYONE that can build tanky, focus only on farming and not dying, and buy early armor.

Not Katarina3 votes

Her winrate below Plat is actually negative, last time I checked (about a week ago) it was at 48. She only hits 52% at Plat. GOOD Riven players hit a 56% winrate with her, which is approx a 4% increase from 135+ games of playing Riven (This is normal, most players achieve a 4% increase in winrate with 135+ games on a champion in comparison to those new to a champion; stats from Plat+). I personally have no complaints with her. She's a snowball-y champion but lacks if she isn't ahead.

doombotMECHA1 votes

personnally, i feel like that winrate is 95% due to the really salty riven mains...you know the ones. they blame their team for evry mistake they make, build full damage every game, yada yada...if mainly super-competent people played riven (see: samus in ssb, Karma pre-rework), her winrate would be higher.

Not Katarina1 votes

Huh? What do you mean? The data I stated is measured across thousands of thousands of Riven players. Who go from 15-50 games with a 48% winrate, to hardcore Riven players who have over 135 recorded games with a 56% winrate. This puts Riven's average winrate at 52% in Plat or higher. Even a thousand "salty" Riven players would not have the impact to move a winrate 4%.

And competent? Everyone is competent enough to play Riven. In Plat+ most players have the game knowledge. Riven is more than button smashing, and that is why there is a correlation between games played and winrate. Knowing your winrate improves the more you master a champion is a good example of champion design - this is prominent with many champions. If she was flat out unbalanced, her winrate would not be sitting on average in a good place - and there wouldn't be much room to improve on overtime.

RickySpanìsh 1 votes

i met one yesterday in one normal draft, a plat 2 riven in top lane, i tried to use garen ( which i never used after rework ) and basically i had only 2 choices , tower hug and survive ( going under lvl ) or try take some creeps and fight but also die.. in the end i died 4 times and she tool the tower, then i started roaming to make a comeback , i took some kills and towers by split pushing , but she basically outplayed whole my team every fight and won by being 4 lvl above of everyone...i might have sucked, but i still remember a time where garen was able to sustain her dmg and also counter her.. this is not anymore. Also the fact that she has no mana issues makes her really strong in overextended fights where all your carries spend their mana to kill 2 of enemy team , then riven comes from behind and rape them.. i know best way to deal with her is not give her kills but if you find a really good riven these days you can also hope to have a lvl 2 gank from jungler to manage to farm something with a melee/tank.. after yesterday i think i'll simply pick good wave clearers ( like viktor, veigar, lux, ziggs ,etc ) and keep my distance and poke as i farm from the tower safety,. first item zhonya so she can't ez dive.. borest lane ever but at least she doesnt snoball.

    • you will say : a plat 2 riven vs silver OFC it has snowballed, but next game i had a mordekaiser plat 2 in team that fed hard a silver 3 garen XD so i think you just need to be a skilled riven player to almost own everyone top lane..
KnighRrider3 votes

FINALLY! somebody's making some sense. Sick of losers complaining about Riven on the forms, i swear like 90% of these whiners have Teemo summoner icons... And honestly they're all just mad because either they're bad top laners or they played against a Riven who could animation cancel. I main riven and i can't animation cancel nor have I ever seen an enemy riven who could. They go on YouTube and watch BoxBox and are like "yep, she needs to be nerfed ...RIOT!!!" I know I sound harsh, but I see these complaint threads everywhere and its all the same crap. Just because you can't beat a champion in lane doesn't mean they're broken. I can't survive lane against a Kat with most of my mid lane champs, she just spams that knife shit whenever i try to farm and jumps in for the kill when I'm low enough, do I bitch about it the whole game? no! because I know I can beat her with other champs. They're always like "Riven has not counter play because... she does lots of dmg fast if ur one of the 10 ppl in the world who can animation cancel" have you EVER played mid against an Lb who knows what shes doing!?!?

xl Kirito lx7 votes

Cho'gath tends to be a good matchup for Riven also.

FistOfSharkiesha3 votes

This matchup is a toss-up. Riven can easily dash out of the way of his knock up or bait the silence and blow him up. A good cho counters riven, a good riven counters cho, if both are good, anything can happen. I call this an even matchup.

GloriousKaiser6 votes

It's a combination of factors that make Riven OP. And funny part is, other champions have these variables built into their kits. But difference? Riven has them all.

FistOfSharkiesha3 votes

I think that's why she has gone unchanged for so long. So many people don't identify the real issue. The say you can just pick X champion into her and maybe have a slight advantage, but they don't factor in the issue that your counterpick might be easier to gank and that a good Riven will simply avoid trading with you. It's easy for a Riven to mitigate the severity of a counterpick, but the opposite cannot be said for when she has the advantage.

Zero Engine3 votes

[deleted]

FistOfSharkiesha1 votes

They don't have 4 dashes, a stun, a knock up, a shield, or the dueling power to win any trade?

The HeraId2 votes

{quoted}

They don't have 4 dashes, a stun, a knock up, a shield, or the dueling power to win any trade?

She doesn't win every trade. Play someone like Aatrox, she does in, disengages, all her abilities on CD, you just re engage with Q, sustain with W, and slow with E, and congrats you have now won the trade because Riven has shit health regen and aatrox sustains like a beast.

You literally save your cds until after her comb is over unless you have a silence, and just kill her. Or play safe 1-3 and at 6, and win because she literally has no way of doing anything w/o kills.

She is annoying, but in reality, not too hard to beat.

Poske4 votes

Riven has more counters then average champion suprisingly

However she counters aatrox

Alistar support can nulify riven

YCitizenSnipsY6 votes

Since when does Riven kill tanks?

FistOfSharkiesha1 votes

Since forever? They don't have the damage to burst her and they sure as hell don't have the damage to win an extended trade. This is assuming we're in laning phase 1v1.

YCitizenSnipsY1 votes

http://champion.gg/champion/Riven/Top

~~Look at her top ten worst match ups, 7 are tanks ~~ Look at her top then best match ups, 2 are tanks

my bad read those backwards, I still don't see how a tank that plays safe in the laning phase and farms up can't have a bigger impact in team fights than see does.

FistOfSharkiesha1 votes

Because you can't play safe vs a Riven that's the entire point of this thread.

YCitizenSnipsY2 votes

Let her shove, farm under turret and ask for gank while she's over extended isn't an option?

Darkwind1 votes

it's an option, but you'll fall really far behind doing it, and eventually she'll be able to abuse valor to harass you under tower til she can easily dive you. Not a possibility vs all tanks, but it's a real one against a lot of them.

YCitizenSnipsY2 votes

I just don't like how he makes it seem like there is nothing that can be done against her. Last time i checked she didn't have a 100% winrate, people are still beating her. I'm also not gonna claim to be an expert on Riven and what it takes to beat her, I'm just saying that because that's what I did as Malphite the last time I laned against a Riven and it worked really well for me.

Troll for Trump2 votes

BEcause you're going to fall super behind, and she will roam. If she wards, she is ungankable unless she has the map awareness of Christopher Colombus. If she roams and gets kills, she becomes a katarina. If you are behind, you won't have enough gold to get armor items(even mroe so with the upcoming armor nerfs), and she will be able to get BC, and maybe last whisper. No champ should force you to camp your turret. Except teemo vs Nasus, but that's only one specific matchup. Riven, against most things, forces you to fall behind in gold. "look at her worst matchups" BLA BLA BLA. She killsthe tanks early game, and obliterates them with armor pen cc and mobility lategame.

EvilRabbitt5 votes

You forgot to mention Irelia who counters Riven. Riven has hard cc, Irelia's passive reduces it. Riven goes in for burst-engages (not all-in), Irelia heals by just hitting things. Irelia has a stun when lower than an enemy in hp. Etc etc. Riven vs Irelia, Irelia should come out on top.

FistOfSharkiesha1 votes

Irelia is pretty weak until she gets sheen and several ranks in her W. I'm focusing on Riven's early game rather than mid or overall gameplay. I want to give her more viability in teamfights and lategame and a less oppressive laning phase. Nasus counters her just 10 minutes into the game but his early game is so weak that there's a pretty clear understanding that he is horrible to pick into Riven.

Goodest Gamer2 votes

irelia beats everyone top lane. shes broken alongside with the ranged cancer gnar.

Baunjo5 votes

Please cry harder than the other 5 threads i have read just TODAY about riven being OP. Maybe you will actually have a valid argument if you add in more waterworks

Zaghyr4 votes

{quoted}

Please cry harder than the other 5 threads i have read just TODAY about riven being OP. Maybe you will actually have a valid argument if you add in more waterworks

So I wasn't the only one cruising through the hate threads for the past 24 hours? Sweet, at least I know there is someone else who is sick of the same thread being repeated 30 million times by different people in one day.

ChaoticPinecone3 votes

Hecarim does well against Riven as well.

Nilok3 votes

Pantheon is a solid counter.

CasterGilgamesh3 votes

riven is not very good at all im not even a riven main i just happen to like her and don't want her to fucking see her end up like Kassadin these post need to fucking stop wanting riven nerfed just because you lose to her is not a valid reason and that's for every champion

Sammystorm2 votes

Mana would actually probably end up as a buff. It makes her item path less awkward. I personally like the idea of energy.

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