Why does Kassadin's E still require charges?

FistOfSharkiesha·Sep 28, 2015·73 votes·16,609 views

I've never understood this even before his massive nerfs. Now, it just makes absolutely no sense. His E is gated by a cooldown and still requires mana so what's the point in this charge system? He can't poke with it and most likely wouldn't be able to use it more than once in a trade, with or without the charge system.

There are other slows in the game with higher AP ratios and without this whacky system. Can I either get an explanation to this or get support to remove it? Maybe it made sense when he was good but now he has tons of room for buffs, and this just seems like a good first thing to look at.

75 Comments

RiotMeddlerSep 29, 201521 votes

Kassadin was created long before my time at Riot, some benefits I can see to the charge system though:

It allows Kassadin to use his E significantly more often in team fights than some 1v1s, giving a champion with strong duelist power a boost elsewhere
It modifies how favorable some match ups are for Kassadin, giving him an edge against certain opponents and therefore adding a bit of extra depth to the decision of when to pick him or not, without getting into hard counter territory.
It adds a small amount of extra decision making to both Kassadin's play and his lane opponent's (value of next spell cast changes slightly in some circumstances if it's the one that allows an E cast).

Now, if Kassadin were to be buffed, we certainly could remove that gate on his E, that would add power to him. Initial reaction personally though is that it's a mechanic that creates some optimization and adds a little bit of distinctiveness in some circumstances, so if we were to add power there would likely be more interesting ways to do so that created, rather than removed, gameplay.

FistOfSharkieshaSep 29, 201526 votes

I just don't understand why only Kassadin has this. The closest thing to it is Maokai who just gets free healing. Now that Rylai's exists permaslows already run rampant, so Kassadin's 1 second slow, although quite severe, isn't very impressive. Basically I'm arguing that Diana exists to do Kassadin's job way more reliably and other than his (now very short) blink, Kassadin doesn't have much unique to him. He's fairly weak and even though he's considered an "anti-mage" he doesn't even get scaling MR, making his passive pretty useless if you consider glass cannon assassins get over 20 MR more than him without wasting a passive for it.

RiotMeddlerSep 29, 20159 votes

Is the core issue here for you that Kassadin's E has some unique gating or that you feel Kass is weak? Could understand (though not necessarily agree with) either as a point of view, just looking to dig a bit deeper into feedback.

The LovelessSep 29, 20153 votes

Both IMO

DfenestratorSep 29, 20152 votes

In my opinion, one of the biggest issues with Kass is that it feels like several other champions encroach a lot on his (supposedly) unique identity, but don't have to pay as much for it in their power budget.

Photos of GhostsSep 29, 20151 votes

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/1GgRB2OU-charges-for-kasss-e-are-ok-but-he-then-shouldnt-have-a-cooldown-on-it

TurquoiseYoshiSep 29, 20151 votes

Honestly, imo, his E gate is fine. However, his E is not powerful enough to deserve the gate. You could build Rylai's on many champions and get better and more reliable slows than Kassadin, not even mentioning actual slows that give more slows and damage, and cost less.

The Bearded BardSep 29, 20153 votes

I think the problem here is they don't understand that if Kass wasn't gated by the number of spells thing, he'd be gated by a longer cooldown or some other disadvantage. Personally, I think it'd be really cool if it only had the number of spells thing instead of a cooldown. This gives him a unique spell that has clear advantages and disadvantages. Obviously you'd have to tweak it a bit so it wouldn't be ridiculously powerful in teamfights, but I think it's got potential.

J EevoSep 29, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Is the core issue here for you that Kassadin's E has some unique gating or that you feel Kass is weak? Could understand (though not necessarily agree with) either as a point of view, just looking to dig a bit deeper into feedback.

It's mostly the fact that it still has a gating after already being gutted along with the rest of his kit which just seems like a relic of the old times that is no longer necessary as the skill is on the powerlevel of a basic league ability yet treated as if special. IF the charge was about some specific passive buff to the skill that the opponent actually has to watch out for it'd be fine but it's NOT something like Yas's Q stack that brings a certain risk to engaging or not. Kass has his slow up? no big deal. Kass doesn't have his slow up? no big deal either because it doesn't bring enough to the fight to care, and loads fast anyway so if you attack him, treating it as an opening it'll be up in a flash anyway.

He honestly feels like he just needs a rework after all the work done to him as his skills doesn't really seem to work together well anyway, and the sole reason why his R got so horribly mutilated that people started calling it riftlimp wasn't even the real problem, but the combination of range extension through R into the completely skil-less and unavoidable point and click combo of QE that it enabled, that was, and I suspect he won't get buffed until it goes away anyway.

FistOfSharkieshaSep 29, 20154 votes

Both. I think Kassadin has room for a buff. He has a very weak laning phase and he's easily replaced by Akali or Diana, Diana being one of the highest winrate mage/assassins in the game, for obvious reasons.

If other champions have access to very similar abilities (Annie's W comes to mind) that are as strong or stronger, with similar cooldowns, I just don't see the need for the charge system. His slow is harsh, but it's just for 1 second and after the Rylai's rework nearly any mage can permaslow, making it even less valuable as an ability.

Having an ability gated by mana, a charge system, and a cooldown is odd. Maybe 2 of those 3 things would be fine, but it just seems like overkill, especially on a champion that has been considered weak for quite some time now. He has room for buffs and this would be one place to start. His Q and W are in a really good place right now, so I would personally look to buff/rework his E, R, or even his passive. Being an "anti-mage" without scaling MR just makes it like his passive is making up for a weakness he shouldn't have. Even AD assassins get scaling MR and Kassadin doesn't.

Sorry if I'm being redundant but my point is Kass doesn't have the most amazing abilities so it makes no sense to me why one of them has an unnecessary requirement. Other champions have better abilities and do his job more efficiently. You're better off assassinating people with Annie's monstrous AP ratios now that Kassadin's blink barely takes you anywhere.

Meeks011Sep 30, 20152 votes

Also, his bases are like 180 or 140 at rank 5 with high cooldowns and mana costs.

I build Kassadin full AD and deal more damage per auto than Kassadin's entire burst.

Kassadin's passive and Q are useless in lane a large percentage of the time. Zed and Yasuo are very popular.

Darius has Kassadin's E at rank one of his own E. Kassadin might be able to use his more often, but ONLY in a teamfight and what use is that if you can't get into range to use it without dying instantly?

Kassadin has really low range and his ult has been repeatedly nerfed. He'll die in the 2 seconds before it comes off of cooldown.

pripustasSep 29, 20156 votes

In the world where Vayne and Leblanc exists with their mobility and stealth, why does Kassadin trade so much for his ult, now that it has a very small radius? Please tell me why do you feel that it makes sense for Kassadin to be this weak? Look at Vayne. If you've played against a good Vayne (I'm sure you have) you will know, that you can't escape her, or catch her, unless you have a couple of teammates with hard point-click cc. So how come she's allowed to be this strong.

Kassadin's role states assassin, but he really does not have the tools to pull off an assassination. What good is mobility if you hit like a feather? Please, I urge you, talk it over with your co-workers, and find some way to improve this kind-hearted mask dude. All he wants is to save us from the Voidlings, but he needs some hard training in the hyperbolic chamber. How can you expect people to buy that skin for charity, when he's practically unplayable in soloq?

Thank you.

TrippieasbroSep 30, 20151 votes

His ult range should scale with each rank to give him a much stronger late game, he still would have weaknesses where you can push lane, take his tower, deprive him of gold and win before he can hit late game.

Khell DarkWolfSep 29, 20152 votes

To be fair, his E should keep the charge system but allow him to use it even with zero charges but have it's power cut into 1/6th of its max power.

Basically each charge increases its usefulness until he reaches 5 charges like normal it does its original live values. Example 0 charges 1/6th of efficiency, 1 charge = 2/6ths, 2 charges 3/6ths, 3 charges 4/6ths, 4 charges 5/6ths, 5 charges 6/6ths (One whole equal to live values).

This way it'll give the player some decision making in deciding when he should use it, throw a weak one out for low damage and slow or wait until its fully charged for the max dmg and slow effects.

It was placed there in the first place because he was called the anti-mage. But that is a farcry to what he is able to do now, since a real anti-mage is now categorized better as playing an early game assassin. I could see Kassadin as a fighter, but really he is just all over the place with low base stats and base damages on his abilities and the late game aspect is just a sad place to wait to bring him into light cause it really isn't all that fun going through that risk of giving up that early game in favor of it.

One of the main reasons I've stopped maining Kassadin plus all the constant changes he has gone through, he really doesn't have a defined place even in his niche.

In terms of the other original anti-mage that you don't see as often is Galio, and Galio is really more of an anti-magic bruiser in respect to how things have evolved.

EDIT: In more ways then one, he just feels like a bstrd child version of Fizz that has to wait to build items late into the game or a crappy assassin with hardly any real burst.

Teridax68Sep 29, 20153 votes

What if you went the other way round, keeping Kass's charge mechanic but removing its cooldown? It would probably entail a few more changes down the line, but would allow him to really shine in heated teamfights while keeping the same overall 1v1 potential (though he'd perform even better when dealing with spammy offensive spellcasters).

NahuiSep 29, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Kassadin was created long before my time at Riot, some benefits I can see to the charge system though:

It allows Kassadin to use his E significantly more often in team fights than some 1v1s, giving a champion with strong duelist power a boost elsewhere

It modifies how favorable some match ups are for Kassadin, giving him an edge against certain opponents and therefore adding a bit of extra depth to the decision of when to pick him or not, without getting into hard counter territory.

It adds a small amount of extra decision making to both Kassadin's play and his lane opponent's (value of next spell cast changes slightly in some circumstances if it's the one that allows an E cast).

Now, if Kassadin were to be buffed, we certainly could remove that gate on his E, that would add power to him. Initial reaction personally though is that it's a mechanic that creates some optimization and adds a little bit of distinctiveness in some circumstances, so if we were to add power there would likely be more interesting ways to do so that created, rather than removed, gameplay.

My only issue is that I don't quite see why it has this charge mechanic. Or rather, how it is a balancing point. As a spell, it has low base damage and just an ok scaling. There's nothing spectacular about it that I see requires charges to keep it in check. I feel like removing the charge system but maybe increasing the cooldown would be a better option for Kassadin nowadays. Because giving it a charge system AND a cooldown just seems silly. It implies that, yes, it is supposed to be great in team fights, but then the cooldown just makes it like any other spell.

The slow is fine and all, however it only lasts one second. I understand back when it slowed for like 3 seconds how an aoe cone slow could be troublesome by slowing someone in lane for 3 seconds on a whim, however now it's reduced and I think these charges are being kept because "It's always been that way" and not so much what would be a good balancing point. I feel that if it works on a charge system, it should definitely do more than just slow and do very mediocre damage. In fact, I feel like adding some anti-mage mechanic onto it would be very unique and thematically fit him as an anti mage. Something like letting him cast void pulse in its current state any time, however at 6 stacks, perhaps have it do something extra that targets mages whether it be some sort of silence or implement a mechanic where the target does some value of reduced magic damage for like 1-2 seconds, or something of the sort.

JedenVojakSep 29, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Kassadin was created long before my time at Riot, some benefits I can see to the charge system though:

It allows Kassadin to use his E significantly more often in team fights than some 1v1s, giving a champion with strong duelist power a boost elsewhere

It modifies how favorable some match ups are for Kassadin, giving him an edge against certain opponents and therefore adding a bit of extra depth to the decision of when to pick him or not, without getting into hard counter territory.

It adds a small amount of extra decision making to both Kassadin's play and his lane opponent's (value of next spell cast changes slightly in some circumstances if it's the one that allows an E cast).

Now, if Kassadin were to be buffed, we certainly could remove that gate on his E, that would add power to him. Initial reaction personally though is that it's a mechanic that creates some optimization and adds a little bit of distinctiveness in some circumstances, so if we were to add power there would likely be more interesting ways to do so that created, rather than removed, gameplay.

I think the problem is not so much the charge system in and of itself as it is that the spell is no longer powerful enough that it should be gated in such a fashion - it does as much damage as his Q, while having a worthless 1 second slow on it and that's it. I can't speak for others, but for myself I do not feel that the power of his force pulse warrants the constraints put upon it, especially given similar abilities on other champions which do not have such requirements.

I certainly would have no complains about the charge system remaining if the spell had power that warranted such a barrier.

junglerboy16Sep 29, 20152 votes

Instead of removing the spell charge system, I think the best way to buff it would be to remove the cooldown. Requiring X number of spell casts to use fits pretty well thematically and should be kept, but that, in combination with a mana cost, is plenty of gating on the ability. The cooldown is redundant and makes it so the use case you mentioned (limited use in a 1v1 scenario, boosted use during a team fight) because in a team fight, you could have the charges refreshed almost instantly and it makes no difference because he has to wait another 5 seconds to use it anyway. Abilities with non-fixed cooldowns (like Shyvana's ult, or any ability who's cooldown reduces for AAing like Master Yi's alpha strike) have been proven to work and be balanced in the past, so I think making that shift here for Kassadin would help capture his gameplay identity better than keeping the cooldown and removing the reset.

Sagee PrimeSep 29, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Kassadin was created long before my time at Riot, some benefits I can see to the charge system though:

It allows Kassadin to use his E significantly more often in team fights than some 1v1s, giving a champion with strong duelist power a boost elsewhere

It modifies how favorable some match ups are for Kassadin, giving him an edge against certain opponents and therefore adding a bit of extra depth to the decision of when to pick him or not, without getting into hard counter territory.

It adds a small amount of extra decision making to both Kassadin's play and his lane opponent's (value of next spell cast changes slightly in some circumstances if it's the one that allows an E cast).

Now, if Kassadin were to be buffed, we certainly could remove that gate on his E, that would add power to him. Initial reaction personally though is that it's a mechanic that creates some optimization and adds a little bit of distinctiveness in some circumstances, so if we were to add power there would likely be more interesting ways to do so that created, rather than removed, gameplay.

Seems more like you should let him use the skill whenever it's off cooldown but give it some unique effect related to charges. Weaker skill without charges and stronger with charges?

MasterVidallisSep 29, 20151 votes

That gating is complicated, but has no depth. It's clutter. You use his E as part of your damage combo. When it's not available you just don't use it or don't go in because it's not up. Since the trigger is more reliant on what others are doing than you, in actual game play the result is just randomness. If you oponnent has lower CD's it's up more often. You still use it when it's up and you have a chance to, when it's not up you don't. That's the same way CD works. There is no depth to the mechanic, which is probably why you haven't given it to any other champ for damage abilities.

Maokai's passive is totally different because it's not part of his damage combo it's a sustain tool to help him counter casters, so it actually makes sense that you can use it more in response to people casting around you.

famouskillSep 29, 20151 votes

i think it should be removed, i personally don't like it and it would be much more useful if you could use it whenever. And because he go's solo in a lane, he wouldn't have anyone else to help charge his E. Maybe take the charge off and add a mana cost or something else to even it out.

Centerpoint360Sep 29, 20151 votes

Personally, I think the charge system is fine... if it would override the cooldown, or vice versa. Basically, whichever one activates first allows you to cast Kass' E.

As it is now, you have to both have all your charges AND its be off cooldown. I'd like to see where if you only have 3 charges, but the cooldown is off, you can cast it again no problem. Or if you get 7 charges in 3 seconds you can cast it again. Or maybe even have it gated by cooldown, but increase its damage with the number of charges it has.

Make it an advantage, not just another gate.

DremiistOct 1, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Kassadin was created long before my time at Riot, some benefits I can see to the charge system though:

It allows Kassadin to use his E significantly more often in team fights than some 1v1s, giving a champion with strong duelist power a boost elsewhere

It modifies how favorable some match ups are for Kassadin, giving him an edge against certain opponents and therefore adding a bit of extra depth to the decision of when to pick him or not, without getting into hard counter territory.

It adds a small amount of extra decision making to both Kassadin's play and his lane opponent's (value of next spell cast changes slightly in some circumstances if it's the one that allows an E cast).

Now, if Kassadin were to be buffed, we certainly could remove that gate on his E, that would add power to him. Initial reaction personally though is that it's a mechanic that creates some optimization and adds a little bit of distinctiveness in some circumstances, so if we were to add power there would likely be more interesting ways to do so that created, rather than removed, gameplay.

I'm not gonna lie i'd love to see these change so i can jungle with Kassadin and be taken seriously I've been waiting since season 1 i tried and was unsuccessfully... I'll also like this to happen because now that kass has been tweaked I don't see a reason for it to exist anymore and it will help him mid lane because his early/mid game is below the average,if not the weakest.

the rework tuned him down a lot his E is not as strong as it used to be : he went from 280 to 180 damage at max rank he lost 100 damage on his E there's no more reason to have the charge system and I don't think playing with Kassadin numbers is a necessity he might end on the very strong edge only to be tuned down again also his early game is quite weak you're literally laning with 1 and an half spell mid lane vs heavy harasser and wave pushing he need force pulse to be ready as soon as possible.

I always hated the fact that even if it have 6 second cooldown it can take as long as 10-15 second to charge in a 1v1 situation,back then it was understandable kass could silence riftwalk had long range and huge burst, E had 300-280 and 8.0 to 7.0 ap ratio "no counterplay" it is not the same anymore it will never be the same scenario you tweaked him up to the point he's not potential ban anymore he's not a potential threat anymore not a priority either way and i see no reason anymore to have E charge system removed hell he'd be perfectly balanced. this is the first and last thing he need and he need it now you even admitted that it be favorable.

kassadin rely on all of his abilities he need them ready as soon as possible force pulse with no exception and i really want to jungle with him no lies, one try one chance is all i'm asking, you weren't there prior the time kassadin was added to the game but I know one thing for sure if you took the time to listen to our feedback then you're going to the right direction and you can make decision,it's about time someone listen to kassadins feedback. the balls is yours.

NahuiSep 28, 20159 votes

It's to also prevent jungle Kassadin. With his ult, Kassadin's ganks would simply bypass wards, kind of like Zac, but he would burst when ganking unlike Zac who's there for CC. You would just max his E in the jungle, get CDR, and burn down jungle camps and lanes alike. The charge system makes it so you're not wiping out the jungle.

UltîmaSep 28, 201516 votes

Ehhh that's a bit of a strange argument considering there are characters that have a huge amount of mobility, hard CC at their disposal (and in Rek'sai's case specifically, no resources to manage either) on top of fantastic waveclear and damage output. If anything, Kassadin jungle would be interesting to see.

I honestly feel like he's heading towards an eventual rework considering he's been in a perpetually unbalanced state since Season 1.

Rew711Sep 29, 20151 votes

I just thought of a stupid yet possible idea... why can't it just stack up power from spells up to 5 times? (Not gaining more power or slow than it does now, or maybe a tiny bit).

What if his E (still costing 80 mana and had a 8/7/6/5/4 second cool down) would deal 40/50/60/70/80 (+35% AP) slowing for only 0.5 seconds with no stacks, and each stack adds 8/12/16/20/24 (+7% AP) damage per stack (up to 5 times) and adds 0.1/0.125/0.15/0.175/0.2 seconds per stack. His max damage would go up to 80/110/140/170/200 (+70% AP) damage and 1/1.125/1.25/1.375/1.5 seconds at max.

CeridranSep 29, 20151 votes

[deleted]

Rew711Sep 29, 20151 votes

I played him as a MR tank, and it somehow worked but that was during the Tank meta so I'm not sure now.

FistOfSharkieshaSep 29, 20151 votes

You're better off with using DR Mundo if you want a tank that can go anywhere he wants, which is what I'd assume you'd use tank kassadin for. Otherwise there are far better mage tanks. Galio, Cho'gath, Vladamir, Swain, Ryze.

Rew711Sep 30, 20151 votes

lol, that was just for about 2 or 3 games. I use him for AP mage/assassin more since then.

Meeks011Sep 30, 20151 votes

I've played him AD in the jungle, and it's the only time I've done well with Kassadin. I build him similarly to AD Fizz but with a Gauntlet instead of Trinity Force because it's a great item on Kassadin and he has shit for CC.

DrakylonSep 29, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Captain Rand0,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EvAEUsE9,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2015-09-28T16:49:02.617+0000)

It's to also prevent jungle Kassadin. With his ult, Kassadin's ganks would simply bypass wards, kind of like Zac, but he would burst when ganking unlike Zac who's there for CC. You would just max his E in the jungle, get CDR, and burn down jungle camps and lanes alike. The charge system makes it so you're not wiping out the jungle.

That argument doesn't hold as much ground anymore. For one, Kassadin would need level 6 to even think about ganking, and he doesn't have any (health) sustain in the jungle other than Machete. Two, there are already quite a few champions that can bypass the common warding spots -- Rek'Sai, Lee Sin, J4 to a degree -- and not even Kassadin can bypass a completely warded river. Three, Kassadin would either have to wait about a minute for his ult stacks to wear off or spend a sizable chunk of his mana pool to even get into position if he wants to bypass wards; two jumps without waiting is already 150 mana, and the third would be 200, and Kass only has 767 base mana at level 6.

I think it's time to remove the charge system from Kassadin's E. Change the cooldown if it becomes an issue.

RogueWillSep 29, 20151 votes

There are quite a lot of champions that ganks pre 6 are awful. Warwick Diana Rengar yo name a few

Auz the RipperSep 29, 20152 votes

Eh, Rengar has a easy root and decent lane ganks, I wouldn't say his pre-6 ganks are awful

HawkefireSep 29, 20151 votes

Errr....you mean his little "hop" of an ult? There is no way he can bypass wards nearly to the extent that Zac can, the reason Zac can is because he can actually leap over very large tracks of unpassable terrain. Kassadin might be able to hop over a couple tiny walls (such as the edge of dragon pit)....but even then you can easily have those areas warded unlike the areas that Zac can hope from.

NahuiSep 29, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Errr....you mean his little "hop" of an ult? There is no way he can bypass wards nearly to the extent that Zac can, the reason Zac can is because he can actually leap over very large tracks of unpassable terrain. Kassadin might be able to hop over a couple tiny walls (such as the edge of dragon pit)....but even then you can easily have those areas warded unlike the areas that Zac can hope from.

This was back when his ult wasn't a hop.

StephenizgodSep 29, 20151 votes

Zac does a ton of damage though

MarsuIndaHouseSep 29, 20151 votes

Well it doesnt stop me, jungle kassa is hella fun.

TerntSep 28, 20157 votes

It's never a problem late game. I have played a bit of Kassadin and I find it's only an issue early. It sucks when nobody is really casting anything, so it feels like it takes forever.

luckmallorySep 28, 20154 votes

It was core to build CDR when kassadin didn't have the charge system, so imagine kassadin perma chasing you with his ult and perma slowing you by 90%

TurquoiseYoshiSep 28, 20154 votes

It's so that he's a mage counter. Except that his E does basically nothing compared to non-mage counter champion's spells. So it probably needs a power buff if Riot wants to keep him as a mage counter (AKA higher/longer slow & higher damage).

Olath QuortekSep 29, 20154 votes

I've always thought this was silly. I think an easy way to make it more interesting is to give you the option to cast it regardless of current stacks and then just adjust the damage and slow%/duration based on how many stacks.

JedenVojakSep 29, 20154 votes

Back when the slow was 50% and actually lasted for 3 seconds I could see it being worth something, but in its current state his E is not good enough to require stacks - it does as much damage as his Q or E and has a worthless 1 second slow.

Shroom JunkieSep 28, 20153 votes

I play Kass a lot and its so annoying to have to charge up before I go kill someone as Kass, especially when I'm on a time like someone's low and might b soon or my jungler is about to gank. +1

Hay5eedSep 28, 20153 votes

I'd rather have it so that, the more charges he has, the greater the slow and the greater the damage (max 4). That way you would still keep the charge system that would encourage you not to spam it, but you also get to use it when you need to during trades and to escape ganks etc.

AxestsSep 29, 20152 votes

while i believe kassadin would definitly need his e to be tweaked i agree that the charge gate on the ability is both awkward and an anti-fun mechanic

LOL SpammerSep 29, 20152 votes

Ah but have you played kass on ARAM. Maxing e is where it is at.

FistOfSharkieshaSep 29, 20152 votes

True, on Aram he can be okay especially with a good team comp. Still even if he were buffed or this charge system was removed, he'd still be outclassed in both normal and ARAM mode.

pripustasSep 28, 20151 votes

It's just that Riot would rather rework champions that aren't in extreme need of change, than work on champions who need attention (buffs/nerfs)

TurquoiseYoshiSep 28, 20153 votes

Different teams.