Don't nerf lane Kayle just to nerf JG Kayle.

FistOfSharkiesha·Aug 15, 2015·67 votes·3,680 views

Kayle has slowly creeped back into lane with her recent E buff, and now the PBE shows a nerf incoming to her base AD because her sated JG is insane. This is going to make last hitting and early dueling a lot harder for lane Kayle, while JG Kayle will still just afk farm, sate, and 1v5 as if nothing changed.

Can we not just make her attacks against monsters deal 5 less damage or something? Lane Kayle is pretty refreshing considering AP mids in solo que basically boils down to the same 10 champions. Her laning is in a really good spot for once and I would love to keep it that way.

Honestly sated devourer needs to be nerfed, and that nerf alone would put Kayle in a perfect state as both a laner and a jungler. I don't care what you do, just please don't give Kayle a flat nerf just because her jungling needs to be toned down.

72 Comments

FantasySniperAug 15, 201512 votes

I'm going to copy-paste what I replied in a similar thread:

{quoted}

[Jungle Kayle] She can't clear as fast. Meaning less gold for her, so her scaling will be reduced. Meaning Devourer will be purchased later, she will be Sated later, and she'll be less capable of killing not only because of the damage nerf, but also because she loses more health from clears.

Meanwhile Laning Kayle only has to worry about its small effect on her kill potential.

Also, people seem to be under the impression that her laning isn't strong, while it actually is despite being on the back end of popularity.

A bad MalzaharAug 15, 20153 votes

Her laning sucks vs anyone that is not Zed or Udyr.

A Miss FortuneAug 15, 20152 votes

Her laning isn't that strong, It's not the weakest in the game but there's so many ways to shut her down which I think is fair to prevent her from reaching her late game hypercarry status.

FistOfSharkieshaAug 15, 20154 votes

The issue is that she is stuck in no-man's land between mage and fighter. Mages can burst her down or bait her ultimate and back off. It takes her 10 auto attacks just to get close to the damage of other mages such as Malzahar and Annie.

Fighters on the other hand can build some MR or a frozen heart if she's built like an ADC and rip her face off. She counters a few champions hard like Darius, but other than that she's rarely if ever seen in lane.

She's not popular, and not on par with other mid/top laners. I think she's in a good spot right now but she won't be if this nerf happens. 10% of her base AD is a huge nerf, especially considering that's when she struggles to last hit the most and that's where the largest power discrepancy is. Once that Fizz can all in her, or that Annie can burst her down before she can react, she can't compete. She NEEDS that early game AD.

TworieAug 15, 20157 votes

Jungle Kayle isn't even that OP... in fact, she's kinda easy to shutdown in her own jungle and it's easy to keep her from building her devourer stacks Like this one time I counter-jungled a Kayle player so hard that she was stuck at 15 devourer stacks at 40 minutes into the game while I already had a sated devourer

what really needs to be nerfed is WW he's so crazy OP with Wits end, Nashors, and his passive Kayle really is just a poor man's warwick when it comes to doing magic damage with auto attacks

Slamurai JackAug 15, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Jungle Kayle isn't even that OP... in fact, she's kinda easy to shutdown in her own jungle and it's easy to keep her from building her devourer stacks Like this one time I counter-jungled a Kayle player so hard that she was stuck at 15 devourer stacks at 40 minutes into the game while I already had a sated devourer

what really needs to be nerfed is WW he's so crazy OP with Wits end, Nashors, and his passive Kayle really is just a poor man's warwick when it comes to doing magic damage with auto attacks

When I look at Champion.gg and see Kayle has very high win rates against champs like Shyvana, Udyr, Shaco, Nocturne, Nidalee, and Lee Sin, that tells me that the League community needs to step up their counterjungling game. I've played the Shyvana vs. Kayle jungle matchup; Kayle literally cannot farm unless I decide to let her do so or my lanes are getting destroyed. Kayle is extremely weak early game and her clears leave her very low, easy prey for any jungler that likes to invade. Just because people don't punish this weakness nearly enough doesn't mean Kayle Jungle is OP.

UltraSceptileAug 15, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Evnf216g,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2015-08-15T13:16:45.209+0000)

When I look at Champion.gg and see Kayle has very high win rates against champs like Shyvana, Udyr, Shaco, Nocturne, Nidalee, and Lee Sin, that tells me that the League community needs to step up their counterjungling game. I've played the Shyvana vs. Kayle jungle matchup; Kayle literally cannot farm unless I decide to let her do so or my lanes are getting destroyed. Kayle is extremely weak early game and her clears leave her very low, easy prey for any jungler that likes to invade. Just because people don't punish this weakness nearly enough doesn't mean Kayle Jungle is OP.

That's because shyvana is even more of a broken devourer jungler than Kayle. Kayle is retardedly broken after sated-two shots everything.

Slamurai JackAug 15, 20159 votes

{quoted}

That's because shyvana is even more of a broken devourer jungler than Kayle. Kayle is retardedly broken after sated-two shots everything.

Anyone who thinks that Sated is what made Shyvana such a strong jungler clearly didn't play Shyvana jungle before Sated.

EvilRabbittAug 15, 20151 votes

Full ad shy ftw

Axis the DragonAug 15, 20151 votes

All you really need is Bork -> Full tank, honestly, and you still shred people to death

SinlaireAug 16, 20151 votes

change out an MR item for Wits End and the mixed true damage, physical, and magical damage is sick.

wits on hits crushes MR, burnout shreds, flame breaths torches, BoTRK destroys, and Shyvana rampages.

it's beautiful.

Axis the DragonAug 16, 20151 votes

Wit's End is included in my "full tank" =P at least, for Shyvana

LynxonyxAug 15, 20154 votes

So nerfing Kayle, but Xin, Shyv, WW, Yi, and Udyr... who are all stronger with sated, go untouched.

Every day, riot seems more and more out of touch with what the game needs.

FistOfSharkieshaAug 15, 20151 votes

Blanket nerfing Kayle and ruining her laning at that.

WeiseAzirAug 16, 20151 votes

Riot know this tactic boosts sales.

more $$$ = more viability and stronger kit- angry reddit mob / 2

simple math

KeevalroyAug 15, 20154 votes

I have the solution. Get rid of devourer. Period. Done, end of story - delete it. How many times does Riot have to rework it to realize it will never be balanced?

FistOfSharkieshaAug 15, 20154 votes

Again, that's preferable but look at Kassadin. They nerfed his whole kit before they actually nerfed what was problematic but they never un-nerfed the first unnecessary changes. That's what I fear will happen with Kayle. They will nerf her, nerf sated devourer 5 patches later, then forget about her. She'll be a worthless jungler and laner. Look at Riot's balancing decisions, they don't make rational choices.

KeevalroyAug 15, 20154 votes

Look at Riot's balancing decisions, they don't make rational choices.

In before white knights and Reddit zombies flock to defend Mother Goose.

TurquoiseYoshiAug 16, 20152 votes

I don't think you understand how inb4 works. You don't say "In before", you say "inb4".

KeevalroyAug 16, 20152 votes

I'm spelling everything out. It really doesn't matter.

Ariel the CruelAug 16, 20151 votes

Some people just get too hung up on memes.

Shadow GilgameshAug 15, 20153 votes

honestly they could just not nerf kayle at all and get rid of yet another failed jungle farming item. Feral Flare was bad, release devourer was bad, sated devourer is bad.

ShadowParkerAug 16, 20151 votes

Although I do think it's a pretty crazy item. I think the reason it hasn't been nerfed is because it pushes a lot of junglers back into viability.

As well as the fact that in higher elo play it takes much much longer to get due to counter junging that in the long run it isn't always worth it.

DooplisAug 15, 20153 votes

I completely agree with Tworie. I have no idea why everyone considers her so overpowered. Her early clear is terrible and she can be easily shut down all you have to do is invade her with a early pressuring jungler or one that can just duel she can't do anything about it she'll either try to fight you and die or have to leave and can't farm. You don't have to kill her just invading her and putting pressure delays her devourer so she'll never get to the point where most people consider her overpowered. Like yeah she does a lot of damage if she gets sated and some items, but it's super easy to avoid that.

FistOfSharkieshaAug 15, 20153 votes

I completely agree. Her early ganks are pathetic, she's easy to counterjungle, and there's 13-15 minutes minimum where she's practically useless and not helping with objectives because she's farming. Unfortunately newbs can't figure this out so they play passive or drag out games to the point that she can 1v5.

foinhasAug 16, 20153 votes

Every single video i've seen of kayle devourer being too stronk all have:

no counterjungle overextended laners who insist in farming with 200hp no deep jungle ward fed kayle (4+ kills) at 15 min going after kayle ONE PLAYER AT A TIME...

I wonder if any of those things i said above have counter...

Slamurai JackAug 16, 20152 votes

It's amazing how OP Sated Devourer seems on Yi, Kayle, or Shyvana when you feed them a bunch of kills before they even get the item. It's almost as if they're OP because you're a baddie and not because of the item.

Lady HammerlockAug 16, 20153 votes

i have an idea on removing her completely (jg kayle) make her passive and e ON ATTACK effects instead of on hit #wouldbeabignerf

maikokkAug 16, 20151 votes

i dont think you understand how on attack works.

Lady HammerlockAug 16, 20151 votes

i guess i don't can you explain because idk what it means anymore

maikokkAug 16, 20151 votes

kayles ability IS an on attack effect (erroneously documented as an on hit effect)

an on attack effect happens when you attack, an on hit effect happens when the attack hits

the damage from righteous fury is not negated by blinds, blocks, or yasuos windwall

in the case of the wind-wall it is because kayle has no projectile. in the case of blinds and jax's block its because the effect IS AN ON ATTACK SPELL which is applied after the attacks windup, instead of when the attack hits (which in the case of a non-projectile attack is actually the same moment to the naked eye)

also noteworthy is that on hit effects do not apply spell effects (kayles righteous fury does)

sated devours passive doesn't actually apply on hit effects, it creates a new attack which has no AD, much like runaans creates new attacks that have 50% AD. It applies on hit effect by nature, because it IS an attack. this is why kayles E applies to both runaans and stated.

the reason ruunans/sated doesnt apply lulu's pixie, but it does apply kayles righteous fury, is because lulu does not perform pixie's attack, much like the champion does not perform the runaans bolt or perform sated passive attack. effects like this function concurrently to the champions attack (actually being activated slightly before the windup animation ends, during the projectile creation phase, and applying on attack/on hit effects afterwards)

Slamurai JackAug 16, 20153 votes

Riot is going to nerf Kayle, and if they're going to nerf her, I want them to do it exactly as they're doing it. 5 AD nothing compared to when they cut her E ratio in half, cut her AS per level, and increased her ult CD by 20 at all ranks, all in 1 patch.

ShockforceAug 16, 20153 votes

Or they could tone down Devourer's by 5 damage.

._.

Ariel the CruelAug 16, 20153 votes

Once apon a time. . . There was a champion name Shyvana who could jungle or lane/ Her jungle was considered too strong. But her lane strength was deem healthy. Shyvana Had bonus damage on jungle camps. In order to nerf her jungle power, they reduced her base damage. Bonus damage to jungle monsters stayed the same. The change had no meaningful impact on her jungle, but weakened her trades in lane.

Once upon a time, there was a champion named Lulu. She was designed to be a bot lane slave. One day, she got tired of the slave life and decided to take a solo lane. But her solo lane power was too oppressive. To weaken her solo lane oppression, her Support aspects and utility were nerfed. Her solo power was minimally affected and she continued to be hated by other solo laners.

Moral of the story: Nerfing isn't a precise operation. Sometimes if just takes a blind man with a chainsaw to get the job done.

Slamurai JackAug 16, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Evnf216g,comment-id=000f,timestamp=2015-08-16T08:07:43.438+0000)

Once apon a time. . . There was a champion name Shyvana who could jungle or lane/ Her jungle was considered too strong. But her lane strength was deem healthy. Shyvana Had bonus damage on jungle camps. In order to nerf her jungle power, they reduced her base damage. Bonus damage to jungle monsters stayed the same. The change had no meaningful impact on her jungle, but weakened her trades in lane.

If only balancing a champion was a simple as saying they're too strong and just hitting their numbers. But Riot has never balanced champions that way unless they're so overpowered that Riot isn't sure what they even want the champion to be. The problem with Shyvana jungle wasn't simply that she was too strong in the jungle, but that her AOE damage and dueling power in the early and mid game was too high. This was true for both jungle and top lane Shyvana, it's just that it benefitted jungle Shyvana far more because jungle Shyvana is just the ideal way to play her at the moment.

Sure, they could have removed her W damage bonus to monsters in an attempt to nerf jungle Shyv without hurting top lane Shyv, but that would require them to admit that giving her that bonus damage a few patches before was a mistake and it wouldn't solve her core problem anyway: her dueling power was simply too good in the early and mid game. The problem was never that she famed the jungle too fast and nerfing that aspect of her doesn't make sense when Riot has made it clear that being an extremely strong jungler farmer is part of her core identity. It sucks that top lane Shyv had to get hit, but it's still better than balancing Jungle Shyv improperly just to support a playstyle that was dying out anyway.

Mayor StubbsAug 15, 20152 votes

I had seen a suggestion to make sated only affect melee. As far as I know this would really only get rid of Kayle jungle (And the uncommon Vayne jungle) so it wouldn't affect anyone else and would push her back into being a laner without actually nerfing her lane in any way.

ZhuganAug 15, 20151 votes

Kindly, I am always happy to see Kayle nerfed because her ulti makes me want to kill puppies. A long range, 2-3 second, point and click invulnerability has got to be one of the worst ideas that Riot ever implemented.

Spizzle9000Aug 15, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Kindly, I am always happy to see Kayle nerfed because her ulti makes me want to kill puppies. A long range, 2-3 second, point and click invulnerability has got to be one of the worst ideas that Riot ever implemented.

Um. . . It's no worse than %max health true damage.

ZhuganAug 15, 20151 votes

I would argue that both mechanics never should have been added. So... Your point?

Both are stupid mechanics.

Spizzle9000Aug 16, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I would argue that both mechanics never should have been added. So... Your point?

Both are stupid mechanics.

Good point. Upvoted.

TurquoiseYoshiAug 16, 20151 votes

I would say it's far worse. You can pop it on a carry and then that carry gets a free 2-3 seconds to unload all of their DPS from inside of the full enemy team. %max health true damage is at least single-target in every occurrence. Imagine a Jinx or Azir or Viktor or Annie or Trist with a Kayle ult onto them while they stand on top of you and burst you down.

WeiseAzirAug 16, 20152 votes

save your cc for her ult. boom

100% reason why I lose as kayle

maikokkAug 16, 20151 votes

honestly, if they save their cc for your ult, you shouldnt be needeng to ult lol.

Doctor JarvisAug 15, 20154 votes

You forgot no cost, and its STILL extremely underwhelming when you ult your carry just to have them stunned

maikokkAug 16, 20152 votes

if you have to point and click kayles ult you are doing it wrong. ALT+R noob. you should always ult the carry, which is yourself.

ZhuganAug 17, 20151 votes

I have seen mid laners, ADCs, and top laners who have been carrying harder than Kayles and needed the ult more.

maikokkAug 17, 20151 votes

i was making an exaggeration in somewhat of a parody... but its mostly true. even if someone else is carrying harder than you... its hard to know how they will respond when you ult them at the perfect time. if you lose dps because you ult someone who runs from the fight anyways, you lose the fight.

THESuperStuntManAug 15, 20151 votes

Unfortunately, as much as I prefer they don't nerf lane Kayle because of jungle Kayle they actually do that quite a bit, so they won't be reverting it. Same thing happened to Elise, Kha'Zix, and Lee Sin.

TurquoiseYoshiAug 16, 20152 votes

Elise and Lee Sin can lane? I don't think I've really seen all that much of either. In any case, this is about how Devourer is what needs to be nerfed rather than Kayle, who is powerful due to Devourer. Elise and Lee Sin were nerfed overall because they were powerful in their main role just because of their individual strengths. If a champion is not individually powerful with a common build set, then they do not need a nerf. If a champion, as well as everyone else who builds an item, is powerful, then the item needs a nerf.

FistOfSharkieshaAug 16, 20152 votes

They used to be able to. They're basically the anti-kayle. Their laning was strong so they were toned down and now reside in the jungle. This nerf will just keep Kayle out of lane and in the jungle for 15 more seconds before sating.