Yasuo, Vayne and Many Others Aren't Necessarily Unbalanced, Just Toxic To Play Against

ArnoldSchwarzens··65 votes·3,895 views

One thing that I noticed about the boards is that the champions you can see above ALWAYS get mentioned again and again. While it kind of did make sense back when Yasuo was insane and it kind of makes sense now when you look at Vayne's current 53% winrate, the extent of how much attention they get on the boards is just absurd.

Yasuo for example has gotten to the point where he is in a relatively balanced spot with an average winrate, yet people still make a lot of posts about how he is cancer and he still is the subject of many memes.

I think with Vayne it'll be pretty much the same. Once she gets nerfed into a balanced spot again I think she will still get a lot of attention on the boards just because people hate her so much.

If you look at champions like Zac on the other hand, who had an above average winrate for much longer than Vayne and Yasuo did, you will find relatively few posts on the boards on how he is somewhat over the top atm, just because you rather have him on your or on the enemy team than you'd like to have a Vayne or a Yasuo.

I think the problem of these kind of champions is not really that they're unbalancable or that they are somehow overpowered 24/7, I think it's just the fact that they are really unfun to play with and against.

And while keeping them in line from a balancing standpoint is achievable as Yasuo's patch and win rate history shows, I think the toxicity aspect is much more harder to deal with.

You can't just change their kit to be less toxic without either nerfing them too hard or taking away their identity. For example, people like to say that Yasuo's windwall is bullshit but just straight out nerfing it wouldn't make sense since Yasuo is in a relatively good spot atm and removing it and replacing it by something else can't be done either because his wind wall is just a part of his kit and a crucial part of what makes Yasuo Yasuo.

I'm kind of sick of Yasuo and Vayne being on the front page everyday and infesting the gameplay boards like the cancer they are.

As for the memes though, keep them coming, they are kinda funny.

65 Comments

BeatzBoyFTW23 votes

Whenever I lane against a Yasuo, I just wish for once he just mind his own business & cs instead of running up to my face just to QQEQQEQQEEQEEQE the fuck out of me. Plus I hate the fact that he's mana-less for doing this annoying nonsense.

Spicy Rice1 votes

I would do that, but between your jungler camping me, and you doing aoe damage to my minions, I feel like you need to feel my frustration

Leetri1 votes

I mean that's how the game is played. When I'm playing Viktor you can bet I will take any opportunity I can to harass you down and force you to leave lane so I can roam and help other lanes. When I'm playing Twitch I'll constantly poke you between taking CS and make you scared of CSing. When I'm playing Shen I'll take any trade I can because I know I'll win the trades with my kit. If you're just AFK farming you're missing all the opportunities and you're allowing the enemy to CS and become stronger.

Zedex3 votes

As a Yasuo player, I can say that if I just sit back and let you farm, I run the risk of you being useful to your team. Generally you don't want that when you're playing Yasuo, so either try and stomp your opponent when you can to deny them, or just afk farm because you're against cheese laners like Annie.

Wolfram Oxford1 votes

Viktor probably one of the most annoying to face as Yasuo, but if you happen to face on just have your team camp the fuck out of him and make him cry for picking such a champion, he is so easy to gank lol.

Astôlfo18 votes

Shhh, stop being reasonable, the QQers and whiny criers hate that sort of thing.

GULAG 4 U2 votes

Y shuld i git gud when i can qq pls

/s

Oglaf14 votes

Except that Yasou's kit is blatantly and obviously overloaded which is why he is overpowered.

No Champ should be able to isnta-gib an enemy with their Ultimate without them having any chance to fight back. Once he hits level 6, you're forced under your turret where he can still gib you at his leisure.

His double crit freebie is imbalanced.

His 50% armour penetration on Ultimate is imbalanced.

Deal with it.

Legacy Hydralpha4 votes

The ultimate blink could be considered a little strong, but it's balance-able.

His modified crits are still a bit strong, but as before: balance-able.

The 50% Armour Pen applies to bonus armour, shame that's the majority of armour that champions get. Maybe a switch to lethality will prove better.

Yasuo isn't the strongest champion, but he still needs fine-tuning and he is toxic to fight.

EndlessSorcerer16 votes

Honestly, I'd be fine with him if they just removed some unnecessary power from his kit. For example:

  • Windwall blocking projectiles from all directions when cast before it even appears
  • His ultimate placing him outside of towers if at all possible
  • The duration he can hold onto his Q3 knock-up is probably a little too long

Honestly, I'm not even sure why the first two are a thing.

Desolas Arterius1 votes

I think 1 is an animation issue. Directions are fine since the wall can't move unlike Braum's, but I think the blocking before you can even see it is probably a bug/animation error. Or could be a lag issue since it's so fast that it can look invisible.

2 is so he doesn't get an extra hit of damage using his dash through you to get away from the tower after an ult. Imagine if he ulted you, landed between you and your tower, dashed through you doing damage, and then go away. Having him land away from the towers prevents him from doing careless dashes and forces him to play a bit smart about grabbing that extra damage. Also allows you to run away easier since you don't have him blocking your path to get under the tower or get to your team.

I don't think 3 is too bad. It's a fairly slow moving ability so side stepping is easy once you see it's ready since a good Yas will always use it rather than let it decay.

If anything, I think the thing Riot could look into is just the amount of up-time enemies have while they're being ulted by Yas. It can be very easily abused if you have a knockup team. Granted, it makes those knockup champs see more play when paired with a Yas, but the juggle potential is really crazy and can feel worse than being silenced since you can't do anything to get out. But perhaps that's an issue with the knock-up ability and airborne ability and not so much the champion.

Just my thoughts though.

EndlessSorcerer6 votes

[1] isn't actually an animation issue. Windwall spawns inside of his model and takes effect immediately, so it will block anything about to hit him when cast. This occurs even before Windwall hits the ground.

When Yasuo managed to block a projectile by throwing his Windwall in the direct opposite direction, it can be rather annoying.

[2] was specifically introduced to prevent Yasuo from taking tower-shots. It is basically a safety net for players who would previous ult into tower range and be hit by it due to their poor judgement.

Last Breath will attempt to position Yasuo outside the range of a nearby enemy turret if he initiates the ability on an enemy standing close to one.


[3] is less of an issue, but still noticeable. While the skillshot is slow, that doesn't help much when he can just EQ you for a guaranteed knock-up.

Desolas Arterius1 votes

1: I actually didn't know that about the windwall. Thanks for that info :) Does seem like an issue so I can agree with that. I wonder if there are any other champions out there that have casts that "start" inside of them similar to him. Interesting to think about.

2: I don't think it's entirely that big of an issue even if it's meant for being a "safety net". Mostly because Yas could get extra damage before dashing away even if he takes a tower shot (which if he has his shield up it doesn't really matter at that point). Whereas if he lands behind an enemy, he can't dash in for extra EQ combo unless he wants to be caught between the enemy and a turret since he can't dash through the enemy again. I'm looking at this more as a damage creep potential rather than a safety net though. I do get what you mean that it prevents mistakes of ulting just barely within the towers range, but considering the damage output a good Yas can do with R, AA, and then get away with an EQ is a bit crazy.

3: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think casting Q during E creates a knockup. You have to finish the animation/CD after using EQ before you can use the empowered Q. Unless you meant something else?

EndlessSorcerer2 votes

Yasuo's shield will absorb tower damage if it is already proc'd, but tower damage won't actually trigger it.

Considering Yasuo would likely take two tower shoots during the duration of the ultimate (one hitting him during the animation, one after as he leaves), that is a lot of damage lost.

If you cast Q during E's dash, you will spin and deal damage (and apply the knockup if available) to units around you.

Example

Desolas Arterius1 votes

Well, considering I've seen Yas built more as a bruiser/fighter than an assassin, I think a shot or two isn't going to hurt him that badly if that were the case. Just my opinion though. The potential extra damage would outweigh the damage taken from the turret in that situation.


I'll be honest, I've actually never seen that pulled off before. Thanks for the vid!

EndlessSorcerer1 votes

It is less of an issue late-game. However, Yasuo generally needs to build offensive items early-game (i.e. Phantom Dancer, Infinity Edge) and it leaves him rather squishy.

Two tower-shots could easily be 200-300 extra damage taken by him during a fight, potentially killing him or evening out the trade.

Ruin Lance5 votes

if a kit is overloaded that doesn't mean it's overpowered.

Oglaf10 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ruin Lance,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KtYgIbvl,comment-id=00040002,timestamp=2016-11-21T21:41:06.320+0000)

if a kit is overloaded that doesn't mean it's overpowered.

It is when it is combined so perfectly as it is in Yasou; both all his passives and active abilities come together to create the perfect storm of cancer.

He's really just a victim of his own perfect design.

Like, he gets double critical hit value just because. That alone is ridiculous as a Passive, but he even gets a Shield thingy on top of it?

His Ultimate is already a team-fight changer with the ability to combo/kill the entire enemy team. That alone is a great ability, so why on earth does it also cut through 50% armour?!

NightmareAmazoX1 votes

Kennen counters Yasuo Is played in High Elo Is played in LCS Is ranged. Nuff Said. His kit is also perfectly combined, Everything works well. Just saying. That Yasuo isn't the only one with a kit like that.

PermabannedGaren3 votes

{quoted}

Except that Yasou's kit is blatantly and obviously overloaded which is why he is overpowered.

He's not overpowered at all, you're just bad.

No Champ should be able to isnta-gib an enemy with their Ultimate without them having any chance to fight back. Once he hits level 6, you're forced under your turret where he can still gib you at his leisure.

Yasuo's ultimate does a little over 200 damage at level six. Even an E>Q>AA>ult>AA won't instantly kill any champion at level six.

His double crit freebie is imbalanced.

Why? It's one of the few steroids that actually has a tradeoff built in. Master Yi gets bonus AD, attack speed, true damage, and a double hit auto steroid and doesn't have any tradeoff built into it.

His 50% armour penetration on Ultimate is imbalanced.

How would he deal with tanks without it? It's only bonus armour. It doesn't do much to squishies, it's just there so you can't ignore his damage by building tank without forcing him to build a LDR (an item that is pretty bad on sustained damage melee champions).

Deal with it.

The irony of course is that instead of manning up and learning to deal with Yasuo as he is, you'd prefer to bitch and whine on the boards until he is nerfed/reworked. Why don't you deal with it?

Oglaf2 votes

{quoted}

He's not overpowered at all, you're just bad.

Yasuo's ultimate does a little over 200 damage at level six. Even an E>Q>AA>ult>AA won't instantly kill any champion at level six.

Why? It's one of the few steroids that actually has a tradeoff built in. Master Yi gets bonus AD, attack speed, true damage, and a double hit auto steroid and doesn't have any tradeoff built into it.

How would he deal with tanks without it? It's only bonus armour. It doesn't do much to squishies, it's just there so you can't ignore his damage by building tank without forcing him to build a LDR (an item that is pretty bad on sustained damage melee champions).

The irony of course is that instead of manning up and learning to deal with Yasuo as he is, you'd prefer to bitch and whine on the boards until he is nerfed/reworked. Why don't you deal with it?

Yasou apologist.

Limrick1 votes

Okay, you're absolutely right on most of these, but 200 damage on top of a strong CC effect that can't be shortened by tenacity is extremely valuable at level 6. Nobody is tanky enough at that point for the damage to be negligable, and then you add the auto>Q>E that he does immediately after and it's a really strong combo.

HazyCloud79 votes

Which is quite frankly a lot worse. Ahri for example had a super high play rate and win rate for essentially the entire season but I've never felt she was unfair or anti fun to play against like Yasuo & Vayne are.

EROTIC RAID BOSS2 votes

lol id rather fight yasuo anyday, but I guess I'm the only one

TFBaam1 votes

same fffffffffuck ahri

OnanThaMan5 votes

isn't that the idea? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Veltox5 votes

You can't argue about Tumble+item 3087 and item 3031 being balanced. Paired on top with the unnecessary buffs for her tower taking potential she is simply batshit broken right now. Why we would still complain after nerfs?Her kit it's simply to much. We have a true damage ranged assassin duelist hypercarry with a lot of kitting potential,stealth and hard CC.

ArnoldSchwarzens2 votes

She wasn't really bursty enough to call her an assassin before they buffed her Q. Once they tone that down again, she'll be fine.

Veltox1 votes

Agreed but they will still complain for the reasons i stated. Also did i mention how well she can chase too?

The Ginger Ninga1 votes

Vayne has been able to chase well since she was made. It's always been part of what she did.

Leblancs Boob5 votes

I don't care how bad Yasuo is I'll keep banning him until playing against him doesn't make me want to rip my hair out in pure rage.

Divewing5 votes

It's because 9 times out of 10 the champions like Zac can be solved with number tweaking. Shit like Vayne and Yasuo need the balance team to bend over backwards trying to fix because numbers either don't fix the problem or fix it too much.

Fact is stuff like Zac have clear strengths and weakness, and very rarely can solo carry a game (probably going to need at least one other fed person), whereas Vayne and Yasuo are stuffed to the brim with obnoxious bullshit that's supposedly justified off some unrealistic impractical reasoning.

It's the difference between being able to outplay a champion and being forced to wait for them to make a mistake, and Vayne and Yasuo don't really get outplayed by anyone but themselves

Papa Slothy4 votes

I think his windwall should only last .5 seconds so it's used to negate a single spell and the duration that he can hold Q3 is too long

Requiemsfire3 votes

Not to mention those champions outright exploit champions who already have proper counterplay in their kit. Sion Yorick Shen,

Nameless Voice3 votes

Probably an unpopular opinion, but I generally don't mind it that much when champions are overpowered (unless it's really blatantly overpowered). They are a little bit stronger, okay. Fine. I have to play a bit better to overcome them, fine.

Champions who are simply no fun to play against, which remove my player agency and make me feel like there's nothing that I can do just because of the champions in question - I believe those are a much larger gameplay health problem than any mere balance issue could ever be.

only zhule3 votes

I kind of agree with OP. It is annoying to see thread after thread complaining about these champions. That said they have issues that really do need to be addressed.

Yasuo's abilities all seem super great but together they feel kind of oppressive. Free shield for moving, mana less, dash with no cooldown (but can't dash into same target repeatedly), long range knock up, VERY large range blink, 2X crit chance. I know i personally would love to see him lose the double crit chance, or at least tone it down so he can't cap it with two items... hell make the skill get stronger as he levels, so he only gets the 2X bonus around level 16. Hell there are even some "simple" ideas to work around Windwall. Stuff like making wide projectiles/ ultimates not be totally canceled if the tip of one corner touches the wall; make AOE based skills "detonate" against the wall instead of getting canceled.

I know my issue with Vayne is the "oops" 1/3+ of your health bar on a single auto attack, good thing i have a really low cooldown mini dash to make sure you don't get away.... and a strong disengage/CC encase someone tries to catch me.... and let's not forget my AD steroid, movement speed (towards enemies) steroid, and possible multi use invisibility of my ultimate.

Things i would love to see changed is a slight tweak to how some abilities interact with Yasuo's windwall. I'd love to see a charge limit on Yasuo's dashes (maybe 3). Finally i'd love to see his bonus crit get a bit of a tone down in the early game, maybe start at 1.25 times bonus, then get .25 more bonus at 6/11/16.

For Vayne i think they just need to reduce the bonus damage on her empowered AA, or make it so that the bonus damage can't crit (or at least crit's much less). I was always under the impression that you picked Vayne into a tanky enemy team, since her unique passive is so good at dealing with enemies that have large health bars. So it is very discomforting that she is doing large damage to squishy targets, while having tools to shred beefy ones, and has tools to disengage from fights rather easily.

JedenVojak2 votes

Players are not qualified to decide what champions are or aren't toxic.

As such, any player who refers to something in a game that way, unless they're also a dev, is an idiot.

Nameless Voice2 votes

Players are generally not qualified to make balance decisions, because they lack the necessary information and are generally biased towards the champions that they play.

However, players are eminently qualified to know what is and is not fun.

Players may not be qualified to give solutions, but they are certainly the best ones to raise problems.

JedenVojak1 votes

Yes but that has to be tempered with the realization that different people find different things fun.

To say a champion is toxic is not some light or simple thing - to be toxic by Riot's definition, a champion must be designed in such a way that their entire kit fundamentally leads to "not fun" for everyone up to and including the person playing the champion. This is not some trivially easy thing to discern, yet people will throw out "toxic" about any champion they find annoying or don't like.

Players are qualified to know that they find fun, but they are not in a position to decide what isn't fun for everyone else.

Nameless Voice1 votes

Yet when a champion is being banned in almost every game, then players are talking very clearly. They are saying that the majority of people hate games involving that champion.

You can't get much clearer than that.

JedenVojak1 votes

It only takes one person out of ten to ban a champion; so while a large number of bans are indicative of a large number of people not wanting to go against a champion usually dealing more with perceived power than raw unfunness, it is not proof of toxicity.

Though if it makes you feel better, I think Riot should remove bans from the game altogether.

Lovelle2 votes

The main issue with these kind of champions is that, when played competently, they are hard to punish for their mistakes. However, they can capitalize on your mistakes at almost any point unless you're playing a champion with a similar amount of mobility/tools. This leads to people being frustrated when they play against them, unless they typically play similar types of champions.

It wouldn't be an issue if every champion in the game had as many options as them.

Off Meta Evan2 votes

I think the issue is that yasuo and vayne are ALWAYS problems. it feels like they're ALWAYS meta or op or something. This applies more so to yasuo but vayne still fits. I remember like a season ago when literally the only 2 adc's i would see would be Vayne Draven and maybe the occasional Ezreal. When yas was released, he was op, when warlords came out, he was op, when frozen mallet PD was discovered, he was.... op. it feels like their kits are so volatile that you're working with fucking nitro glycerin and even the slightest changes will immediately make them stupid.

valve nerf pls2 votes

im sorry im did not undestand your post the only thing im see is this-->http://i.huffpost.com/gen/1871458/images/o-CRYING-BABY-facebook.jpg

[zombie-nunu-tears] [zombie-nunu-tears] [zombie-nunu-tears] [zombie-nunu-tears] OMG YASOU IS SOOOO OP AND VAYNEEE IS SOOO BOKEN WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA IM CRYING WEEEEEEEEEEEEE

ABSINTHEged1 votes

Vayne is currently critting for 70℅ of a squishy champions health on her first tumble auto. She can often two shot and pretty reliably 3 shot squishies. Toss in her knockback and she can duel most assassains with ease.

That's far from healthy.

9kPluzZ1 votes

{quoted}

She can often two shot and pretty reliably 3 shot squishies.

Draven? Jhin?? Caitlyn???

AtheosisX1 votes

Maybe it's just me but I really feel like the issue with Yasuo is having no resource to reign in his ability spamming. If he was made into an energy champ he'd become much healthier in my opinion.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Riot's only hesitant to rework them because they're popular; just ask Malicious Metal.

Unlucky471 votes

I post a lot about champions I personally think are problems just based on experience, and Lee sin and jhin are some of the most unbalanced ones out there. Lees early game pressure and ability to one shot people with only one or two damage items is ridiculous, and I don't even need to tell you about jhin. The problem is, that when you post negatively on these champions, all their mains downvote them. Game health doesnt mean anything as long as you can still one shot people as an adc with one item. Or a "bruiser".

Basically, there are worse champions out there. they're just never talked about or given attention because of their fanbases. You can't dare make a post about Graves LeeSin Darius Zac

without people showing up at your door with sharpened sticks

Vesemir1 votes

Pick Swain against Yasuo and laugh at his face.

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