Boards›Gameplay

Dear Riot. DONT listen to reddit.

Archenz··68 votes·5,913 views

Hey guys, as any of you may have seen. Reddit is FULL of "Juggernauts op balance team retarded" Because we all know "reddit knows balance"

Anyway, the reason Juggernauts are so powerful right now is very, very simple. League of Legends hasnt had Rock Paper Scissors in forever and people don't understand it.

Rock = Juggernauts Scissors = Mobile damage dealers (riven, yasuo, irelia, jax, zed, talon, ranged people with low cc etc) Paper = Kiters ( Velkoz, Anivia, Malzahar, Karma)

Juggernauts are MADE to counter the mobility meta. I don't know how many times I've played Darius and the enemy decides to pick an assassin mid and a riven or yasuo top. It makes sense that a low mobility champion would be able to 1v1 a riven or an assassin.

For the longest time, It's been Mobility craps on everyone, and the none mobile champions are left to rot.

Now however, league has a semblance of balance. In order to counter he Juggernauts you need high cc mid laners. Or teams that can dish out slows and disengage.

Enemy picks garen or Darius? Bust out the Janna support and velkoz mid.

Don't pick yasuo into a juggernaut, your countering yourself. That's like picking Galio vs Zed and wondering why you lost the lane.

You need to adjust your way of playing versus juggernauts, not just mindlessly rushing them like you would against an assassin.

Tl:dr Pick VAYNE

Edit: don't get me wrong, they might be a tad to strong. But don't nerf their damage or tankiness, nerf their movespeed.

Edit2: if boards had a controversial tag, this thread would be at the top of it. It's gone from 20 to 10 and then 30 xD

111 Comments

General Murica15 votes

Because we all know "reddit knows balance"

Compared to bronze and balance? Ye.

ps: ''just counterpick'' is bs.

IcyPepper10 votes

I think more balanced team compositions is a fine compromise, to be honest.

It's not counterpicking by lane, I'd say, but having a more balanced team comp in general. One problem I often see in the "tank meta" we had was that people who complained often picked a burst top laner with an assassin jungle. That... wasn't smart. I'm going to exaggerate here to make a point, so forgive me, but a team of five assassins or a team of five mages is going to have some clear weaknesses. Not that anyone would go that far, thank Jesus.

If you have a team without cc, you get pooped on by mobile champions. If you have a team without kiting potential, you get pooped on by juggernauts. If you have a team without a frontline, you get pooped on by assassins.

If a champion specifically is overpowered, then so be it. Riot should nerf that champion. But more variety in this game, and working around certain roles is fine imo. You have to build, play, or strategize around assassins, tanks, ADC's, etc, even supports at times, so I don't see much difference with juggernauts.

Just my two cents.

General Murica1 votes

{quoted}

If a champion specifically is overpowered, then so be it. Riot should nerf that champion. But more variety in this game, and working around certain roles is fine imo. You have to build, play, or strategize around assassins, tanks, ADC's, etc, even supports at times, so I don't see much difference with juggernauts.

If you dont see the difference you sure have some heavy bias.

Jugs remind me of pre-10 nerfs-katarina, if ya didnt have 5+ pnc stuns it was gg.

Sniper 05 votes

[{quoted}](name=General Murica,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KtQdv0i5,comment-id=000400000001,timestamp=2015-09-05T15:47:47.366+0000)

If you dont see the difference you sure have some heavy bias.

Jugs remind me of pre-10 nerfs-katarina, if ya didnt have 5+ pnc stuns it was gg.

Well you should be bringing a balanced team comp to the table anyways. If you saw a kata you should have picked accordingly. z.z;;

manbearswine1 votes

[{quoted}](name=General Murica,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KtQdv0i5,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-09-05T04:20:51.380+0000)

Compared to bronze and balance? Ye.

ps: ''just counterpick'' is bs.

These forums are reddiot 2.0 anyway.

MalzaharAnyLane10 votes

If you think Malzahar is a 'kiter' you really aren't playing Malzahar correctly.

You can have your cake and eat it too if you just stack HP. You only need to survive long enough to initiate or get your spell rotations off, you shouldn't be trying not to get hit with that kit, using yourself as bait is the whole point of the pool and skillshot.

For most games, RoA/Rylais/Liandrys/Deathcap are all you need with your boots and 6th item being optional. Add a void staff to melt a tank if CC isn't flying around and you need the extra damage.

Malzahar is a tank buster, not a kiter. When he's not busting tanks, he's zone control.

Angelo Nera7 votes

This is exactly the problem. it shouldnt work like that. you shouldnt HAVE to pick a champion to win the game. Then skill isnt even involved. When a champion is so strong, that you have to pick a counter to even give you a chance to win the game, that is over powered. Yes they should be a strong pick, but with a certain skill level, they should be able to be outplayed, even in a counter match up. But for example, Darius is immobile and kiteable, but his Q costs 30 mana, is on a 3.5 sec cd (with 20% cdr) and is now even easier to hit with the blade, because you can aim it with the charge time. Not to mention two seconds of a 90% slow, which will almost guarantee 5 stacks of his passive which give him bonus ad to execute someone. Basically if youre in range for a flash hook of darius your dead. regardless of how fed he is. And that leaves no counter play. Good on riot to remove the MS boost that the bleed gave him tho.

SEKAI16 votes

[{quoted}](name=Angelo Nera,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KtQdv0i5,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2015-09-05T05:24:52.354+0000)

This is exactly the problem. it shouldnt work like that. you shouldnt HAVE to pick a champion to win the game. Then skill isnt even involved. When a champion is so strong, that you have to pick a counter to even give you a chance to win the game, that is over powered. Yes they should be a strong pick, but with a certain skill level, they should be able to be outplayed, even in a counter match up. But for example, Darius is immobile and kiteable, but his Q costs 30 mana, is on a 3.5 sec cd (with 20% cdr) and is now even easier to hit with the blade, because you can aim it with the charge time. Not to mention two seconds of a 90% slow, which will almost guarantee 5 stacks of his passive which give him bonus ad to execute someone. Basically if youre in range for a flash hook of darius your dead. regardless of how fed he is. And that leaves no counter play. Good on riot to remove the MS boost that the bleed gave him tho.

Wrong. Picking champs for the situation is part of the skill, same as dealing with it when you're countered.

Even that famous game that is highly marketed and balanced to be skill based called Dark Souls still can't fully escape the rock-paper-scissors syndrome all games face (but at least it was better since it mostly only deals with 1v1s in PvP, unless the host is a wanker), as it's part of the fundamentals of gaming, even applicable in real life.

If you want a game where absolutely nothing matters, I shall point you to release Diablo 3, and you know what, it sucked big time.

Choosing is part of the fun, part of the challenge. If everyone is just meant to be a watered down version of each other like the vision of that designer who I shall not name here, it would only serve to destroy the game because nothing ever matters, and it would all come down to who has the fastest button presses, which there is already an established genre for that called Fighting Games (and even then, those games have a soft counter systems within different playstyles/toons). There is no need to come around to ruin what others find fun in MOBA/ARTS.

Games/matches should start in Champ Select, there is no dispute.

Archenz3 votes

That's actually pretty spot on.

The Rock Paper Scissor syndrome is actually pretty healthy for games, not to mention fun.

General Murica2 votes

{quoted}

That's actually pretty spot on.

The Rock Paper Scissor syndrome is actually pretty healthy for games, not to mention fun.

Eh no, RPS=healthy, but not if 1 rock requires 3 papers.

ks9163 votes

My problem with juggernaut's is its a pain for so many champions to lane vs them. People always say kite them but they are a bunch of melee tops who can't do shit other than just flat out sit under turret and farm which is just flat out unfun. Either riot should update some of the other melee tops so you can survive. The argument just kite them doesn't fly when I'm playing a melee top who has no tools to kite a fcking garen who gets a slow removal and a movespeed buff from his Q, not counting the phage/black cleaver passive.

Wanna tell me how melee tops adjust them without having to play under turret all game?

Archenz5 votes

Firstly, Darius is getting mana cost nerfs, his Q has way to low a mana cost. Its going up to 50 at max rank i believe.

Anywho here are some tips.

Garen: Garen has always been super frustrating, now hes not as frustrating before lvl 7, where he really picks up, he was always a huge early game bully. Darius: Don't fight him when he has 3 or more stacks on you, don't go for prolonged trades. Ask for ganks, hes slow with no mobility, so its easy to camp him since he pushes so much with q. Mord: Poke him early, which is his weakest, just focus on poking him down and making sure you dont get hit by his e, its easy to predict when he will use it. Dont go all in, and dont let him get the 3rd Q off.

Dont jsut scream OP, you have to adjust your way of playing against them. It will take time for people to adjust however.

ks9162 votes

My problem isn't adjusting to them in teamfights or using team comps that include kite like janna. My problem with them is in lane, there are other tops who are melee and not very mobile and they can't do much into a Garen or Darius during lane phase. I'm totally OK with them having more dmg than mobile champions as long as riot adjusts the other imbolie champions and helps other immobile tops. Let's face it after a few levels both Darius and garen get pretty strong and if your an imbolie melee into them you are fucked.

Grey Deaf Orthro4 votes

{quoted}

My problem isn't adjusting to them in teamfights or using team comps that include kite like janna. My problem with them is in lane, there are other tops who are melee and not very mobile and they can't do much into a Garen or Darius during lane phase. I'm totally OK with them having more dmg than mobile champions as long as riot adjusts the other imbolie champions and helps other immobile tops. Let's face it after a few levels both Darius and garen get pretty strong and if your an imbolie melee into them you are fucked.

You got Nasus who outscales Garen and ultimately ignores him in lane. You got Renekton who can win prolonged fights thanks to his Sustain. You got Jax who can bully inmobile champs and eat them late game. Rumble wins the shoving lane game. Even Mundo just sits there and forever heals and kites.

ks9162 votes

Do you play top much or any of the Champs u listed? Jax a bully? You pick garen or Darius into Jax to shut him down. Same for renekton, his worst match-ups include Darius and garen. Darius can't be bullied by renekton and garen is a bigger bully atm then renekton.

Nasus countered by Darius also. Garen has early bully potential into Nasus and should not die to a Nasus since Garen can always remove the wither.

Grey Deaf Orthro1 votes

{quoted}

Do you play top much or any of the Champs u listed? Jax a bully? You pick garen or Darius into Jax to shut him down. Same for renekton, his worst match-ups include Darius and garen. Darius can't be bullied by renekton and garen is a bigger bully atm then renekton.

Nasus countered by Darius also. Garen has early bully potential into Nasus and should not die to a Nasus since Garen can always remove the wither.

In the current state, Jax outscales Darius easily. And you can win trades since Jax specializes in short trades. Garen counters Jax, that is true. Renekton also loses to Garen early (this is not new), but can out trade Darius because has more damage early than Darius (except when Darius is in Noxian's might or whatever it is called now). Nasus benefits from Darius doing less damage to have a more solid lane, and obviously outscale him. Garen can bully Nasus early but not enough to deny farm because Garen lacks hard CC. Also, using Wither with Garen's Q off cooldown is misplaying really bad. If anything using it right when Garen uses hi Q takes a lot of power off him, specially since the new W.

ks9163 votes

I wouldn't say Jax outscales easily vs Darius ( http://champion.gg/champion/jax darius is a heavy counter, jax only wins 40%). Darius has much more sustain in lane, while Jax if he tries to go for short trades your gonna be oom pretty fast, where as Darius can heal/sustain with his short cd Q. Also for Jax to outscale it takes him quite a while since even after you both get 1 item Darius will win a trade (think Jax wins this once he has triforce, blade, and defensive item vs Darius) And as you said Garen already wrecks lane that lane.

As Renekton vs Darius, Renekton is also on the losing side of the match-up ( http://champion.gg/champion/Renekton Renek wins 43% vs Darius). (champion.gg goes by patches btw)

Sure I guess Nasus may survive and do well (Idk much about Nasus but he's generally pretty safe as he can sustain and outscale pretty much everyone).

(Edit: btw Nasus into Darius, Darius still wrecks him, Nasus wins only 40% of the time ( http://champion.gg/champion/Nasus ))

But the point Im trying to make is that there are other melee tops who also have low mobility like Garen and Darius. If riot was going to give the juggernaut treatment to Garen and Darius they should have given it to the other low mobile champions also because now they get put in a huge disadvantage when laning vs them since they are much stronger than before.

Im not upset about the fact they get to trade in low mobility for high damage, in fact I think it's the right approach. But I am upset about the fact it's much harder to lane the other low mobility tops into a Garen and Darius. Riot inadvertently hurt the other melee tops who don't have the luxury as everyone says to "kite them".

TLDR: Other melee tops got fcked by the juggernaut changes since they themselves didn't get changes/tools to deal with them in lane since you can't "kite them".

Grey Deaf Orthro1 votes

You made a pretty solid point and I stand corrected. But of course Riot couldn't buff all juggernauts at once. They gave them neat items, and overbuffed 4 of them (4 out of the, say, 30 juggernauts in existance), but the rest are in a pretty solid state, and after the balance rounds to the current overbuffed pricks, I'm sure we would be able to see that. Or see a deficiency that Riot might as well fix. Who knows. Maybe they want to Tank meta to end.

Too Ton5 votes

Squshies like anivia and velkoz will get destroyed if the enemy can dodge cc. L o l that's why no one uses them at least in lower elo

ForgiveColour5 votes

yeah its not like juggernaut + fiora + gp is kicking out every champ in their lane add in a team comp for them and they are the most broken thing in this world. in fact gp would still be op in dota rofl

TomA3X5 votes

Last time I played rock paper scissors, rock didn't beat both paper and scissors.

Archenz2 votes

Actually deserves to be top comment.

I'm not saying they are op or not. I think we should give people time to adjust.

Kiters crap on juggernauts tho. Especially high cc teams.

Orangesilk2 votes

Mordekaiser kinda breaks that logic you know?, he's supposed to be weak to kite or something.

Well, he's sporting 65% winrate in the lane where he's constantly against champions with both ranged attacks AND peel. (This is plat+ data from champion.gg)

The statistics start getting silly, Vayne (who is great at kiting and self peel) is listed as a counter, why, because his winrate when against a Vayne drops to a measly 58%.

Regardless of RPS, when something is broken, it's BROKEN.

DarthSpectrum5 votes

If Juggernaut only countered mobile assassins, then it would be fine.

I will tell you now that without a doubt, a item 3742 Garen will catch up to that Velkoz and decimate him. The same with Darius. He has high base MS, and his bleeds now procs item 3044. Put that with another item 3742, and you got Udyr speed Darius chasing you down.

Heck, Skarner even has MS boosts everywhere in his kit.

Juggernauts are not just screwing the assassins, they are screwing over everyone.

Even in higher ELOS, Juggernauts have someone of highest win rates. http://www.lolking.net/charts?region=na&type=champion-winrate&range=weekly&map=sr&queue=1x1&league=platinum

Pre-rework Garen and Darius already countered Yasuo and Riven. Now they are just a lot better in general. (Also, Galio counters Zed. Galio's bulwark can negate half of Zed's poke, and he can cast Idol of Durand whenever Zed used Death Mark to return even more damage back.)

The counter to Juggernauts aren't just champions who can kite. It is specifically ranged champions that can peel for themselves such as Vayne or Azir . These types of champions are infinitely more annoying than any assassin could be.

Silents4295 votes

Because we all know "reddit knows balance"

Oh my fucking god I don't think the boards are aware they do the exact same thing.

And the Juggernauts are overtuned, in the midst of a team fight at least, they require you to focus them, but survive through hella damage.

Archenz4 votes

They require you to "kite" them.

Dont just go all in like you usually do against tanks, and get in their face.

People just don't know how to go versus them

Silents4291 votes

And I get that, I know how to kite, I know how to be Garen as well, Kite me all you want you won't kill me before I kill you, and in the middle of the team fight investing this much effort into 1 character exposes you to the other 4 of his team members, Juggernauts are not overpowered they are just overtuned, this shouldn't honestly surprise people when they release 4 reworks along with multiple items and armor rebalanced all in 1 patch.

People also glide over the fact how monstrous they are against champions that can't kite, and assume the only champions having problems are just some crappy ADC mains.

Archenz2 votes

I guess youve never seen a good janna or lulu support. They dont let you play League in that game.

Your right, if the enemy is ashe without her ultimate and a good team, you will get her.

But if the enemy is Vayne, with a janna and a team with half a brain that knows "protect our adc" Then they wont be a problem.

Silents4292 votes

Stop misdirecting, this isn't about Janna, Lulu, Vayne or Ashe. You need to be seeing the bigger picture and how the juggernauts are as whole, this isn't just about them vs the enemy ADC.

Right now they have tanking capabilities of tanks while being able to deal damage on par with fighters, and this isn't how they are suppose to be. They are suppose to be durable and dangerous up close, and while this holds true, they are tanking far more then they should be able to.

DrNova4 votes

So a whole list if champs are no longer viable because of these few champs. How is that good balance?

Archenz6 votes

Because something has to counter assassins. Eventually more Juggernaut champs will come out like these as new champions and continue to counter assassins.

Do you just want nothing to counter assassins?n

DrNova6 votes

Don't put words in my mouth idiot. I didn't say anything about assassins. And normal tanks counter assassins just fine.

Archenz3 votes

Easy their little buddy. No need to insult.

Tanks bring much more cc than juggernauts normally. That's the difference between juggernauts and tanks.

Malicious Metal4 votes

As much as the Mordekaiser rework irks me the Juggernaut's the best thing the balance team had done in ages. Mobility should come with a tradeoff and these hulking killing machines fulfill that role of being very slow but deadly when up close. It's balanced in the sense that they have glaring weaknesses that can be abused. Heck, I just had a game where the enemy Janna kept me from getting anywhere near her ADC, rendering me useless but their Yasuo thought it would be wise to engage a Mordekaiser head on.

Didn't end well for him.

As I said, Juggernauts trade mobility for being durable and dangerous up close. It's a step in the right direction and riot should try to flesh out the other sub categories of champion classes. There aren't only Fighter, Tanks, Mages, Marksmen and Supports

ZephyrDrake4 votes

yet Darius has a 54.36% win rate, Mordekaiser has a stupid winrate for an ADC while being complete garbage in solo lanes, Garen has a 53% winrate and Skarner has a 55.55% winrate... there is reason why people are calling them OP. The entire thing of "kiting" them also falls flat the instant teamfights happen or they just buy item 3742 making them a lot harder to kite (and good luck kiting Skarner period)

ElegantDoge3 votes

Except the morde rework,i think the others became really good and deserves it.

Raid Boss Morde2 votes

Mordekaiser was honestly fine before this rework, he didn't really need one yet.

TurquoiseYoshi3 votes

Lemme fix the title for you

"Dear everyone. DON'T go on Reddit."

Bârd1 votes

Reddit is a fun place; I recommend it.

Just don't use the League subreddit for general balance decisions.

Bârd3 votes

Reddit knows balance. *the patch DFG got removed OMG BUFF FIZZ SOOOOOOOOOO WEAK RIGHT NOW

*ad fizz becomes cancer for several patches

Devack The Holy2 votes

Yes, because Fizz REALLY needed that 20% damage amp...

Riot, I'm seriously questioning your balance decisions this season...

DogIsGod2 votes

[deleted]

Bulletproof Car1 votes

{quoted}

You shouldn't be forced to counterpick in order to win a game. I think reddit knowns better than these silver balance ideas lmao.

counterpicking is a strat

DogIsGod2 votes

So a Bronze V is telling me how the game works. Cool Cool. Counter picking is a strategy, but you shouldn't lose from champ select. Then what's the point of even being skillful?

Bulletproof Car1 votes

{quoted}

So a Bronze V is telling me how the game works. Cool Cool. Counter picking is a strategy, but you shouldn't lose from champ select. Then what's the point of even being skillful?

so you have a higher elo just cause i dont play ranked doesnt mean your better than me

Mecha MaIphite2 votes

No, rock = Malphite.

OverpoweredSoap2 votes

Didn't Reddit have a huge thread saying Garen would be destroyed by his changes?

Archenz2 votes

Reddit knows balance

Bulletproof Car1 votes

{quoted}

Reddit knows balance

LOL no they dont

Biffolo2 votes

Last time reddit balanced we got release skarner. No thanks.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by Archenz

Most people forget WHY Skarner,Garen,Darius were op on release.
Gameplay148 comments
222
votes
How I feel when my west coast friends complain about getting 70-80 ping.
Memes & Games118 comments
192
votes
Ekko. What a Hero.
Story, Art, & Sound137 comments
175
votes
How you feel when you win those 50 minute games.
Gameplay94 comments
128
votes
Skarners "Crystal Spire" should be a unique item to Skarner that allows him to place it
Gameplay36 comments
115
votes
Hi, now that the meta has shifted. Can we the nerfs reverted?
Gameplay46 comments
77
votes