Most people forget WHY Skarner,Garen,Darius were op on release.

Archenz·Oct 25, 2015·222 votes·8,160 views

THEY DID LISTEN TO FEED BACK.

The entire boards was complaining about how weak, gutted, pathetic the new reworks made their champions. (I would know, I asked for Skarner buffs. Sorry)

And Repetoir(BestRioterWorlds) listened and buffed the champs to hell.

Skarner at release on the PBE was perfectly balanced, and Garen was slowed by 25% when moving to enemy champs, which kept him balanced as well. Same with darius, we just complained so much they actually listened. You all forget you had a part in it as well, and you pin all the blame on Riot, which just makes them want to listen to us less.

Don't go blaming only rioters for the garen,skarner and darius fiasco, it was OUR fault as well.

(Not including mord cause the rioter who made him made no changes at all from the pbe feedback)

148 Comments

MordepoolOct 25, 201548 votes

I came into this thread with righteous Mordekaiser driven fury. But instead I Found an accurate account of the PBE pre 5.16.

Also the reason CertainlyT and PBE argued was entirely on the direction of the Rework.

Most pbe testers say buff x. Cause of y.

Morde players were saying your direction and.designs are lazy how about you try to fix his feast and famine, binary kit. Instead of make Worse

WheatloafOct 26, 20152 votes

The problem was that the scope of these changes wasn't enough to cover a full overhaul, and he's still up for one in the future. CertainlyT did what he could with what he had. Could he have presented it better? Yeah. Was it worth it to make these changes? It's hard to tell, but public opinion says not really. Hopefully they continue to take the lessons they learn from these experiences to heart. Not much else we can do on our end (though the Mordekaiser community has been making solid attempts at discussion, which I think they should continue as long as they can).

MordepoolOct 26, 20155 votes

{quoted}

The problem was that the scope of these changes wasn't enough to cover a full overhaul, and he's still up for one in the future. CertainlyT did what he could with what he had. Could he have presented it better? Yeah. Was it worth it to make these changes? It's hard to tell, but public opinion says not really. Hopefully they continue to take the lessons they learn from these experiences to heart. Not much else we can do on our end (though the Mordekaiser community has been making solid attempts at discussion, which I think they should continue as long as they can).

The direction of the changes alone was enough to warrant a full relaunch. They could have handled the Rework with respect. But instead the Mordekaiser Rework will be forever known as half ass'd. Cause that's how it came across

MordepoolOct 26, 20152 votes

{quoted}

The direction of the changes alone was enough to warrant a full relaunch. They could have handled the Rework with respect. But instead the Mordekaiser Rework will be forever known as half ass'd Cause that's how it came across

redniwediSOct 25, 201531 votes

Stuff like this still annoys me. I could handle Garen just fine after the juggernaut update went in. People didn't want to learn, and so they complained until he was nerfed. It was a small nerf, and it doesn't effect me too much, but it's the principle of it that bothers me.

Garen was and is not OP, people just didn't bother learning how to beat him.

ArchenzOct 25, 201516 votes

People don't like kiting or using their brains. They dont understand why they are losing after focusing garen and grouping around him while his w and e is on.

frigginmurlocsOct 25, 201519 votes

Kite? I have yet to go a game without the enemy adc walking into melee range for no reason

AMYS GRAVEOct 25, 201518 votes

I had a game yesterday where my graves flashed into melee range of morde who had his 3rd q ready. He didn't understand why he died.

TotalJerkOct 26, 20154 votes

To be fair, in chaotic situations it isn't exactly easy to tell that Morde is even using his Q, much less whether he's on his third one.

Auz the RipperOct 26, 20153 votes

He actually has a counter on him when he's using his Q that states which number he's on

It even has exclamation marks

TotalJerkOct 26, 20154 votes

That is not remotely easy to spot in chaotic situations. You pretty much have to be looking for it to even notice it.

AMYS GRAVEOct 26, 20151 votes

His mace even changes color to yellow for the second hit and red when it is on the third hit.

Mistress MadokaOct 26, 20152 votes

They need to make it stand out more, It's not the easiest particle effect to see

AMYS GRAVEOct 26, 20152 votes

I guess, but q or no q being in melee range of morde doesn't end well and there is no reason to be there on a ranged champion let alone use flash to get there.

Mistress MadokaOct 27, 20152 votes

This is very true. You're supposed to Kite Morde by running AWAY from the Giant Mace, not under it,

StephenizgodOct 26, 201517 votes

lol exactly!

"OMG GAREN IS SO OP THERE IS NO STOPPING HIM"

"...maybe you shouldn't have fist fought him Caitlyn..."

"HOW ELSE AM I SUPPOSE KILL HIM?!?!"

HighH1Oct 26, 20154 votes

there needs to be a champion that can put markers,lines,and circles down that indicate stand here,dont pass this line,and don't go in this area

SociopathFriendOct 26, 20152 votes

That would be what pings are for- in theory at least.

HighH1Oct 26, 20153 votes

what are pings in bronze tho

CynikaOct 26, 20155 votes

{quoted}

what are pings in bronze tho

Pretty lights

Actually xPekeOct 26, 20152 votes

disco show

ErockandrollOct 25, 20158 votes

{quoted}

People don't like kiting or using their brains. They dont understand why they are losing after focusing garen and grouping around him while his w and e is on.

To be fair, a lot of people view kiting as a retreat action. where, "if you need to kite, your being zoned." This is part of the reason why I don't like playing glass cannons. And unless your a tank shredder. (hi vayen) You can't actually make much head way continuously poking at someone with 200 armor and 3k health. (not to mention that skirting around the edge of your attack range makes it difficult to follow up on ganks, when you typically won't have as much MS as your opponent. (But you probably should have at least one dash.)

That said, theirs no excuse not knowing how to kite, or not using your maximum range to your advantage.

StephenizgodOct 26, 20154 votes

My issue is where was all this "OMG GAREN CAN'T BE KITED" bullshit before the patch? He is actually easier to kite now then before the rework! I actually perform no better or worse with Garen now then i did before the patch only difference is now when i win its "Omg Garen OP" and his build path is slightly different thanks to OP items such as Deadmans an Steraks.

ErockandrollOct 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

My issue is where was all this "OMG GAREN CAN'T BE KITED" bullshit before the patch? He is actually easier to kite now then before the rework! I actually perform no better or worse with Garen now then i did before the patch only difference is now when i win its "Omg Garen OP" and his build path is slightly different thanks to OP items such as Deadmans an Steraks.

The Problem I see with Sterak's is that it adds a new defensive mechanic that gives a ridiculous amount of options for tanky champions. If your fighting against Burst and all in, You can get Sterak's and have a massive Shield available to turn a fight around. But if you try whiddle down the Juggernaut with Poke, well they have Wormarg's for that.

Seeing these options for Juggernauts, really leaves very few option when they start health stacking.

StephenizgodOct 26, 20151 votes

well plus Steraks gives a huge boost to defense with no skill required. You don't need to time anything you just automatically get a big ass shield, i feel that item could do well as an active where it gives more shield the lower you are or something but last a lot less, so you need to time it right.

ErockandrollOct 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

well plus Steraks gives a huge boost to defense with no skill required. You don't need to time anything you just automatically get a big ass shield, i feel that item could do well as an active where it gives more shield the lower you are or something but last a lot less, so you need to time it right.

Problem with an activatable shield. Is it would change the condition the shield would otherwise give you.

It shouldn't save you if your already low, and it shouldn't be use generically for preventing damage. But it should help prevent you from going 100-0 in a matter of seconds.

Though I could argue that it may do it's job a little too well. 30% of you max health? That a 900 HP shield on a 3k health tank.

StephenizgodOct 26, 20152 votes

honestly Riot has a tendency to think "Can we do this?" and not "Should we do this?". Sterak's is a good idea implemented poorly, it doesn't give a large boost to most champions but on a select few it can turn them into an unkillable monster (like Garen).

Monkey D LuffyOct 26, 20151 votes

he is op and impossible to handle / kill and does so much damage

redniwediSOct 26, 20155 votes

Did you even read my post? Why are you trying to tell someone who has no trouble handling Garen that Garen is impossible to handle?

Please read posts you're replying to before you reply to them.

Monkey D LuffyOct 26, 20151 votes

You can't handle him, you're lying, nobody can, and if you can how? i doubt you'll be able to reply with sufficiency because garen is broken.

redniwediSOct 26, 20156 votes

I also doubt I can reply with sufficient detail to please you. You've made up your mind and are no longer open to outside opinion.

The boards are for discussion, not closed minds. You're lucky moderation is not up to me.

Monkey D LuffyOct 26, 20151 votes

No you could easily, IF you replied with information which you're clearly avoiding to post.

redniwediSOct 26, 20154 votes

I don't know what information you're looking for. There are countless guides out there to help you if you don't understand something about facing him. They can go far more in depth than I can reasonably do so on here as with most matchups it really depends on who you are playing.

If you just want me to suggest a few easy counters, however, you can try Lissandra, Malzahar, Jayce, Vladimir, Tryndamere, Aatrox, Malphite, or Rumble. Just keep in mind Garen is best at punishing mistakes, so if you are mistake prone no counter will save you. Also playing someone you know is far better than picking a counter if you are not familiar with said counter.

WhiteGuyWannaBeOct 26, 20155 votes

That guy is a troll or too stupid to comprehend anything you could say. Ignore him.

Mistress MadokaOct 26, 20155 votes

Lissandra makes Garen cry :c

ArchenzOct 25, 201519 votes

This thread inspired me to make this thread. They did accept feedback you dunce.

The only real beef I have with Riot is the stupid reason they keep sion and sejuani in a weak state.

Because they were flavor of the month, that's just stupid.

Malevolent MetalOct 26, 20152 votes

{quoted}

This thread inspired me to make this thread. They did accept feedback you dunce.

The only real beef I have with Riot is the stupid reason they keep sion and sejuani in a weak state.

Because they were flavor of the month, that's just stupid.

I play Sion alot and I can tell you that he is not weak.

ErockandrollOct 25, 20159 votes

The thing is, Riot reworked these champions not for balance. (that was more the item rework.) but rather to give these champions more unique mechanics to play around. So Riot was going to keep pushing them until they were able to fulfill there intended niche. (even when that throws them over the edge) And then reevaluate their position. And with the exception of Darius, all of those champions were accomplishing their niche, by the time 5.16 came out.

Riot can tone down champions if they over perform. But not likely to the point were they can no longer perform their playstyle.

Sugar MommaOct 25, 20155 votes

Thumbs up for telling the truth.

MatezoideOct 25, 20154 votes

Except Darius was crap on release.

Except Garen was weak at first and the self slow was fucking stupid.

ArchenzOct 25, 201515 votes

Nah, they were actually pretty balanced. Darius was really balanced, the e slow and w revert was what sent him over the edge.

HighH1Oct 26, 20158 votes

also 10% healing per person capped at 30% was balanced but nope people complained and 15% per person horror monster,ass fucker darius was born

ZelnorackOct 26, 20157 votes

Forgetting the 40-200 free AD he gets during a fight.

He doesn't need that. The insta-5 stacks is more than enough. His ult will be dealing 900 true damage anyway. No reason to slam it up to 1200. He just has to murder the squishy, squishy support and suddenly your ADC could die in 2 hits.

Let's not forget that 1200 damage is usually 1/3 to 1/3.5 of a tanks health.

TotalJerkOct 26, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Forgetting the 40-200 free AD he gets during a fight.

That AD is not "free". He has to either max bleed stacks or Dunk someone. Free stats is what someone like Riven or Xin Zhao get just for pressing a button.

VlasimutheOct 26, 20155 votes

Riot please make this a skin item 3144 summoner 3

Very Hard EngageOct 26, 20153 votes

i dont believe people were asking for veigar "compensation" after DFG removal.

and even when meddler told us "well were thinking about turning Q into a linear skill shot which passes through 2 enemies and were thinking about giving his stun a delay and an indicator " it was overwhelmingly hated on. no1 wanted those changes, but it went through anyway because RIOT wanted it.

ElkingtonOct 26, 20153 votes

I've never complained about Darius or Garen being weak. I just think they don't have very good kits for winning games and I still do. They both are only good when their numbers and/or itemization is overbearing.

CanastusOct 26, 20153 votes

Guess what happens if they DON'T listen to feedback?

Reworks like the one for Cassiopeia or Mordekaiser happen. Please don't tell me you're seriously satisfied with those. You're either dealing with an horrendously underpowered champion or with an inherently broken one. Both also miss their original identities.