Both Guinsoo's and BotRK Give Stats That You Just Don't Need On On-Hit Champions

ArnoldSchwarzens··1 votes·1,548 views

BotRK has AD, most on-hit champions don't really scale all that well with it though. That's why they pick up on-hit and attack speed in the first place. Another confusing aspect is that it gives you life steal. As an on-hit champion, you don't really want that either, since you obviously can't lifesteal off your on-hits and your basic attacks themselves don't really deal a lot of damage compared to most crit champions, who also don't pick up BotRK to go for a BT instead.

Then there's Guinsoo's. It's kind of stuck between being an on-hit item and a hybrid item. There are not a lot of champions in the game who can make perfect use of AD, AP attack speed AND on-hit all at the same time. The only one I think does it somewhat good is Jax but even his AD ratios are somewhat meh compared to others.

MasterYi for example wastes way too much money on AP and he only has a shitty ratio on his W, Kayle scales rather horribly with AD and Akali does not want either on-hit or attack speed.

I'm writing this mostly because both items get just straight buffs on the PBE instead of making those items more linear and actual full on-hit items.

I personally think Guinsoo's should get rid of either its AD or its AP or both and it should have more attack speed or its gold cost lowered instead, otherwise it'll always give a much too weird combination of stats to really work as an item.

BotRK could also get a kind of mini-rework, maybe so that is has actual on-hit sustain instead of life steal.

17 Comments

Dehitay2 votes

Are you fucking serious? On hit doesn't scale with AD? Do you know what the very first thing taken into consideration when autoattacking a champion is?

And of course Guinsoo's is a hybrid item. That's exactly what it was made for from the very beginning. Every single one of it's changes has always kept the fact that it's a hybrid item in mind.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo2 votes

lol .. "are you fucking serious?" wow going a lil strong ...

i like it.

yea kayle dont need item 3153 item 3085 item 3091 item 3124 item 3115 item 3006 none of those items do anything for her lol

Sanctimonious2 votes

Hey there. Diamond Kayle main here.. I mean, one trick.

Kayle Synergizes fairly well with mixed stats considering her E has a 40% AD ratio which converts physical damage to magic damage. So figure this, Rageblade gives 53 AD, 74 AP, and 73% attack speed.

.4 * 53 = +21 Magic damage, .45 * 74 = 33.3 Magic Damage and + 15 base damage. On an average hit, that's +70 damage. Consider the phantom hit, and it's 104 Magic damage.

Now, we consider Nashor's + Rageblade that's a total of 60 + 15 + 15 + 45% AP (69.3 Magic damage), + 40% AD (21) her base ad is around 75 so she AA's for 121 +181 + 90.5 (Phantom hit)

Considering Nashor's + rageblade + Attack Speed runes currently is around 1.9 attack speed, i recon it will be somewhere around 2.0 (For simplicity) (121 +181 + 90.5) x2 = 242 Physical Damage + 542 Magic damage per second.

If there's anything wrong with it, it's the cost and lack of on-hits to go with it currently. They just nerfed fervor really hard, and as a compensatory buff to her they're giving rageblade a tiny buff by giving it 25% attack speed. It will not make up for the 1,100 damage per second lost by the removal of the on-hit fervor keystone though.

Kayle's likely to be a bit closer to balanced with this change, and i think she will finally move back towards AP / On-hit builds from the Nashor's -> Runaan's -> IE sort of builds she's going right now. If they change it to give only really AP, i don't think jax or Yi will want it, and if they change it to AD kayle won't like it as much. I think it's a great compensatory item for her losing old runaan's hurricane.

IIRC botrk does more damage than BT if they have over 2k health. It's a great item on Kayle because of the natural AD / Attack Speed / On-Hit synergy. The flat ad gives good damage to squishies while the % damage synergizes well with her %Armor Shred passive, and Runaan's. Though, if a team is really tanky i'll just build Runaan's and Bloodrazor and become vayne.

I think your ideas are a bit off on what to do with the itemization. Keep thinking though!

oSEXYPLATYPUSo2 votes

lol school him ...

[slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

ProfDrDeath1 votes

Agree with almost everything.

Except that the Rageblade buffs is tiny. It is most definitely not.

Rageblade gets a flat 25% AS buffs, without any changes to the passive. What this means is that the item's gold value just jumped up 625 gold. This puts its gold efficiency when unstacked at 92.0% (3312.5/3600), and fully stacked at 157.3% (5664.5/3600).

Sanctimonious1 votes

Yeah, It most certainly isn't enough to make her "Strong again." Though it will help with a multitude of things, especially mid game. I wonder how gold efficient it is with Nashors + Kayles E, assuming stacked. I'd assume a fairly high % . Also, i wonder how much value was lost over fervor being changed.. Ik it was a lot too..

Sightless662 votes

BotRK has AD, most on-hit champions don't really scale all that well with it though.

They scale fine with it. On-hit builds by necessity have attack speed, which enhances the value of AD. Any on-hit champion is perfectly fine purchasing AD. The presence of AD is never a bad thing for an on-hit item.

since you obviously can't lifesteal off your on-hits

That's not actually true. You do lifesteal off of most physical on-hit effects, including BotRK's.

Guinsoo's is kind of stuck between being an on-hit item and a hybrid item.

Agreed. The AP on it really fucks the item's design. It's a relic of the past, when the item had a different purpose (one it also failed to live up to by the way). The only thing is does is limit the number of champions who can purchase it. It's a complete failure as a hybrid item right now, so I'm personally for getting rid of the AP and replacing it with stats that any on-hit champion can use.

ProfDrDeath1 votes

You used to not lifesteal from BotRK's passive, though. But that was changed 1.5 years ago, in patch 5.8.

Sightless661 votes

Correct. It should also be noted that you can't lifesteal off of BloodRazor's damage.

Mimy1 votes

Don't people pick up bork for on-hit builds because of the Soon to be 8% health damage it gives?

that's a lot of on hit damage..

Rageblade is similar, your missing the main point they're looking at.. When you hit full stacks it gives you a Mini Sated and every other auto attack is like 2 auto attacks in one..

So if you have Rageblade at 6 stacks.. and BORK..

that's 8% health one attack then 16% (Unless that multiplicative stack..) then 8% and then 16% again..

and that would be just 4 Auto attacks.. if it's stacked..

#Also the Lifestal of bork also applies to the 8% Health damage Passive.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

dont on hit damage apply lifesteal ? and 25 ad isnt alot? but the attack speed is nice which helps .

Mimy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Kr7Qdmhq,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-11-15T05:30:29.099+0000)

dont on hit damage apply lifesteal ? and 25 ad isnt alot? but the attack speed is nice which helps .

item 3153 the passive for the %health damage literally says "Lifesteal applies to this Damage"

As far as Other on-hit I'm not sure. I would Imagine the "Physical" on hit damage

items that deal "Physical on hit damage"

item 3085 item 3153 item 3078 item 3074 item 3748 item 3742

item 3147 this is true damage on-hit, doesn't specify whether this true damage is physical or Magical?

"Magic damage on hit" item 3094 item 3087 item 3091 item 3124 item 3115


it's really good to know this because if you REALLY need some type of Penetration then you know whether to get a LW or Void Staff Unless you mixing the types of Damages then you don't need to..


#This isnt directed to you personally, you probably already know all this.. but some people don't they just think on-hit is on-hit but the on-hit has their "Types" of on hit..

#Perhaps it's worth testing if the life steal works with the Physical Damage on-hit items.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

yea and my statement wasnt directed to you ... its a round about way to probe and get people to provide info to threads. i also use the counter argument to proc more conversations and try to broaden the thought process of a topic to see it from multiple angles but that makes me classified as lets see what i been called the last few days a troll, liar, retard and so on ... lol

Mimy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Kr7Qdmhq,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2016-11-15T05:44:55.140+0000)

yea and my statement wasn't directed to you ... its a round about way to probe and get people to provide info to threads. i also use the counter argument to proc more conversations and try to broaden the thought process of a topic to see it from multiple angles but that makes me classified as lets see what i been called the last few days a troll, liar, retard and so on ... lol

I understand. You're talking to a person who gets downvoted all the time in gameplay.. xD

Not that I'm trying to troll or give false information, but I merely state my opinions. Sadly everyone always has to prove me wrong with facts and figures like it would make them the better player. I know I'm not a good player, I just like to theorize and stuff. Experiment. Have fun..

ProfDrDeath1 votes

True damage usually does not benefit from Lifesteal, iIrc. Only from Omnivamp.

Rebonack1 votes

I'm still of the opinion that Rageblade should be split into two items.

One keeps Rageblade basically as is. But instead of phantom hit it instead gets an OnHit effect that deals 10+AP ratio physical damage and 10+Bonus AD ratio magic damage OnHit. Upon reaching full stacks it kicks into AoE damage mode.

The other would build out of Recurve, Stinger, and a Dagger, provide some amount of magic OnHit damage, and just have Phantom Hit active at all times.

khorney1 votes

You forgot tf Varus kog and ori they all can use this perfectly how ever with the removal of fervor or the Nerf as I call it your losing damage

More from Gameplay

More by ArnoldSchwarzens