Look at how many problems its created. It took 2 full season to get it to the point where it was more or less balanced. I dont want to wait another 2 years to get it back there.
Why did you have to change it just for the sake of change?
Critmaster Garen29 votesturret first blood is a bigger problem right now.
i think it actually breaks the game, considering how teams that get it are almost guaranteed to win the game at higher ranks.
the constant pressure and repeated dives and ganks on bot lane are a symtom of the impact turret first blood has on the game. even bot lane ziggs is another consequence of that change. i approve of bot lane diversity, but it shows how busted turret first blood is, when people bring a level dependent champion into the duo lane where they have to gimp themsleves by sharing xp, because of his turret wrecking kit.
Eedat33 votesNah dude. The new jungle is busted. They're going to nerf it but that doesnt change the fact that its only going to hurt all the junglers who arent currently top tier even more. Then we're going to go through an entire season of tweaks so that 5 junglers dont dominate the meta the whole season
A Basic Island2 votesthey aren't really nerfing it at all. they're just shoving the xp the added to golems into raptors
all it'll change imo is the champions that are strong coming out of the jungle.
safe clearing raptor champions will become a necessity.
The Yetii Rider2 votes[{quoted}](name=A Basic Island,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KngzluLr,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-07T16:29:13.071+0000)
they aren't really nerfing it at all. they're just shoving the xp the added to golems into raptors
all it'll change imo is the champions that are strong coming out of the jungle.
safe clearing raptor champions will become a necessity.
It's only for the first clear.
Critmaster Garen5 votesNah dude. The new jungle is busted. They're going to nerf it but that doesnt change the fact that its only going to hurt all the junglers who arent currently top tier even more. Then we're going to go through an entire season of tweaks so that 5 junglers dont dominate the meta the whole season
im not saying the jungle is balanced. but the dominance of carry junglers, over more utility focused supporting junglers, or farm focused junglers is correlated to turret first blood.
basically you want to pick a champion who doesnt afk farm the jungle for 15 to 20 minutes with occational ganks.
you want to pick a carry jungler whos able to nonstop gank bot lane to win that lane and to snowball his team off champion first blood + that first turret bounty + dragon.
Eedat14 votesNo, the dominance of early game gankers is because the Jungle respawn timers are ridiculously long. If you cant gank, you're SOL because there is no jungle to go back to. The only real exception is 
and other counter-junglers because she has the means to take the enemy's jungle on top of her own anytime the enemy jungler shows on the map
The Yetii Rider2 votesNo, the dominance of early game gankers is because the Jungle respawn timers are ridiculously long. If you cant gank, you're SOL because there is no jungle to go back to. The only real exception is
Yeah. They said they're rejecting power farming the jungle as a strategy. So either you counterjungle or you gank. That's working as intended.
Plenty of champions who can't gank early can invade if the player knows what he's doing. It's not just specific champs like Nunu and Shyvana.
dunder kill1 votesYeah but some are much better at it than others. can run over, clear 2 camps, and be back in her jungle in the time it would take 
to counter jungle just one camp
Moetaro19 votesSmell that? You smell that?
Ghostcrawler, son. Nothing else in the world smells like that.
I love the smell of Ghostcrawler in the morning. You know, one time we had an awesome game (WoW) ghostcrawlered, for 12 hours. When it was all over, I walked up. We didn't find one of 'em, not one stinkin' dink body. The smell, you know that gasoline smell, the whole game. Smelled like..... victory. Someday this LoL's gonna end...
GayFluffyUnicorn11 votesIt's sad to say but it really starts to feel like the infamous GC somehow manages to ruin every game.
Chromatic Eagle4 votesThese are team decisions, not just one man. Riot can easily agree or disagree with his designs, and we don't even know if he came up with the jungle changes himself (did he?).
Heartstrings213 votesWorld of Warcraft was supposed to be team based decisions too, and Ghostcrawler managed to completely fuck up class balance. Soon as he leaves we get an expansion like Legion, where the class balance is leagues better than its been for the past 4 expansions.
Xonra5 votesNo as soon as he leaves you got an expansion like Mists of Pandaria (technically Cata, but his hands were all over that one, unlike MoP). He had nothing to do with MoP on the whole, and that expansion was by far my least fav expansion. Quite possibly my least fav expansion for any MMO I've ever played. That expansion made me quit the game outright. Just sayin, he messed up a lot, but you got a TERRIBLE expansion after he left that he wasn't involved in at all.
Moetaro1 votesYou cannot impact a game as big as WoW or LoL instantly. You need a lot of time before you can start impacting the game. I guess more or less a year, maybe more to fully impact the game. The first expansion after GC leaving was still impacted by him, and the first expansion after he arrived was probably not impacted by him.
There's a ton of work in a expansion/season. You cannot redo all the work that has been yet done. I bet GC couldnt impact LoL enough for at least one season. Take the date when GC arrived, add one year to that date, and you will see how easily it matchs with the worst of WoW and LoL.
Man, you only have to read his posts to know what does he think it is a good game. What he thinks it is a good game, is total trash. Plus, in every post you will find the "unique"/"uniqueness" word, and I can olny say....
http://i2.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/010/692/19789999.jpg
This is not his fault though, I knew he was here, and still I came. It's MY fault.
L0ve Is Blue15 votesThat would solve so many issues I can't even count them.
The jungle has never been so elitist. Only those who can clear super fast and gank early are able to jungle properly, and if you aint playing one of these well hope you arent going against one because you are fucked. And those stupid plants making those junglers even more toxic by giving them extra map mobility (blast cone) or making them able to see WICH BUSH IS WARDED before they gank (the blue shit)
Shoutout to 
Bots Whilst High2 votesScrying bush is no different than raptor buff tbh. The reason they changed the jungle is because outside of the buffs and raptors the smite buffs weren't being used and instead of making other buffs meaningful they just removed them.
YFisfabulousBRUH3 votesScrying bush is so different than raptor buff. For scrying you can just sit there and take note of which wards are where and that gives you time to clear them, not to mention they stick around for a long time after the initial trigger for easy clearing. Compare that to the raptor buff, where you have to wander around checking bushes and when the raptor buff triggers its like 5 secs before it runs out. Scrying is also free vision for enemy champions and enemy jungle camps.
Yordle Xayah7 votesWhile I've found some use to the plants, not in 9000 years could I compare them to how useful camp buffs were. Not even close, not even a contest.
Xonra5 votesRiot didn't like how everyone "figured out" the old jungle.
Now all anyone is trying to figure out is wtf Riot was thinking changing the jungle to what it currently is.
Guess they got what they want in an awkward way?
WinTheWarOnPants5 votesseason 5 jungle was best jg IMO. I miss the smite buffs, I miss old drag buff(with only one drag), and I MISS NOT HAVING THESE STUPID PLANTS!!! Q.Q
watch the bush6 votesSeason 5 in general was so fun. Season 6 and current season are just lame. I seriously miss season 5. I'd kill to go back in time to it.
Dominick Destine3 votes[{quoted}](name=watch the bush,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KngzluLr,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2017-01-08T04:29:08.079+0000)
Season 5 in general was so fun.
People said S5 was the worst during S5.... at a MUCH higher rate than what people are saying in S7.
In fact, pretty much whatever season we're in is always "The Worst Season".... or have you forgotten League of Cleaver which was S5 ? Pfeh. Am I the only one with long term memory here?
watch the bush2 votesLol, honestly I don't give a fuck. I can remember clear as day how much more I enjoyed this game in Season 5 than Season 6 and 7. These two seasons are just Riot trying to make their game so different "fresh" that it's become trash. Sure, change is good. But some of these changes are fixing things that aren't broken and adding things to make the game more broken.
Back when this game didn't have keystones, new masteries (they're not that bad i guess but keystones on the other hand just create unnecessary imbalance), autofill, pick order, and these plants that are just extremely retarded in my opinion. They literally have to add 10 bans because they can't balance all these champions that over powered because of masteries + keystones that just add unnecessary power to what a champion already has.
If you tell me you enjoy this game more than how it was in the past, I'm sorry but you're fucking lying so get out of here with that shit lol
Anyone who enjoys 95% of one sided games that involve snow balling and one team curb stomping the other team until they're able to ff in 20 is dumb. Take me back to the days where games were longer and more interesting. Where there was actually room to come back instead of one team fight costing either the game or baron and then the team snowballing even harder. No, just no.
These new dragons, first turret gold, keystones, and long death timers need to fucking go. I miss when a champion wasn't reliant on a keystone, and decided if it was OP or not.
And take your stupid ass autofill that creates more of a toxic environment with an increase of trolls just because they don't want to play their autofilled role out along with that too.
The fact a Ziggs + Zyra can dominate bot lane alone against anything meta is disgusting. I'm not talking about a shitty Ziggs and Zyra, I'm talking ones that actually know what they're doing. There's obviously so much wrong with bot lane right now too. It's a JOKE.
Riot is just buffing ADs instead of fixing the real fucking problem. That's what they're good for, ignoring problems and doing what they think is right. Well look at this season and last season, disgusting and ridiculous.
Also, all Riots champion releases started getting lamer and lamer after Kalista and Reksai. Now they just make champions with busted kits that don't belong in League. I understand that sounds a bit hypocritical because of Kalista but meh.
Dominick Destine2 votes[{quoted}](name=watch the bush,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KngzluLr,comment-id=0004000000000001,timestamp=2017-01-08T20:27:13.846+0000)
I can remember clear as day how much more I enjoyed this game in Season 5
That's nice.
I have heard that literally every season, on the season. S7 is objectively better than S6. S7 is arguably equal to 5.... I was indifferent to S4 but I loved S2 and S3. S1 was kind of weak. Again I am the only one with long term memory, or more precisely, long term memory without rose tinted glasses.
If you tell me you enjoy this game more than how it was in the past, I'm sorry but you're fucking lying so get out of here with that shit
You're comparing 1 season against 6 years of gameplay. It would be nearly impossible to say that I do enjoy it more now by virtue of simple math.
I will say that S7 is MUCH better than S6 and at least as good as S5.... but as I just said, S2 and S3 were my favorites. Before the draconian system, before Riot became SJW, before Morello was gone. That was the golden age.
watch the bush2 votesObjectively better. Yeah, because turrets that are made of glass and easy to destroy with the first turret gold allowing one team to snowball hard and win the game is fun right? Yeah me saying I enjoyed this game more in S5 is my opinion though, I respect yours.
Dominick Destine1 votes[{quoted}](name=watch the bush,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KngzluLr,comment-id=000400000000000100000000,timestamp=2017-01-08T21:24:02.701+0000)
Objectively better. Yeah, because turrets that are made of glass and easy to destroy
That's cute, but it's not the case.
Again, as I am the only person who seems to have long term memory.... for multiple years people decried the overly powerful old turrets claiming "We should be the ones to defend turrets, not the other way around"... and when the community finally got what it wanted, it did a complete 180 which is what we're seeing now.
me saying I enjoyed this game more in S5 is my opinion
Subjectivity is irrelevant. Objectivity is absolute.
watch the bush2 votesWhat are you saying it's not the case? That's exactly how they are right now, boast about your "LONG TERM MEMORY" all you want but you're clearly dense too. I don't know who complained about turrets being too powerful, maybe the damage they do but that has nothing to do with their HP.
Whoever complained about that, obviously has no clue how to make a great game or play the game the way it's supposed to be played. Maybe this is why Riot doesn't listen to their community, because it's filled with a bunch of incompetent monkeys, lol.
All League nowadays is a snowball fest. First tower and first blood allow a team to completely dominate the game from there on as long as they're not retards. The fact games generally last shorter than 30 minutes gives late game carries no chance to actually be a late game carry unless, guess what, they snow ball. BECAUSE THAT'S ALL LEAGUE IS NOWADAYS leaving extremely little to no room to comeback. It's pathetic
Also, maybe people did think Season 5 was bad - but it definitely was better than the shit we got and have to deal with now. 1000% better.
Here at Riot, we like to create a system that promotes toxicity and force people into a role they do not wish to play just for the sake of shorter queue times. We believe this will decrease toxicity and more positive sportsmanlike environment
Dominick Destine1 votes[{quoted}](name=watch the bush,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KngzluLr,comment-id=00040000000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-08T22:10:32.174+0000)
What are you saying it's not the case? That's exactly how they are right now
... did you even understand my previous post? it wasn't that complicated....
/boggle
Whoever complained about that, obviously has no clue how to make a great game
Wait what was that thing you said earlier? let me paraphrase; That's just like, your opinion man That's why subjectivity is garbage and objectivity is absolute.
Here at Riot, we like to create a system that promotes toxicity
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Kore wa.....
watch the bush2 votesSo, you're actually saying that everything you claim is objective and not subjective to your own opinion? Everything you're saying is facts. Because, not /everyone/ was crying about turrets being too powerful and maybe you're confusing turrets being powerful with tower shots and not just their HP itself.
You keep trying to act like you're right and high and mighty, but a lot of what you say is also just you talking out of your ass spewing out your own opinions too.
What's wrong with this game?
Keystones
First turret gold
Autofill (only adds onto toxicity. You get kids in SoloQ who troll because they cba to support and it makes for a shitty time as an ADC player that has to lane against a bot lane duo or an enemy support who actually wants to try and win)
Death timers being too long
Games that generally result in open mid or ff in 20 because once a team is going, there's little to do to stop them from continuing to fuck your shit up.
Maybe even these dragons that only increase snowball even harder. Bring it back to when it was simple and just one dragon.
And the retarded kits that Riot is giving to new champions when releasing them.
"All League nowadays is a snowball fest. First tower and first blood allow a team to completely dominate the game from there on as long as they're not retards. The fact games generally last shorter than 30 minutes gives late game carries no chance to actually be a late game carry unless, guess what, they snow ball. BECAUSE THAT'S ALL LEAGUE IS NOWADAYS leaving extremely little to no room to comeback. It's pathetic"
That's facts, like your smart ass likes to talk so much about, lol
Dominick Destine1 votes[{quoted}](name=watch the bush,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KngzluLr,comment-id=0004000000000001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-08T23:42:30.712+0000)
So, you're actually saying that everything you claim is objective and not subjective to your own opinion?
What is a strawman argument for 500 Alex
d A i L y D o U b L e
retarded
Well that's lovely.
watch the bush2 votesYou can't see the bigger picture when you're as dense as you are. Can't debate with someone who also seems narcissistic.
Baron Perenolde1 votesAgreed, seasons 2 and 3 were the best. And is Morello completely gone? I thought he just didn't work on champions anymore.
Xonra2 votesSeason 6 could have been looked at more fondly if the entire season wasn't spent being frustrated about DQ and the start of Auto fill.
Dominick Destine1 votesSeason 6 could have been looked at more fondly if the entire season wasn't spent being frustrated about DQ and the start of Auto fill.
I agree. S6 would have been one of the best seasons but DQ destroyed it.
S6 was hands down the worst season of them all.
SweedishGunner5 votesYes please.
Don't forget first blood tower whilst you're at it.
Gelmous3 votesRevert to season 3 Riot please.
ArnoldSchwarzens2 votesTo be fair, there are PBE nerfs that adress its current problems. I just hope that they will be enough.
Jungle Non-buff camps now reward about 25% less XP on the First Clear* Experience Changes [NOTE: When comparing values, remember big camps all get +50 bonus experience from jungle items] Blue - XP lowered to 200 from 210 Red - XP lowered to 200 from 210 Gromp - XP lowered to 200 from 210 Little Krugs - XP lowered to 35 from 45 Mini Krugs - XP lowered 7 from 15 Crimson Raptor- XP increased to 20 from 15 Small Raptors - XP increased to 35 from 15.
( taken from surrenderat20.net )
Eedat7 votesThats just going to shit on all the current junglers that aren't top tier even worse. It solves absolutely nothing other than a blanket nerf
GayFluffyUnicorn7 votesOverall it does nothing. Only that junglers won't be two level above the laner after first clear but encouraging ganking even more. 90% of the games outcome is determined by the jungler and first blood turret. If your jungler is trash you won't get firstblood turret nor win your lane. All shacos, lees, vis just gank and gank and gank snowball everything. Currently playing on my smurf and even in silver/low gold games are over in 25 minutes. Sure if you have a premade jungler it is all fun for you getting that freelo but as a solo player you already have low impact in the game, if you are now in a lane with a premade jungler which is guaranteed thanks to role selection it will be hard for you to do anything. There aren't any outplays or shows of skill anymore it is just a constant bait fest on whose jungler is close right now.
badooga2 votesMaybe if these changes were paired with reduced respawn timers, then some of the problems would actually be fixed.
ModKnightsKemplar2 votesAs I've said to other people today already...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e31OSVZF77w
Watch some vids if you want to have a real discussion. Your comments are incredibly misinformed, and you're going to have to educate yourself on the basics of game design if you want to have a real discussion about it that other informed people can take seriously.
GaryFreakinnnOak6 votesAs I've said to other people today already...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e31OSVZF77w
Watch some vids if you want to have a real discussion. Your comments are incredibly misinformed, and you're going to have to educate yourself on the basics of game design if you want to have a real discussion about it that other informed people can take seriously.
I get pretty sick of people throwing that video around as if Riot is doing a good job on balance. Perfect imbalance only works when there isn't a dominant strategy. E.g. for supports the rock paper scissors goes Engage beats Sustain which beats disengage/poke which beats Engage. When there is a dominant strategy it means that one of those beats all the others and the counterplay is busted. You want a naturally evolving meta with small tweaks to deal with fundamental game play issues and the occasional new toy to play with to shake things up (this is where the perfect imbalance part would come in).
The way riot has been balancing for over two years now (Since 5.16) makes one set of champions plainly stronger than their counterparts and prevents any real counterpicks or counterstrategy. Vi with CoC at her current strength does not have an appreciable downside that can be exploited by picking a different type of teamcomp. If we stayed on the same patch for 3 months she would remain top tier for the entire period. Its not that Vi simply does well in the current meta, she defines the meta and crowds out other choices (you got to see this with Lee sin in S4-5 and we are seeing it again in S7). I mean honestly we're having tanks bursting ADCs and Assassins outside of Kat and LB struggling to do that, those balance choices have removed strategic choices from the game and makes the game less interesting and less dynamic to play.
TLDR: Perfect Imbalance isn't what Riot is doing, they are making balancing errors because they have thrown way too many changes into the game in the past two years for it to be in a good state. The game doesn't feel fresh because they are changing things, it feels frustrating because of the misguided changes they make that take forever for them to fix. The game at its core is still a good game, but it would be a BETTER game if they would slow the fuck down on putting new shit into the game and changing every aspect of it every three months.
P.S. What the fuck are blast cones? Honestly, why do we need that in the game? Was it too boring before? Was walking into the enemy jungle too punishing for Lee?
/END RANT
ModKnightsKemplar1 votesNow, see, there's an opinion I can respect, because at least you know what you're talking about.
And I tend to agree. I think they push minor changes too slowly, and major changes too quickly in most cases. I think it's pretty obvious that they don't intend for anyone to be that dominant for that long... but they are too slow on nerfing champs that are dominant in most cases. Not all.
I don't think "perfect imbalance" really describes what they are doing; I definitely agree with you that much. But I do think that the changes are a core part of their design philosophy, and blindly calling for them to revert them is nearly always going to fall on deaf ears.
P.S.- I might get downvoted even more into hell for this, but I like blast cones. Low-key disagreement there. I just think they're fun.
watch the bush2 votesThere was seriously no need for the plants. Just more imbalance, that's all it creates. Just like first tower, just like the new several dragons, just like the keystones. All Riot has done was proceed to fix things that were never broken and break things that were perfectly fine before.
League of Legends was a good game in 2015 and earlier. These new changes are only to try and keep the game alive and appeal to new players. They realize that other games are coming out that are in competition with League, but the game was perfectly fine and /FUN/ regardless of change. They're trying to make this game so much different than what it should be. All these new items, zzrot, redemption. So unnecessary. Just remove this shit already, for the love of god make your game great again.
The only change that needs to happen every so often is the meta every once and a while (which it does), balances in champions and that's it honestly. What makes League of Legends so fun is the skill cap and the outplay potential that happens in every game because every game is different.
Now? It's just, who can get first tower, who can snowball bot lane and get the drag and proceed to shit stomp afterwards. They've turned this game into something it should never be and knowing Riot they don't like to admit they're wrong when they are. In my opinion and I'm sure a lot will agree with me and some will disagree, the way they're turning League into sucks. It's a good game, but not with these changes.
How do you fix this? It doesn't take rocket science, you don't have to be Einstein, a genius.
This game would be much better off with;
Plants removed
Jungle changed and not the way they're changing it now. Make it the way it used to be, even early S6 jungle was fine.
Remove these god damn keystones already. All it does it make champions OP. Gives more power to a champion than what they already have, and while you're at it stop releasing new keystones that are even more broken. This game was interesting when you actually needed items, now it's a shit fest.
Remove first tower gold and make towers stronger. You know it's fucking bad when it's always a good idea to go and tower dive bot lane with a 4-5 man gank, get the tower and proceed to get the dragon and from there have all the map control you want.
For the love of god, make autofill something that players have the ability to opt in or out of. Not everyone agrees with being forced into a freaking role that they do not wish or know how to play in the first place just for the sake of shorter queue times.
cont: Not only is that not fun for the player autofilled, it just makes them turn into a whiny brat if they can't get the role they intended on playing when they queued up. Either make it optional or remove the system. It only creates more negative behavior. You're lying if you haven't been in a game where someone says "Shit, im fucking autofilled" and then threatens to afk or troll because they don't know how to play support or they don't want to play top lane.
Like fuck, just those right there would make this such a better game. I swear to god. Anyone that disagrees never played League until Season 6. I have a feeling that a lot of the pros don't even enjoy this game as much as before. I can't speak on them but I'm sure if they weren't getting paid to play this game, their opinions on it would change with the way this game's turning out to be.
ModKnightsKemplar1 votesNow you sound extremely ignorant again. You need to watch the video. The game is all about the changes. It was from the beginning. If you think otherwise, you OBVIOUSLY haven't been playing for long. There has been almost nothing constant about this game since it started.
Leafie2 votes"Because reasons. Buy more RP" -Riot
gottrjr2 votesLook at how many problems its created. It took 2 full season to get it to the point where it was more or less balanced. I dont want to wait another 2 years to get it back there.
Why did you have to change it just for the sake of change?
A revert is a good idea. I say revert then try something else again. Maybe in smaller doses because doing too much at once is straight fucking things up. Don't shotgun changes, apply them incrementally, test, and move on. I shouldn't have to tell professionals this but....
PokladnicaZla2 votesAgreed,but am I the only one who thinks that the vision and healing plant could be interesting actives for support items?
Ärtorias2 votesThey changed the jungle with krugs raptors and plants, but thats not the issue, the issue is the camps dont respawn fast enough for you to power farm, it forces junglers to gank, and if they are successful the will most likely get 1st blood tower (And dragon "gangbang botlane" - Aphromoo) all you do is recall get a huge spike in items then go clear your jungle and repeat, by now you already are 3 levels above their botlane and have 2 items on them so you just win pretty much.
The jungle isnt the issue, the playstyle is the issue, the jungle XP is strong but they are getting nerfed already
