"We don't like lane bullies because they are incredibly oppressive"
Yet rework Cass because she was one and then release Azir who is one of the best, if not the best lane bully who scales STUPID hard.
Narasimha18 votesBecause Azir pays for it. If he's poking you, then guess what? He has no soldiers near him. And if he's doing it constantly, then you should probably consider letting your jungler know "Hey. He's playing aggressively. He has no escapes. Lets get him." Well, the entire premise is that he's using his Q to harass. If you're being harassed otherwise, you need to work on positioning.
Poptart Evelynn7 votesBecause Azir pays for it. If he's poking you, then guess what? He has no soldiers near him. And if he's doing it constantly, then you should probably consider letting your jungler know "Hey. He's playing aggressively. He has no escapes. Lets get him." Well, the entire premise is that he's using his Q to harass. If you're being harassed otherwise, you need to work on positioning.
There is an issue with this. He can be near his soldiers at any given time. He has the kit that if used in the proper hands there is no setbacks. Summons soldier, pokes you, and what can you do? Go in on him? He presses q. Boom now you're fucked even more. Think about this now. He can also jump to his soldiers and he can push you away into his soldiers.
Narasimha21 votesANY kit in the proper hands has no setback. Have you ever seen a good Urgot? Its amusing and terrifying at the same time.
If he summons his soldiers, I MOVE. Does he use Q to make them hit me? Then nows my chance to go through and hit him back. Otherwise, I can keep farming and doing my own thing. And yes, he can jump to his soldiers. Which if he's using them to poke, means they're behind you. Which means he'd just dash into you. Not much of an escape.
Point being, for every offense action Azir makes, he loses a defensive option, and vice versa. The trick is to know when to capitalize on it. Or just play a siege mage and laugh at him, but thats a counter pick, not a counter play.
Subject 53 votesANY kit in the proper hands has no setback. Have you ever seen a good Urgot? Its amusing and terrifying at the same time.
If he summons his soldiers, I MOVE. Does he use Q to make them hit me? Then nows my chance to go through and hit him back. Otherwise, I can keep farming and doing my own thing. And yes, he can jump to his soldiers. Which if he's using them to poke, means they're behind you. Which means he'd just dash into you. Not much of an escape.
Point being, for every offense action Azir makes, he loses a defensive option, and vice versa. The trick is to know when to capitalize on it. Or just play a siege mage and laugh at him, but thats a counter pick, not a counter play.
Why is this quote upvoted 16 times? Every kit must have a weakness, there is no perfect kit.
Narasimha1 votesCorrect, no kit is perfect, and no one is either. However, the better a person is, the less mistakes they make, and the better they become at using the strengths of a champion while managing to bypass the weakness. Simply put, they become more efficient at using the kit, to a point where flaws and mistakes become a rarity .
asktiks1 votes[{quoted}](name=Nya Poptart Cat,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KmRuZ9W2,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-01-03T02:10:42.576+0000)
There is an issue with this. He can be near his soldiers at any given time. He has the kit that if used in the proper hands there is no setbacks. Summons soldier, pokes you, and what can you do? Go in on him? He presses q. Boom now you're fucked even more. Think about this now. He can also jump to his soldiers and he can push you away into his soldiers.
buy the champ, do this then come back and talk to me, I should know, I get shunpod/tornadoed/shadowed/voidrushed/xinzhaod enough on azir to know pretty much ANYONE that can get into range can delete you before you reposition soldiers and get enough AA in to kill the guy , right now hes still got bugs, his E actually works against you since your dash STOPS RIGHT IN THE CHAMPS FACE with your soldier still wherever the hell you were trying to dash to , boom youre dead in three seconds , laning against him ? juke his Q then move in , I cant do shit except run , back off , rinse and repeat as soon as you see him half health you can delete him as pretty much any character
BlackRaven3 votesBecause Azir pays for it. If he's poking you, then guess what? He has no soldiers near him. And if he's doing it constantly, then you should probably consider letting your jungler know "Hey. He's playing aggressively. He has no escapes. Lets get him." Well, the entire premise is that he's using his Q to harass. If you're being harassed otherwise, you need to work on positioning.
smart azirs save soldiers. if he uses one to poke u he can have one to escape.
Hyrum Graff7 votesWhen he's saving soldiers, though, the poke becomes bearable.
doubleguac2 votes6 second base cooldown on Conquering Sands at rank 5. That's 4.5 seconds with 25% CDR (Azir usually rushes a 20% CDR item, and will probably have 5% CDR from masteries). That's not exactly a huge window of opportunity to capitalize on.
By the time the jungler actually runs into lane and starts closing the gap on Azir, the cooldown will probably be, at most, 2-3 seconds away from available.
If he's level 6, he can also completely shut down a lot of junglers' ganks with his ultimate.
Because Azir pays for it.
The comparison is to Cassiopeia. Saying that Azir pays a cost for bullying his lane opponent, in the sense that he becomes easier to gank, is kind of unfair. Cassio is/was far easier to gank than Azir. Azir's ultimate alone makes him harder to gank than Cassio is/was.
Downfall12 votesAzir has clear counter play and mana issues, the reworked cass because she could do what azir can do but not put herself at risk in the process.
ImHerVoice1 votes[deleted]
Ariel the Cruel6 votesMalphite is the only champ that can pass his wall.
Auz the Ripper1 votes
Demonsolder211 votes
doubleguac2 votes
can ult through his wall.
ImHerVoice1 votes[deleted]
doubleguac3 votesI play hec all the time. If anything, I have less issues going OOM this preseason, because of the free mana regen added to hunter's machete.
For a first clear, depending on which side you are on, Hec can start: -Gromp -> wolves -> chickens -> red buff, OR -stone bros -> chickens -> wolves -> red buff, OR -stone bros -> wolves -> blue buff
without running out of mana. Then back, upgrade machete, and take the other buff. I never run out of mana doing any of these paths, and I use W and Q whenever they are available.
doubleguac2 votesHow did Cass put herself at less risk than Azir? Her standard harass (Q and E) are lower range than Azir's Q and soldier auto attacks. She has a modest slow and speed boost, whereas Azir has a potentially massive dash. And her ultimate is considerably worse at disengaging from a gank than Azir's is.
Even assuming Azir is blowing his soldiers and his Q constantly to harass, and thus doesn't have his dash available when he is ganked, he is still safer than Cassio, because he has higher range than her, and he has an ult that can completely shut down most gank attempts.
Downfall1 votesCass has DoT, once she lands skills she can back off, Azir's harass requires much more commitment, one false move on his part will kill him, cass can miss and still live. Early game Azir has giant cooldowns and mana costs, the best time to try and kill him is in the early game after he uses skills.
doubleguac1 votesEarly game Azir has giant cooldowns
I wouldn't call 10 seconds on Q and 12 seconds on W (with up to three charges held) "giant." And that's at level 1 of each. Q cooldown scales down very quickly in the early game. By the five minute mark, it will be 9 or 8.
Cass has DoT, once she lands skills she can back off, Azir's harass requires much more commitment
I was under the impression that most people level Q first on Azir. Q is just as much of a "fire and forget" skill shot as Ori's ball, and it has about the same range as Cassio's Q. You can fire it at the enemy laner then walk away if you want. It's true that Azir is encouraged to follow up with soldier auto attacks. But Cassio is also encouraged to follow up with twin fangs if she wants to maximize her damage. Twin fang has a much lower range than Azir's soldiers (700 versus up to 1000). So, assuming they both try to maximize their damage (Cassio Q's then twin fangs, Azir Q's then auto attacks), Cassio has to get and remain closer to the target to do so, which seems like it puts her at greater risk.
Downfall1 votesSir i don't even want to talk to you anymore...
Q is just as much of a "fire and forget" skill shot as Ori's ball
On neither Ori nor Azir would it be a good idea to fire and forget. They're the two micro-management champions in which you should never "forget"
doubleguac1 votesYou're totally missing the point. Azir's main poke in lane is his Q. He doesn't have to commit to anything to use his Q. He just clicks where he wants them to go, and they go. You said "once Cassio lands skills she can back off." You can do the exact same thing with Azir's Q.
He has to commit a bit more if he wants to follow up with soldier attacks. But so does Cass if she wants to follow up with twin fang. And twin fang has a lower range than soldier attacks.
Cassio has to get and stay closer to the enemy champion to harass them. There is no way in which Azir's harass is riskier than Cassio's. Saying that he is a "micromanagement" champion does not change the fact that he pokes from farther away, and has better escape, than Cassio, meaning he puts himself at substantially less risk doing it.
Zamiake1 votesIn exchange for his absurd power i think they should buff his mana costs by 20% over all. mainly because its the issue is when he gets annoyingly unbearable is when he can spam skills alot while having alot of mana left over is an issue. Alot of other champions like oriana and braum or vanye have some mana issues if you spam or combo your skills to much to that point u destroy some one in a few seconds. Azir can throw out several combos more then other champions while saving a usable amount to get away and such. Thats his main issue. cost need to be higher on him
Downfall1 votesHes similar to Zed and Riven, lots of skill and lots of practice and precise movements leads to getting fed and doing ridiculous amounts of damage, although Zed and Riven do put themselves at more of a risk when doing damage they don't have a terrible and awful early game like azir.
Abyssphere10 votesThey'll make up some dumb excuse for why he isn't one. "Blah blah moments of opportunity blah blah" and so on. He can zone you away from the entire lane if he feels like it.
FalconPawwwwnch10 votesNo late game champ should be good in lane period, this applies to any champion, ADC, fighter, mage, whatever. ADCs tend to break this rule the most (see Lucian or Caitlyn or Corki or some others ranged AD)
Reworking Cass to not be a lane bully was a good move, releasing Azir was the bad one, with that I agree
junglerboy162 voteswhile I agree in general with you statement, some champions SHOULD have differing power curves, like being strong early, really weak mid, and then strong late, as opposed to just being weak early and strong late. If every champion had the same handful of power curves, then this game would have no flavor. However, I agree that any champ who has a strong late game and scales consistently from level one straight up shouldn't have a strong early game.
Remlap12231 votesYep you pretty much nailed it. There's examples of all of those champs. Specifically speaking, Tristana qualified as the former, and Vayne the latter. The problem arises in the form of how easy it is to get fed off that early game power spike to disregard their mid game shortcomings. Ryze and Tristana both had that balance oopsie for a while, and then you have real fuck ups like Lee and the initial retune of Lucian.
Remlap12232 votesNo late game champ should be good in lane period, this applies to any champion, ADC, fighter, mage, whatever. ADCs tend to break this rule the most (see Lucian or Caitlyn or Corki or some others ranged AD)
Reworking Cass to not be a lane bully was a good move, releasing Azir was the bad one, with that I agree
Caitlyn is not good in the late game, she's arguably the weakest scaling ADC in the game. The examples of the bully ADCs that scale well were due to balance issues that have henceforth been corrected.
Removing the lane bully aspect out of Cassiopeia left her with a ridiculously bad power curve. Her scaling is arbitrarily dead locked, when I can play veigar who can bully just as hard with his rage cage face roll combo and still do more late game.
Frikgeek1 votesYou can't be serious. Caitlyn is only weak midgame because her steroid isn't very good. 50% every 5 attacks is 10% more DPS, not that much compared to other ADCs. Her lategame however is pretty damn good because of her range, escape, and good base attack speed - behind only Ashe, Vayne, and Twitch(and a few other champs that aren't really adcs.)
Remlap12231 votesYou can't be serious. Caitlyn is only weak midgame because her steroid isn't very good. 50% every 5 attacks is 10% more DPS, not that much compared to other ADCs. Her lategame however is pretty damn good because of her range, escape, and good base attack speed - behind only Ashe, Vayne, and Twitch(and a few other champs that aren't really adcs.)
Her late game is really not that good. 1v1, she's ok because of her range, poke, and huge AD scaling on her abilities. In teamfights, however, she's the weakest because her build is woefully inefficient. Jinx, Miss Fortune, Lucian, Vayne, even Ashe has a better build path than Caitlyn. The issue is that Caitlyn should be building Triforce, but doing so completely kills her crit chance. And you can't build Yomumu's on Caitlyn because it is horrible on her.
If I build Triforce and Yomumu's on Miss Fortune, however, I get huge burst damage, cooldown reduction, 50% crit chance, and ridiculous ability scaling, which gives her a huge presence in teamfights. With Caitlyn, I stunt her damage if I build both, and the other zeal weapons are not as efficient as Triforce should be on her, if she could reach that glorious 50% crit chance.
I've pulled off a 1000 damage sheen headshot crit proc on Caitlyn before. That kind of AA damage is something that only CritPlank could pull off reasonably. But due to the poor armor penetration of that build, the only ones who die to that are carries. If Caitlyn could pull that off consistently, I'd agree with you. But she can't, and she'd probably get nerfed if she could, either in the early game or late game.
Frikgeek1 votesOk, let's get one thing straight. Miss Fortune is a shit champ that's never played competitively or in high elo. Her range is shit and she has no mobility. Also, Cait has the same build as Ashe, Trist, and Jinx. IE, Shiv, LW, BT, GA(+boots, of course). If you build Triforce on Jinx, you're doing it wrong. Corki and Ez are the only viable adcs that can build triforce.
Remlap12231 votesAnd you have officially lost all your credibility. It's clear that you have no idea what you're taking about, since I never even suggested building Triforce on jinx.
And let's get another thing straight, Ryze top was considered to be a troll pick until he got picked in LCS. Then all of a sudden, everyone is crying for nerfs. Lucian, Tristana, and Corki too, underwent the same thing. Don't insult my intelligence. I know how to build champs. Especially the ones I main. 
Frikgeek1 votesOk, so you think that Jinx somehow has a different build from Cait(or every other non-caster adc), but that's just not the case. When have you ever seen a pro build something other than 
or 
on her? and I really don't care what shit champ you consider good and LCS worthy. I'm sure that gangplank or MF are really good in Bronze 1, but they're really shit everywhere else. A few shit champs will always turn out to be ok, but most of them will turn out to be actually pretty shit. Out of the 40 or so "troll picks" only a few will ever be played competitively without meta shifts or buffs/nerfs.
Also, don't tell me I've lost "all credibility" because your warped bronze 1 builds don't agree with me.
Remlap12231 votesOh aren't you cool. You looked up my ranked stats. I'm so proud of your detective skills there Sherlock.
I don't know what bridge you crawled out under of, but I don't just face Bronze players in ranked. I wouldn't be getting huge amounts of LP when I win if that was the case. The reason I win is because I'm actually good with the champs, not because I go up against Bronze V greenhorns that don't know how to properly play an ARTS game like League. And like I said before, don't insult my intelligence because I play "troll picks" and "Bronze 1" champions.
You lost all credibility because you aren't giving any reason as to why you build champs the way they do besides "the pros do it." Burden of proof lies on you dipshit. And you shall hence be referred to as dipshit until you fix your sorry ass attitude and insulting me because I'm bronze.
Frikgeek1 votesI'm not insulting your intelligence, I'm just insulting your skill at playing this game. Even if you were silver 1 that's still pretty shit.
The reason that everyone builds the meta builds on adcs is because they work, and building Jinx/Trist/Cait/Ashe with anything else just isn't as effective in dealing damage. Just use a DPS calculator or calculate it yourself, these builds are well researched to proved the most DPS per gold or item slot.
Remlap12231 votesNo, I understand FPS calculations just fine, but I don't think that this is about gold efficiency. I mean, I used your brilliant detective work by looking up your stats too. Am I supposed to be impressed? Do you think you're someone... IMPORTANT?
Forgive me for not having the audacity of playing ARTS since the original DOTA when it was just a mod, like my Platinum V friend who was diamond on season 3. Forgive me that I haven't been playing since season 1 like my Gold I buddy. Forgive me that I didn't have the skill to stay in Silver IV on my first ARTS game I've played ever, while only playing for a year, and got my dirty Bronze peasant butt kicked down to Bronze 1 in less than a month, and lost my promotionals.
But don't question my knowledge of this game. I've learned a helluva lot in the short time I've been playing, like the fact that Gangplank is a great support in the right composition, and nothing alleviates ADC Thresh hook fears like tanking the hook for them and walking away like nothing happened because of your W. Or the fact that AP Miss Fortune is one hell of a lane bully, and building Zhonya's on her in the right composition can turn a lucky blitz pull in the jungle from a bad situation into a complete clusterfuck for the enemy team.
So yeah, I'm not joining TSM and going into the LCS anytime soon, but I also kinda know what thethe fuck I'm doing. I'm not the noob that was pushing the lanes by constantly AAing the minions anymore. I know how to freeze a lane and manage my mana on most champs now. Not everyone that isn't fucking Diamond is your peons. Deal with it. Lots of people don't even play ranked, usually because of dipshits like you.
Nissasah5 votesTo be fair, before his first back he has really bad mana problems. Even after that he can still run out of mana easily if he spams too much. (Though at that point you're a lane bully)
junglerboy163 votesAzir is only a lane bully now because they dumped a bunch of buffs on him while they were handling his mountain of bugs. They really ought to nerf his early game back to what it was like at release, because then he had a very healthy power curve of weak early and strong late. The only reason it wasn't totally healthy (and required buffing) was because their were so many bugs making him very inconsistent.
Chromatic Eagle3 votesIsn't Renekton a lane bully, or do they not like AP ones?
Frikgeek1 votesStop living in Season 3. Renekton gets buttfucked by all the meta ranged toplaners now. Gnar's %hp damage and escapes screw him over in mini, and he straight up out-stats him in mega form. Lissandra just pokes forever and snares you if you actually manage to get close. Ryze does pretty much the same thing, but he gets pretty tanky midgame to the point that he can just stand in your face and out-DPS you.
Chromatic Eagle2 votesSo then they're not really getting rid of lane bullies.
Frikgeek3 votesWell, not really. Those champs aren't really bullies against other ranged champions, they only bully melee. It's more like Riot just hates melee.
ImHerVoice2 votes+1 riot doesn't know what they're talking about look at gnar top. rofl Look at maokai W with percentage damage added to it now.
ImHerVoice2 votes+1
Demonsolder212 votesI thought we stopped trusting riot after yasuo.
FDru2 votesWelcome to Riot balance
"We nerfed the shit out of Hungering Strike because Warwick was too hard to lane against" releases Darius, Diana, Rengar, Jayce, Vi, Zed, etc
MrSc0tty1 votesI must have just never seen a good Azir then.
My last lane against Azir was as Garen. Garen the king of the easily bullied. He outfarmed me by 15-20 CS early and after my first back I but the bullet, burned everything, flashes his ult and killed him with ignite+ult.
After that he played safe and saved his soldiers and I still managed to get him again with my jungler.
iamthegoatofwar1 votesYou have never seen a good azir then I will confirm.
Stars Shaper2 votesAzir Top sucks the moment you understand that you can jump on him when he misuses charge or is close to no mana or is pushing.
And this without gap closers, imagine a Jax...
