Is it troll to not support? Meta bullying

slippykitten·Mar 18, 2015·3 votes·1,717 views

Honest question here. If i pick a non supp champ, go bot with an adc, take farm and kills and we destroy the lane and win the game, should i be reported?

It seems the support role is the most meta thing there is in the game. Every role allows different playstyles, but if you pick supp, you better be my little toby or youre getting reported!

Riot needs to make some open statements for clarity. Either state openly that players are allowed diversity, or state openly that players have to abide by the meta, but dont allow meta bullying to continue.

32 Comments

Poptart EvelynnMar 18, 20154 votes

In Ranked it is not allowed. You have to abide by standard meta or you're not trying to win. Trying new things in ranked is against the rules. You need to go test what works and doesn't in normals then you ask your allies in champ select if they are ok with you trying it in ranked after mastering it in normals. If they say no, then you can't do it.

It's that simple. It's not meta bullying. It's doing what the majority wants.

Found4uMar 18, 20153 votes

I don't think this is a troll. However if you are going to do this I recommend talking to your adc/team first. I don't think you should be reported but you should make sure your team is down with it.

AbiwonKenabiMar 18, 20151 votes

Exactly this. If your team isn't on board with it, you can make the game unpleasant for everyone, especially the ADC, who is trying to cs/get kills, etc. It can make for a bad experience even though you didn't intend it.

mvargusMar 18, 20153 votes

There is a reason for the duo bot-lane and the ADC/support Meta.

The key is that the ADC position is almost always taken by a champ who scales very well with proper itemization and levels, but who will do poorly if they don't have items. They pretty much HAVE to farm early. Kills help, but the key is that they need lots of gold early if they are going to carry the team late. That's why the position is known as ADC or "Attack Damage Carry". They are champs who mostly build attack damage and attack speed items and can carry the late game if they were carried early. They will have abilities, but a large portion of their damage is in their auto-attack.

And most of the people who main ADC understand that problem only too well. If an ADC can't farm, or falls behind on farm, they are often rendered ineffective by midgame when the other laners can squash them like bug.

But that early vulnerability and need to farm means that the ADC has a problem. They need to devote their attention to last hitting, but that leaves them easy pray for jungle ganks or all-ins from their opponent. So the extra champ on the team was designated as "support". They are supposed to escort the ADC until the end of the laning phase and their "job" is simply to keep the ADC alive while trying to deny the other ADC opportunities to farm.

If you select a non support champ (Heimerdinger) and come to Bot-lane with the ADC, you are almost certain to mess up the ADCs last hitting. Anyone who mains an ADC eventually learns a pattern to follow to last hit most effectively, but it almost always assumes that the support won't hit minions unless you have a melee support like Leona or Braum who is using a Relic Shield. An item like Heimerdinger's turrets or a support like Master Yi who will not only attack minions, but often kill them or leave them so low a minion gets the final hit steals the farm from the ADC. It frustrates the ADC quickly.

Then you get those non-support Supports who refuse to ward. I'll admit that when I ADC I rely on my support to do most of the warding early game. I just don't have the spare money to purchase wards every time back as I'm trying to rush I.E and Zerker Greaves. Once I have those I can spare gold, but until then I need every coin so I can keep up or get ahead of the other ADC.

Honestly, if you plan on going bot lane and not-supporting you need the agreement of the ADC or he/she is likely to report you. An ADC who isn't fed almost always takes a lot of abuse for being useless mid and late game and if they feel the "support" was stealing CS they are going to turn around and point the finger of blame there. Some ADCs won't mind. Others will be like me last night when I had 2 games in a room with Heimerdinger non-support (I grumbled, but did not report the player.). Some will just AFK after you disrupt their farming a few times.

My advice to any player thinking of breaking the support meta is to ask first and be prepared to be asked/told to keep to the meta. The meta supports are meta because they offer the most help to an ADC early. bringing someone like Talon to bot lane sounds fun, but he really can't zone the other ADC/support well and offers little to no CC or sustain. (another non-support I got stuck with in a game recently.)

slippykittenMar 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

There is a reason for the duo bot-lane and the ADC/support Meta.

The key is that the ADC position is almost always taken by a champ who scales very well with proper itemization and levels, but who will do poorly if they don't have items. They pretty much HAVE to farm early. Kills help, but the key is that they need lots of gold early if they are going to carry the team late. That's why the position is known as ADC or "Attack Damage Carry". They are champs who mostly build attack damage and attack speed items and can carry the late game if they were carried early. They will have abilities, but a large portion of their damage is in their auto-attack.

And most of the people who main ADC understand that problem only too well. If an ADC can't farm, or falls behind on farm, they are often rendered ineffective by midgame when the other laners can squash them like bug.

But that early vulnerability and need to farm means that the ADC has a problem. They need to devote their attention to last hitting, but that leaves them easy pray for jungle ganks or all-ins from their opponent. So the extra champ on the team was designated as "support". They are supposed to escort the ADC until the end of the laning phase and their "job" is simply to keep the ADC alive while trying to deny the other ADC opportunities to farm.

If you select a non support champ (Heimerdinger) and come to Bot-lane with the ADC, you are almost certain to mess up the ADCs last hitting. Anyone who mains an ADC eventually learns a pattern to follow to last hit most effectively, but it almost always assumes that the support won't hit minions unless you have a melee support like Leona or Braum who is using a Relic Shield. An item like Heimerdinger's turrets or a support like Master Yi who will not only attack minions, but often kill them or leave them so low a minion gets the final hit steals the farm from the ADC. It frustrates the ADC quickly.

Then you get those non-support Supports who refuse to ward. I'll admit that when I ADC I rely on my support to do most of the warding early game. I just don't have the spare money to purchase wards every time back as I'm trying to rush I.E and Zerker Greaves. Once I have those I can spare gold, but until then I need every coin so I can keep up or get ahead of the other ADC.

Honestly, if you plan on going bot lane and not-supporting you need the agreement of the ADC or he/she is likely to report you. An ADC who isn't fed almost always takes a lot of abuse for being useless mid and late game and if they feel the "support" was stealing CS they are going to turn around and point the finger of blame there. Some ADCs won't mind. Others will be like me last night when I had 2 games in a room with Heimerdinger non-support (I grumbled, but did not report the player.). Some will just AFK after you disrupt their farming a few times.

My advice to any player thinking of breaking the support meta is to ask first and be prepared to be asked/told to keep to the meta. The meta supports are meta because they offer the most help to an ADC early. bringing someone like Talon to bot lane sounds fun, but he really can't zone the other ADC/support well and offers little to no CC or sustain. (another non-support I got stuck with in a game recently.)

So what you are saying is if i pick a bot laner to deny the enemy adc all those things instead of traditionally "supporting" my adc getting those things, i didnt achieve the overall benefit?

mvargusMar 18, 20151 votes

If you can do it without killing a ton of minions then I'll applaud your efforts, since if you are heavily zoning the other ADC and support I'm probably killing 5 minions in every wave and collecting gold rapidly.

But many of the "non-supports" I've seen end up killing quite a few minions while trying to harass/kill the other ADC and that means that I can't get all the CS I want and I probably end up having to break from farming to support/save the non-support after he blindly all-ined or worse, neglected wards and a gank comes while my trinket ward is on recharge since I will ward the riverbush when I can if the support doesn't ward it.

That happened in one of the Heimer games last night. I was playing Jinx and not only kept losing CS to Heimer's turrets (after he promised that the lane would be a glorious romp of killing the other ADC), but he never warded and twice died to ganks that I escaped because I was placing wards and playing safe. I ended up playing a hybrid ADC/support and couldn't excel at either. (Jinx doesn't have the abilities to be a support.)

That is the key when you bring out a non-support. You have to succeed without setting your ADC back too much. Honestly, if we end laning at 14 minutes and I'm only at 70CS, but we have 4-5 kills between us I'm not going to get too upset, but when I don't even get to 70 CS at 16 minutes and Heimerdinger had already died 3 times for only 1 kill between the two of us, I was extremely unimpressed with his play as "support."

Aurelius MaximusMar 18, 20152 votes

they have stated this openly.

You must work with your team and try your hardest to win and play nice. Says nothing about playing a particular role.

However, if you are taking an adc cs and kills you would have to have a convincing argument as to you trying your hardest and working with the team in a losing game.

ApexInTheCircleMar 18, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Owl Or Nothing,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Klntmqvc,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-03-18T18:53:31.592+0000)

they have stated this openly.

You must work with your team and try your hardest to win and play nice. Says nothing about playing a particular role.

However, if you are taking an adc cs and kills you would have to have a convincing argument as to you trying your hardest and working with the team in a losing game.

Okay so question I have a question regarding something you said. Taking an adc's cs, so if a laner comes into my jungle and takes say, my golems. And doesn't tell me that should be reportable right? I mean he is working against me and it's keeping me from being at my full potential it should be reportable.

Aurelius MaximusMar 18, 20151 votes

it's report able if he does it with malice.

If no one has said anything and it's beyond the first camp its not reportable, laners take jungle sometimes.

Now if you are like "dawg I need my crugs im behind" and he is like "fuck you" then you can report.

GaleWinUnleashedMar 18, 20151 votes

It depends. Perhaps his reasoning for it is that him taking the jungle camps helps the team more than it would if you took them. Whether or not that's true is a different question, it's his motives that are important in this case.

mvargusMar 18, 20151 votes

If they do it once a report would appear petty. If they do it every time the golems spawn then yes, it would be reportable, especially if you politely asked them to stop and they kept doing it.

I know most junglers will eventually offer their buffs. Blue is often given to a mana hungry midlaner (Leblanc, Anivia, Ahri, Cassiopeia, Azir, Lux can all benefit from blue.) Red can be given to the ADC if they fall behind, or if the fight moves to the other teams jungle I've asked for it when I'm playing ADC as the boost to my damage it gives helps in last hitting and wave clearing so I can push turrets. For me mid/late game the only jungle camp I get very possessive when I jungle about are the raptors due to the smite buff from them. (Yes, I bounce around where I play)

SmokingPuffinMar 18, 20151 votes

You are thinking selfishly of personal power. You should think about what makes your team most likely to succeed.

Generally speaking, a team does better when the ADC has as much gold as possible. If there were some way for the jungler to send all of his gold to the ADC, teams would make that trade 10 times out of 10.

SirsirMar 18, 20152 votes

ADC is far more enforced. ADCs are locked into a certain 17-18 champions (depending on your view of Urgot) and meta wise, 5-6. People are always trying to take supports out of their games, Brand Support, Annie Support, etc. As long as you buy a sightstone your fine.

Sailor MintMar 18, 20152 votes

Breaking the meta isn't reportable offense. Being a jerk is a reportable offense.

If your team (and most importantly, your ADC) is cool with you playing roaming Hecarim support, that's fine. But forcing something like double mid against someone's will is just being a jerk.

Deep Terror NamiMar 18, 20151 votes

The "Meta" is not enforceable. However, if you play in a manner contrary to what the other 4 people are trying to do, it's not going to turn out as well as if you all understood and agreed. The main issue with a Support taking CS is that you and the ADC fight for it if you aren't communicating, and always ends up in a bunch of lost CS, and getting hit by the enemy because of wasteful actions. Don't force your lane partner to fight you for CS, at the very least. Duo Queue with someone that wants to do the same thing you are.

IcyPepperMar 18, 20151 votes

Double jungle is much easier than sharing cs with the adc (the adc is the most item dependent, so you'd be better off siphoning cs elsewhere).

If you really want, try playing a jungler with enough cc to be able to "support" as well. Like Fiddlesticks. Try to share the jungle as much as you can, and gank twice as much (since, well, there's not much time to be farming if you're splitting it). Catch up by farming the enemy's jungle too.

It's tricky to pull off, but double jungle is considered viable by some people

The5lackerMar 18, 20151 votes

Yes, you should be. Not because you're breaking the meta, but because you're a selfish, self-centered bastard who doesn't care about his own team.

slippykittenMar 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Yes, you should be. Not because you're breaking the meta, but because you're a selfish, self-centered bastard who doesn't care about his own team.

You proved my point exactly, thank you. My issue isnt that people use the meta, but that people are vehemently enraged when you dont follow it. If I don't support you and do exactly what you want me to do, I'm self centered? interesting....

SirsirMar 18, 20151 votes

Your team needs vision and peel. If your team has peel, suggest everyone rush the upgraded trinkets (and rush yours first back after 9) and do what you want.

RaptameiMar 18, 20152 votes

{quoted}

You proved my point exactly, thank you. My issue isnt that people use the meta, but that people are vehemently enraged when you dont follow it.

People want to win. The meta is the best way to win. Simple as that.

The5lackerMar 18, 20151 votes

And blindly breaking the meta at the expense of your team is better than blindly following the meta?

mvargusMar 18, 20151 votes

True, no one should blindly follow the meta either. I posted my understanding of why there is an ADC and support in the meta and even said you can go off-meta, but that it does make things more difficult.

Honestly, I've even tried breaking the meta a few times, and I do some slightly off-meta things like taking Diana (who was originally a midlaner) into the jungle after hearing she was an off-meta pick. She's not as good as some, but I found it fun to try out and my team didn't complain as I was effective even if I couldn't carry. (I fell behind too much trying to gank lanes to get them back to parity after they fed.)

stuartk11Mar 18, 20151 votes

As far as off-meta things are concerned, I actually recommend this. Make sure your ADC knows what you're planning first, obviously, but you could completely dominate bottom lane. People are so attached to the meta that if you do something different; they won't know how to deal with it. My favourite but most common thing to do is the double jungle. It can work really well, and the enemy team almost assuredly going to be blaming everyone else on their team if something off-meta works against them. It is their ADCs fault because they could not insta-win a 2 v 1 lane. It was the top laner, the one who gave first blood to the enemy team when he was double ganked by 2 strong early gank champions and died 3 v 1. People are so attached to the meta that they never even try to deal with off-meta teams (Double top counts too :D)

LogJamminMar 18, 20151 votes

I just pre-warn people if I get screwed into being a "support" that I will instead be double adc on the bot lane. Problem solved, they are made well aware of what's going to happen. If they don't like it, then they can support. You do however try to play an aggressive lane and just don't be a dick about CS. after lane phase everything smooths out anyway as long as you have enough cc/tanks. It has ended well for me more often than playing a typical support role.

GaleWinUnleashedMar 18, 20151 votes

It's not so much a problem with the meta as it is a problem with player mentality. As a general rule, people prefer consistency, even if trying something different might produce better results in the right circumstances. It's very very hard for players to accept a different strategy, particularly when the current one still works fine.

slippykittenMar 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

It's not so much a problem with the meta as it is a problem with player mentality. As a general rule, people prefer consistency, even if trying something different might produce better results in the right circumstances. It's very very hard for players to accept a different strategy, particularly when the current one still works fine.

It "works fine" because you are facing people doing the exact same thing, how could it not? When people started taking "non meta" toplaners, the community went crazy and asked for nerfs (which unfortunately came). You're right, the issue is with mentality though. Lb has become a little more popular as supp, simply because she can burst so well, she doesnt really "supp" anyone at all though.

SwollwonderMar 18, 20151 votes

you're assuming this is going to work it usually doesnt

FooDangMar 18, 20151 votes

Meta is king...if im adc and enemy support taking a good portion of farm then i'm just gonna farm till i get a BF sword, come back to lane and destroy you...

SmokingPuffinMar 18, 20151 votes

This depends on your intent. If you believe that picking a second ADC and splitting farm and kills with the first ADC is the best way to win the game, then you're fine.

Probably you don't believe this. Probably you're picking a second ADC for selfish reasons, and not putting the needs of the team first. That's not fine.

I believe the Summoner's Code is fairly clear about this:

Being a good team player begins at champion select. Be open minded when considering the needs of your team. If you're the last one to pick, try to fill a niche in your team that hasn't already been filled. If everyone's picked and something stands out as a deficiency in your team composition, try asking for another player to fill the gap, or change roles to embrace that responsibility yourself. Remember, that by taking on a role you don't normally play, you'll learn more about unfamiliar champions and increase your own skill level.

Elite VoidMar 18, 20151 votes

play whatever the fuck you want. my friend is plat and when he has to support he plays rengar or nidalee support builds damage gets kill and roams and carries the game. just mute your team and give them the middle finger, stupid meta sheep.

Matthias9119Mar 18, 20151 votes

No, it is not punishable. You can play any champ in any role as long as you are making a legitimate effort to work with your team and win the match. Riot has been very clear about this; they will not enforce a meta.

Where I personally draw the line is taking someone else's lane. So if you are last pick and the only person who wants to duo lane is bot, you should go bot. But if you want to run a bruiser or mage or second marksman rather than a champion that is flagged as "support", that's your prerogative.