From a player prospective, why does riot balance mostly around ranked play?

deadlychuck··3 votes·1,116 views

Obviously there needs to be some consideration for ranked when making balance changes, but i mean is it damaging the experience for players by being riot's primary concern?

When you think about someone who plays the game from a ranked prospective vs someone who plays it from an entertainment prospective. If there is a difference in the skill of players in a game, then a competitive scene naturally forms. The competitive players which want to get better and rank higher will play what ever offers them the best chance of doing so. If that means the effective champion pool is only 40 champions at any rank higher than bronze, then so be it. Most will pick the champions which are mathematically the best option, even though at most ranks comfort/experience with a champion is more important than the champion's power.

Yet from an entertainment prospective, playing against the same champions over and over again, because they were balanced around ranked play and not normals, diminishes entertainment value. Yasuo and Lee Sin are good examples of this, the is a massive disparity between their ranked and unranked play rates, and they also tended to be the targets of the most frustration on the boards. Yet they are by no means "OP" when talking about ranked balance. Lee Falls off late, and yasuo is countered by saving an extra exhaust and/or any of a number of tanks. Playing against the same champion isn't necessarily going to be fun the 100th time around, yet it can be balanced. This holds true for any champion, and if it was ranked it'd be met with their counter being picked just as often, if not more often, but we don't see this. I think it's a fair assessment that in normals players are more concerned with their own picks than they are with the opponent's. Where as in ranked, there is equal importance applied to both team's champion picks.

I've seriously got to wonder if this will/has harm(ed) the game in the long term. When the game's balance is made on the assumption that players will care about their opponent's picks when selecting their champion, then wouldn't an environment which players are not privy to that information, or don't care to consider it, unlikely to be balanced?

There is the obvious answer, that viewers of esports want to see more champion variety, even though the players don't really care and will just pick which ever champions are best. Though i'm not a sports viewer so I really can't speak in depth on the topic, but i'd think it'd be similar to physical sports, where the roles might be the same (champions in this case), but the different players are the ones which keep it entertaining and each match different.

23 Comments

LostFr0st2 votes

They don't balance around competitive play... The only time they do that is the couple patches leading up to Worlds.

deadlychuck1 votes

"Ranked" == "Competitive"

They're mostly interchangeable, but you do bring up a good point, i'll change the title.

LostFr0st2 votes

Ok, new question then. What else would they balance around? I think balancing around what most people play is the right choice tbh.

deadlychuck1 votes

The obvious answer would be normals.

Also, I think you just have the perception that ranked is the most commonly played game mode, because most league of legends based entertainment is done in ranked. It seems far more likely that players play normals, for a few reasons, but without any stats we can't say for sure. The argument was made assuming the difference is negligible. Basing it on the mentality of the players rather than the number of them.

LostFr0st1 votes

I'm more than sure most games are probably ranked. Can't really count blind pick due to mirror matches, and Draft we know had population issues on some servers so they removed it.

If they balance around normals then yes, you're right that the data would be inconsistent due to level gaps and how hard people are trying.

deadlychuck1 votes

I'm more than sure most games are probably normal.

Neither of us is more right.

This still just sidesteps the point being made here. It's about which demographic is more sensitive to balance changes made on their behalf. Ranked or Normal?

Power balance vs Entertainment balance

LostFr0st2 votes

mmm both ranked and normals are entertainment and power balance; neither is only one.

Ranked is more accurate to balance around since match fairness is more strict. ^this is what I should have put the first time, now that I've thought about it more.

Guyy Fieri2 votes

{quoted}

Ok, new question then. What else would they balance around? I think balancing around what most people play is the right choice tbh.

It is so hard to rate what "most people play". Even in normals, there are flavor of the month champs who see some sporadic play because maybe they just wanna play that champ or they just got a new skin or whatever. Balancing based on play rate is effectively what you are suggesting, would only confirm that those flavor of the month selections would get buffed just for getting played.

LostFr0st1 votes

I better stated what I meant down below; I was talking more about sample size and fair matchmaking as the stuff ranked better represents compared to normals. It did kinda sound like I meant play-rate didn't it^^"

EndlessSorcerer2 votes

If you want a game to be remotely competitive or balanced, you have to balance it around higher-tier ranked play. You need to balance the game around players who actually know what they are doing and are playing properly.

That isn't really negotiable.

Quite frankly, climbing the ladder is what many players find to be fun. Constantly learning and improving in a competitive game and challenging yourself is enjoyable for many players and what attracts many of them to this game.

deadlychuck1 votes

You really don't have to balance around ranked to make competitive balanced, look at games like SSB where competitive is still very popular even though a significant portion of the character pool is unusable at moderately level play and up.. The ban system is what accounts for this, it allows some champions to be insanely OP for competitive play.

Except we don't know if the number of people with that specific kind of mind set outnumber the people who just want to play champions they find enjoyable and get better at them. Where as the player who plays to "learn, improve, and challenge themselves" will not care nearly as much which champions they play.

Brutalitops012 votes

Riot typically tries to balance around a platinum level of play normally, and tries to make sure that something is balanced for both the bronze players and the challenger players. Sometimes, though, that's just impossible with certain champion's kits. For example, when Kalista was strong, I never saw her unless I was playing her. However, she was seen all the time in competitive and higher tiers of play. Even when played in my ranks, she just wasn't that good, and this is before she got gutted. In the end, she had to be gutted until she could get reworked because it was impossible to make her balanced at the highest level of play without making her garbage at the lower levels of play.

As for Yasuo and Lee Sin, they're the kind of high skill cap champions that typically attract a lot of players because they make flashy plays a lot. While they are balanced if you know how to deal with them, they're the targets of a lot of hate on the Boards from people who don't know how to deal with them. However, their popularity is more of a result of how fun their kits are to play than how strong they are.

The other thing is that Riot is really trying to push it so that any champion can counter any other champion so long as you know what you're doing. Take Taliyah as a good example. Her kit naturally punishes champions with dashes for dashing through her minefield, but it's incredibly easy to play around if you're smart. However, the Taliyah player can also pretty easily play around you trying to avoid her minefield by throwing you back into it with her W if she's good enough. A lot of their more recent releases are like that. Not specific "counters" to anyone, but can outplay anyone when played well. Look at the assassin reworks. While general nerfs across the board in terms of damage, they also got a lot more utility out of their kits, allowing them to outplay people when they're skilled enough. While some of them weren't exactly successful at this (looking at you, Rengar with the free crit), others, like Katarina, were spot on for making the champion have more clear situations of strength and making them easier to be outplayed while giving them more opportunities to do the outplaying.

In the end, why you see champions like Yasuo or Lee Sin so often has absolutely nothing to do with how good they are and absolutely everything to do with how much fun they are.

deadlychuck1 votes

I specifically said it wasn't to do with how good they are.

I guess i could summarize the point a little bit simply... Should riot balance around enjoyment or power?

Yes, a champion like lee sin or yasuo are fun to play, but in unranked having seen them constantly, they become unfun to play against. It's like the exact opposite of riot's philosophy with the game modes, where they don't want to spoil us with the same experience else it diminishes the value. Yet they have no problem with letting a couple of champions run rampant in normals, making them extremely enjoyable to play against.

Guyy Fieri1 votes

{quoted}

I specifically said it wasn't to do with how good they are.

I guess i could summarize the point a little bit simply... Should riot balance around enjoyment or power?

Yes, a champion like lee sin or yasuo are fun to play, but in unranked having seen them constantly, they become unfun to play against. It's like the exact opposite of riot's philosophy with the game modes, where they don't want to spoil us with the same experience else it diminishes the value. Yet they have no problem with letting a couple of champions run rampant in normals, making them extremely enjoyable to play against.

Newsflash dude. Unless you use the ban hammer on Lee Sin and Yasuo, the same thing happens in ranked. And yes they are just as annoying if not more so (because generally people pulling out those champs in ranked actually know what they're doing. This issue isn't a question of ranked/unranked balance. It's a question of how can we balance Lee Sin and Yasuo for ALL modes of gameplay.

A Basic Island2 votes

this thread is absolutely retarded

why wouldn't they balance around ranked/competitive play?

you want them to balance around what people who suck do?

they already somewhat do that by making sure noob stompers are weak

deadlychuck1 votes

That's not at all what i'm saying. Some of the best players might not play ranked at all.

It's not about who they balance it around in terms of power, it's about balance in terms of a gameplay experience. Another way which kinda leads to the concept i'm talking about is considering play rate over win rate, which winrate is currently held up as the gold standard for balance.

A champion with a 55% win rate, but a 2% play rate, might be more "balanced" in this regard than a champion with a 47% win rate and a 25% play rate. Because while they might be likely to win, they aren't constantly forcing a specific experience out of a game.

420 grams1 votes

The only difference between normal games and ranked games is that one says it's ranked. Once on the rift, it's the same game

deadlychuck1 votes

Only when it applies to draft pick.

There is a quite objective difference between relative champion power with partial team information. If you know some of the champions on the enemy team, you have an idea of what they will be good at, what kind of damage they will do, and who lack or possess the skills to play around that.

Yasuo is great, until you get into load screen and they have 2 tanks, 3 bruisers, with jayce ADC. :P

ScissorsNstuff1 votes

they consider what bad players think too

they are just a lot slower to react to what probably isn't a real issue

deadlychuck1 votes

It's not about "bad players" these players could be competitively at any skill level, bronze to masters. The point is that a player who plays with the intent to enjoy a game loses interest in the game when it's the same champions 50% of the time. Though a player who plays the game to improve and boost their rank (mind you this might be the same person at different times), doesn't care as much about how often the champion occurs and more about how powerful the champions are.

Playrate vs Winrate, "balance" in a sense.

ScissorsNstuff1 votes

riot doesn't balance to make things played 50% of the time or whatever

most of the time what people think is strong isn't even that strong, its more a matter of theme. I promise you there will always be a pair of tits in the top ten played champs. Its not because of balance its because people like sex and people like to try out what other people are playing and take a liking to simple things they can get a grasp on. Me personally, I don't care if the opponent is the same over and over as long as I get to do what I want. You're describing a subgroup within a subgroup that can be satiated through the use of manipulative game design tactics like perfect imbalance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e31OSVZF77w

Players like this are just a bump in the road to bigger things that are more easily dealt with through passive means.

The Sword Saint1 votes

In order for anyone to 'improve' ever, the focus of balancing has to be primarily on the chances each champion has of winning when played by and against similarly skilled players. Playrate is irrelevant here. What you are suggesting is that champions should be buffed or nerfed based on how often people play them, but this is a function not just of raw individual strength in the current meta but of how interesting a character is to players, how fun it is to play as them, how widely appreciated their fantasy is, and other things.

Some fantasies, like being a kickass monk or a wandering swordsman, are just more interesting and popular to most people. So popular that players, even in ranked, are willing to play them even when they have 45% winrates just because they'd rather play that fun champ they feel like a badass on and have to work harder to win than otherwise rather than play a 55% winrate champ they have no interest in whatsoever or who bores the fuck out of them.

You'd need to make large scale power shifts amoung the champions noone gives a shit about because they don't want to play them in order to make them played as much as the ones people do like, to the point where it would be auto lose to pick anything remotely fun or interesting instead of the over the top strong boring picks. Such a world is far more likely to see the playerbase drop out and find something fun to do than a world where champion power is balanced around competitive fairness rather than trying to give everyone the most equal share of the limelight as you can, at any cost.

If your main concern is seeing more variety in picks you should be arguing for more resources to be put into lore events, skins, reworks, and model updates to turn those champions noone's interested in into more appealing choices. Even then though the word 'niche' exists for a a reason, and it only does players who are interested in niche choices a disservices to have all the rarely picked champs modified to be more genericly popular picks.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Riot stated years ago they wanted the game to become a major electronic sport by being competitive. Which personally, I'd say has what started ruining the game.

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