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its funny how fervor is being buffed back to op status after being weak for a couple of weeks.

Critmaster Garen··57 votes·2,746 views

meanwhile grasp is trash since the nerf to its sustain half a year ago, because of noodle fights between tank ekko and maokai on top lane, who were running the mastery and were not able to kill each other.

leaving every fighter who doesnt have some form of hard cc without a keystone in resolve.

the resolve tree was supposed to be the mastery tree aimed at divers, juggernauts, wardens and vanguards. right now it only gets its job done for 50% of the fighters, and only for those who can use a keystone aimed at engage tanks.

can grasp please finally get some work done?

edit.: proposed change:

  • after 4 seconds in combat, when you auto attack with grasp, it deals 3% of your max health in damage to the enemy (same as current value)
  • restores 1.5% of your maximum health for each enemy champion nearby. (halved for ranged champions, deals magic damage)

keeps the sustain managable in lane and 1v1 situations. buffs the mastery in skirmishes and team fights.

adjust the range of the sustain effect and its cooldown as neccessary.

29 Comments

JerulEon8 votes

Grasp is almost unnoticeable outside of laning phase. In team fights, you can barely tell you proc the effect. But that's just my opinion.

Marshbouy6 votes

So there isn't an issue with incredibly tanky champions dealing lots of damage? Also, since when was grasp weak? It's still being taken on a lot of champions, until CoC became busted at least.

Critmaster Garen21 votes

{quoted}

So there isn't an issue with incredibly tanky champions dealing lots of damage?

no. isnt that what fighters and juggernauts in specific are designed to do?

and its not like riot even saw an issue with graps damage or the mastery in particular on fighters. it was literally only because of tanks and ekko picking it up and not being able to kill each other with grasps sustain, combined with their own inbuilt sustain and defense.

Also, since when was grasp weak? It's still being taken on a lot of champions, until CoC became busted at least.

it was being avoided by everyne who could even before CoC was released. almost every fighter or juggernaut was already going for stormraider, fervor or even dft before preseason hit.

a good few of them them didnt even go into resolve at all, even though youd expect them to.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

wtf !!! unless u speak for Juggernaut... Why would u want Divers take grasp ?? even without key other tree are better, unless u want to go tankier and then u go for resolve.

Don't say fighter : it include Juggernaut and Divers.

Ahristocats10 votes

you can use whatever argument you want

but don't say that grasp isn't weak, it falls off a cliff in late game

PlanetWarwick1 votes

Juggernauts are dumb

AirKingNeo4 votes

OP status

Oh no, +6 AD and from 2 less stacks to stack it, SO BROKEN. No seriously, it's been on the PBE for quite a bit and there seems to be no problem. If there was, expect it changed tomorrow.

Meanwhile Grasp lets Poppy and Malphite have free laning phases. Shen and Maokai are just a bit too nerfed. Grasp isn't the problem.

ShaolinToilet1 votes

Poppy takes courage now

Critmaster Garen3 votes

{quoted}

First, are we talking about a replacement for Grasp or Warlord's?

As with any suggestion the numbers would probably need tuning, but yeah that sounds good to me. As it stands right now both Masteries just bother me to no end. Resolve is not the place for a single target damage tool. If Riot MUST have some kind of damage Keystone in Resolve, it should be an AoE sustained damage option since AoE sustained damage is kind of the whole thing of Tanks and Juggernauts alike.

And on the Warlord's front, it irritates me that the tree devoted to sustained damage and in-combat health sustain has no health sustain option for anyone other than auto-attackers. That makes it an option for Marksmen and Olaf, basically.

i was talking about grasp. i mean another possibility would be something like:

you deal 3% of your maximum health as magic damage on next auto attack, and heal 1.5 % of your health per enemy champion nearby.

i think it was possible to ramp up the sustain when youre fighting multiple targets. it would still be kept weak in 1v1 situations, while not being totally useless.

of course it would be possible to fiddle with the cooldown and the damage.

in fact i wouldnt mind if the mastery would be changed to a longer cooldown and stronger effect. but then it should probably be changed to a general cooldown instead of requiring to be in combat for that long.

GULAG 4 U3 votes

How exactly is it op again?

Spicy Rice3 votes

Quick question, how exactly is fervor becoming op? All that's really happening is that you need 1 less auto for max stacks (on melee), and you get 4 more ad at max damage

Critmaster Garen3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Spicy Rice,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KeTAEnNW,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2016-11-27T17:57:57.824+0000)

Quick question, how exactly is fervor becoming op? All that's really happening is that you need 1 less auto for max stacks (on melee), and you get 4 more ad at max damage

its basically what it was in previous season, only granting bonus ad now.

means those 64 ad will be able to crit, they will be able to trigger lifesteal, they will factor into abilities. basically everything that bruiser assassins would love about the mastery, after riot changed some of their scalings in their kits from base damage to bonus ad.

and its going to be even stronger on marksmen than previous season.

if this change goes through, im definitely going to switch to bruiser fiora, considering fervor now crits on her e and factors into her passive while being as easily stackable as in season 6.

Dolasaur1 votes

For marksmen, the AD version (even improved) is weaker than the on-hit version for almost all situations. With IE, you still need about 70% crit chance before the per-hit AD damage is equal to the old on-hit damage. Since you have 3 crit items, that means you have to sacrifice a life steal item, Last Whisper item, a defensive item, or boots. Some champs are happy with that tradeoff, but it is a tradeoff, just to get equal damage to the on-hit version. And until you get to that 70% crit including IE (which is going to cost at least like 8000g), your autos do less than they did before. Plus, since the weaker part is the early game, you have relative anti-snowball to factor in.

I know nothing about bruiser assassins, except that I hate them because they kill me ; ;

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

For marksmen, the AD version (even improved) is weaker than the on-hit version for almost all situations. With IE, you still need about 70% crit chance before the per-hit AD damage is equal to the old on-hit damage. Since you have 3 crit items, that means you have to sacrifice a life steal item, Last Whisper item, a defensive item, or boots. Some champs are happy with that tradeoff, but it is a tradeoff, just to get equal damage to the on-hit version. And until you get to that 70% crit including IE (which is going to cost at least like 8000g), your autos do less than they did before. Plus, since the weaker part is the early game, you have relative anti-snowball to factor in.

I know nothing about bruiser assassins, except that I hate them because they kill me ; ;

youre not factoring it into lifesteal and abilities. it becomes as valuable as the old fervor long before you get 70% crit.

also, no. you dont have to sacrifice anything. item 3031 item 3046 item 3087 item 3072 item 3033 item 3006

is a full buld with above 70% crit, lifesteal, and armor pen. i dont see where adc have to sacrifice anything to basically become yasuo these days.

Dolasaur1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KeTAEnNW,comment-id=0006000000000000,timestamp=2016-11-28T21:36:47.840+0000)

youre not factoring it into lifesteal and abilities. it becomes as valuable as the old fervor long before you get 70% crit.

also, no. you dont have to sacrifice anything. item 3031 item 3046 item 3087 item 3072 item 3033 item 3006

is a full buld with above 70% crit, lifesteal, and armor pen. i dont see where adc have to sacrifice anything to basically become yasuo these days.

"Since you have 3 crit items, that means you have to sacrifice a life steal item, Last Whisper item, a defensive item, or boots"

"defensive item"

No GA or BV etc. (300 hp on BT is nice, but you're still super squishy.) You'll be fine if all you have to do is kite Udyr. But you're still dying in half a second if Malphite or Sejuani ults your team. Not every ADC needs to build a defensive item every game, to be sure. But now you're in the position where you have to choose between that and getting as much damage from masteries as you did before.

Life steal on it isn't a big issue early on. If you just have Doran's, then you're getting 3% health off like 50 pre-mitigation damage, so <1 health per auto. If you rush a Vamp Scepter (or derivative), you're delaying your crit build, and 900g in the early-mid game is nothing to sneeze at.

Ability scaling does partially counterbalance that for some marksmen. But I was talking about marksmen in general, not just the ones with high AD ratios. Anyone building Runaan's lost way more on-hit damage to secondary targets than they gained in ability damage, for example. (And Kog can build Guinsoo's and lose even more lol.) But again, that's only some marksmen.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

"Since you have 3 crit items, that means you have to sacrifice a life steal item, Last Whisper item, a defensive item, or boots"

"defensive item"

kk

item 3139 instead of bt.

which marksman does not have ad scaling abilities?

Dolasaur1 votes

which marksman does not have ad scaling abilities?

None? I didn't say they didn't have ad scaling abilities. I said some don't have high AD ratios. Implicitly, I meant immediately useful ones, particularly ones that could counter the early game loss of damage from Fervor going AD -> on-hit. (Late game with >70% crit, AD Fervor is just better for marksmen.)

Lots of abilities with AD scaling aren't going to benefit [much] from Fervor; Caitlyn QR, Jinx W, Jhin WR, and others are usually going to be poke damage, and Lucian will usually just have 2 stacks after doing E-AA-Q for his Q. Kog only has his R, and it's pretty weak scaling. Kalista has fairly nice scaling, except that her autos only do 90% to start, which cancels out the vast majority of any benefits she would have relatively gotten.

There are some ADCs that are going to use their AD scaling abilities later in battle or constantly throughout it, like Tristana/Twitch (since they trigger after a bunch of autos), Vayne/Ezreal/Corki (low cooldown).

But that's just some marksmen having fair synergy with it. Kog's AD scaling on ult is almost like Nocturne's fear AP scaling; it's there, but not generally super significant.

Sire Hippington3 votes

I agree on resolve still needing work, one good mastery(CoC) doesn't make it a good tree, and that mastery is only useable by champs with reliable hard cc.

However, i really wouldn't say Fervor is buffed back to OP, it's still a far strech to the S6 version. The buffs will just hopefully mean it's no longer a noob trap on most champs.

Blast Deadlift2 votes

I agree

Rebonack2 votes

For what it's worth, I think grasp should be turned into a pure sustain Keystone. Ferocity is the tree for in-combat sustain. Resolve is the tree for out of combat sustain. If anything, Warlord's should be modified to make it attractive to a wider range of champions. So what's going on here?

Riot's probably just afraid of something like old Perseverance being a thing. What was that, early Season 4 when it healed you for 3% of your missing HP per second?

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

For what it's worth, I think grasp should be turned into a pure sustain Keystone. Ferocity is the tree for in-combat sustain. Resolve is the tree for out of combat sustain. If anything, Warlord's should be modified to make it attractive to a wider range of champions. So what's going on here?

Riot's probably just afraid of something like old Perseverance being a thing. What was that, early Season 4 when it healed you for 3% of your missing HP per second?

how about turning it into somethign similar to a hecarim w?

you deal a small flat amount of magic damage to every enemy in a certain area every 3 seconds while in combat, and heal a % of your missing health per enemy that is hit by the damage.

Rebonack1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KeTAEnNW,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2016-11-27T17:34:39.730+0000)

how about turning it into somethign similar to a hecarim w?

you deal a small flat amount of magic damage to every enemy in a certain area every 3 seconds while in combat, and heal a % of your missing health per enemy that is hit by the damage.

First, are we talking about a replacement for Grasp or Warlord's?

As with any suggestion the numbers would probably need tuning, but yeah that sounds good to me. As it stands right now both Masteries just bother me to no end. Resolve is not the place for a single target damage tool. If Riot MUST have some kind of damage Keystone in Resolve, it should be an AoE sustained damage option since AoE sustained damage is kind of the whole thing of Tanks and Juggernauts alike.

And on the Warlord's front, it irritates me that the tree devoted to sustained damage and in-combat health sustain has no health sustain option for anyone other than auto-attackers. That makes it an option for Marksmen and Olaf, basically.

Dengeden2 votes

It wasn't OP on anyone, anymore than Grasp was OP on Poppy (waitaminute...).

Garen is weak, get over it. Grasp breaks actual champions like Mundo.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

It wasn't OP on anyone, anymore than Grasp was OP on Poppy (waitaminute...).

Garen is weak, get over it. Grasp breaks actual champions like Mundo.

even if buffing grasp would mean buffing mundo. hes trash right now anyways and a buff like that would be miniscule to him. and grasp was not nerfed because of mundo.

poppy goes colossus now. as long as she can reliably trigger it, grasp isnt going to be stronger on her, even after a buff.

Dengeden1 votes

Mundo was nerfed because of Grasp at the very least. Both he and Grasp were nerfed repeatedly. He was its main abuser on release. And SotA's too but that's another story.

I never said it would break Poppy. I said it wasn't OP on Poppy. In the same sense that Fervor wasn't OP on ADCs.

King of Mongoose2 votes

tank buffs

stop please LOL

HazyCloud71 votes

Yeah. Fervor contributed as much as anything else this season to damage creep.

Seenan1 votes

Maokai Maokai Maokai Maokai Maokai Maokai Muhaha.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

the resolve tree was supposed to be the mastery tree aimed at divers, juggernauts, wardens and vanguards. right now it only gets its job done for 50% of the fighters, and only for those who can use a keystone aimed at engage tanks.

For Divers ? lmao don't joke...

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