Something I'm genuinely confused about

dunder kill·Feb 17, 2017·49 votes·2,925 views

When talking about champions the community doesn't like (lets use as an example) the conversation goes something like this

Person A: I don't think Lee is a big problem right now. The guy is sitting at a 48-49% win rate

Person B: Well he also has a 35% play rate which should majorly deflate his winrate. He's definately overtuned. He has absolutely no weaknesses.

Another example

has a 53% win rate with a 30% play rate. She's completely broken.

However, if you use this same logic with a champion that the community does like, it goes like this

Person A: I think is pretty broken right now. He has a 55% play rate with a 52% win rate

Person B: No clue what you're talking about. Nothing wrong with that. He has weaknesses. He's actually very balanced.

Huh?

76 Comments

EedatFeb 17, 201734 votes

Oh boy..... You mentioned LeeSin without thoroughly bashing him a minimum of 10 times.

RIP your thread

AnidanFeb 18, 20176 votes

Exhibit A: just down the page a bit, a whole tangent devoted solely to Lee, and not anything else the poster said. Not addressing the observation he noted, only Lee.

lilycuFeb 19, 20171 votes

Why do you bash lee? It's not like he sined or anything...

MissingKayoFeb 17, 201719 votes

People whine about whatever they don't like. There's no other rhyme or reason to it.

ArakadiaFeb 18, 20172 votes

Actually there is reason.

I hate the fuck out of Yasuo not for jokes, but because escaping him feels like a wasted effort often.

And you literally just contradicted yourself. Saying there is no reason, but than saying the reason "whatever they don't like".

MissingKayoFeb 18, 20172 votes

"no other"

Photos of GhostsFeb 18, 201711 votes

No one ever said he's very balanced lol, we just said he's fair to face and not as irritating. You seem to forget that this is a game, it's supposed to be somewhat enjoyable. If the tolerable champs are OP, it's ok, the issue is when a shitlord like Lee is OP for 5 years in a row.

CowseedFeb 18, 20171 votes

You logic is horrible. I have to slap myself in the face when people compain about Caitlyns 'unavoidable combo' but then when Jihn has the one thing the boards dispise, high winrate and play rate, you are somehow saying that his removing half a tanks health bar with one shot is 'fun'.

Photos of GhostsFeb 18, 20172 votes

We didn't say it's fun. We said it's one of the least horrifying champions to have that kind of power on. And my logic is flawless. Fuck this "competitive" bullshit, what matters is enjoyment first and foremost. Competitive is the adjective, the noun is G A M E A M E M E E

CowseedFeb 19, 20171 votes

I'm done.

We said it's one of the least horrifying champions to have that kind of power on

So if caitlyn was to have her kit swapped with jihn it'd be fine because jihn is not a horrifying champ so anything on him doesn't feel bad?

Your logic is flawed because if any champion is winning then yes you are not going to have fun being on the other end. And yes. It is a game. Meaning there are times when you are supposed to grow a pair and solve issues on your own. THAT is fun.

MogarlFeb 19, 20172 votes

Umm... no? What kind of logic is that? If Jhin swapped their kit with Caitlyn then he'd be the frustrating one, and people wouldn't mind Caitlyn as much. Functionally Jhin's kit is less frustrating his only hard CC is a skillshot with a fairly long cooldown. While he currently out stats people, he is otherwise reasonably fair to play against. Caitlyn on the other hand has an incredibly obnoxious kit, she has the highest static AA range, and if that didn't make positioning tough she also has traps that can make maneuvering around the lane incredibly tedious.

His logic is fairly reasonable as far as enjoyment of the game goes. People aren't as angry when a champion feels fair to play against and is overtuned, but people are angrier about a champion that feels unfair to play against and is overtuned.

The consequence may still be that you lose, but against Jhin people leave the game far less disgruntled than against Caitlyn. People are complaining now because they're sick of seeing Jhin every other game.

Photos of GhostsFeb 19, 20171 votes

How do you even breathe o_0

CowseedFeb 19, 20171 votes

Well you see, mamals have these things called 'lungs' just above there abdomen area. The daiphram located below the stomach contracts and relaxes causing the the lungs to expand and contract and each time they expand they create a, I guess you could call it 'negative' are pressure almost like a vacuum that sucks in air into that space created that lacks air. When the lungs contract they push out the air.

This continues until one dies and the the air that is drawn in and expended circulate oxygen thoughout the body and whatnot. I'm not a biology student so I am not too adept at this kind of stuff so i'm just speaking from memory. But there is this site you can use to search for this type of thing - http://www.google.com.

You can either click this or copy and paste it in that little bar at the top.

Best princess EUFeb 17, 20175 votes

you summarize entire pages of discussion about jhin with arguments and example of videos in one line that says "i don't see" ?¿?

no wonder you're not understanding

MinaZer0Feb 17, 20177 votes

"i don't see" ?¿?

LeeSin

THE RlVER KlNGFeb 18, 20175 votes

YOU SAID IT THANK YOU

hunterspecFeb 17, 20174 votes

easy. because everyone on the forums are whiny pussies about every single thing. my advice is to ignore everyone on this shithole of a site and reddit.

Photos of GhostsFeb 18, 20173 votes

How about the game has issues and we've got to point them out?

ArakadiaFeb 18, 20175 votes

Why would you even be on the boards if your going to just ignore everyone? What type of logic is that?

PennsFeb 17, 20174 votes

Well Jhin does have weaknesses, he is just op with lethality now. But Lee... eh.

dunder killFeb 18, 201719 votes

Lee has weaknesses too. They're just different than Jhin's. They have different strengths too. For example, I dont recall the last time Lee crit me for 1600 from 3000 range

Asayake 5150glowFeb 18, 20178 votes

{quoted}

Lee has weaknesses too. They're just different than Jhin's. They have different strengths too. For example, I dont recall the last time Lee crit me for 1600 from 3000 range

To be fair, I can easily remember the last time Lee did 1600 damage with his R+Q+Q, which is targeted.

dunder killFeb 18, 201711 votes

Its also melee

Asayake 5150glowFeb 18, 20175 votes

{quoted}

Its also melee

It's also hard CC which can be AoE and a dash for Lee. I mean, yes there's a weakness, but it's not a very big one.

dunder killFeb 18, 20179 votes

Its a pretty huge weakness lol. You're actually comparing a melee range combo doing the same damage as a 3000 range ability.

Think about that for a second

Asayake 5150glowFeb 18, 20175 votes

{quoted}

Its a pretty huge weakness lol. You're actually comparing a melee range combo doing the same damage as a 3000 range ability.

Think about that for a second

It's also undodgable

Jhin R, on the other hand... is dodgeable and telegraphed by the first three shots.

dunder killFeb 18, 20175 votes

It is dodgeable. You see him coming lol

GULAG 4 UFeb 18, 20174 votes

Considering the fact that lee sin's ward hop range isn't big, it's not unrealistic to stay out of its range. And if he ward hop Q, then he can't rqq.

LimrickFeb 18, 20171 votes

Ward>W>Flash>R>Q>Q is literally the Insec combo, which is Lee's most famous combo. The distance he closes with that is pretty damn far.

GULAG 4 UFeb 18, 20172 votes

Yeah but he needs to be IN YOUR FACE with ward hop otherwise the flash wouldn't work. The reason why people praise the insec kick is because it's risky as hell, you need to get close as fuck to the enemy team.

LimrickFeb 18, 20171 votes

It's not that risky when hes super tanky and can just as easily hop away if things go badly.

GULAG 4 UFeb 19, 20171 votes

Lee sin builds 2 or 3 damage items in a row, so yes, until he reaches late game where he's not tanky enough to tank damage, eh yeah.

MannnyFeb 18, 20175 votes

You cant compare a single autoattack to a Lee Sin Combo. They both do different things in different situations lol

Asayake 5150glowFeb 18, 20178 votes

{quoted}

You cant compare a single autoattack to a Lee Sin Combo. They both do different things in different situations lol

He's talking about the last shot from a Jhin ult, I believe.

CowseedFeb 18, 20172 votes

....But.... That's 3 spells. 1 ranged, 2 melee.... Jihn can kill you with his last ult shot at twice the distance lee can reach you from.

PennsFeb 18, 20171 votes

The main thing that makes me say Lee has "no" weaknesses is that, no matter how out of position he is, he will get away most of the time. Seriously, you fucked up? Just ult a target away and it couldnt catch up with 2 flashes lol.

Not xPekeFeb 18, 20174 votes

Just because he has weaknesses doesn't mean he's not slightly overtuned.

He's been probably a top 3 ADC since his release, and still is.

SpecterVonBarenFeb 18, 20174 votes

It's almost as if the board (Outside of memes and games) is not a hive mind with one unified opinion on every champ/item/objective/stat/whatever.

CowseedFeb 18, 20171 votes

It somewhat is a hive mind. The first opinion to reach 50 upvotes usually has dominance of the boards for a while. If a 'Jihn is $#@^ broken!' thread had gotten 50 upvotes then you can bet your ass that half the people that actually upvoted these 'Jihn is fair even when he's not fair' threads would probably be on a different side.

ArakadiaFeb 18, 20173 votes

You sortta left out the fact that the meta heavily favors Jhin and hes abusing itemization.

Sexy Jack RabbitFeb 18, 20176 votes

You sorta left out that he was over-performing long before the meta started to favor him and his itemization. He's been almost sole pick or ban in the LCS for months now. It's not like he suddenly rose to popularity and unlocked some new found strength because of lethality.

Papa AndreiFeb 18, 20172 votes

Ita kind of like its a semi one shot anti squishy meta for months now....

ArakadiaFeb 19, 20172 votes

He was never over-performing until lethality/armor pen ADC's grew to be ridiculous. And ya know what? Practically everything that could favor him, does.

Alot of reliable assassins such as Zed aren't as good as they have been in the past. Jhin loves a meta where someone like Zed isn't strong or common.

Damage creep helps him burst you down, and than sprint away, and helps him executes get within kill range sooner.

Jhin can bully late game hyper carries, utility ADC's like Ashe, and crit ADC's because none of them are in meta. If you aren't strong early or can't abuse lethality, you probably can't be a very good marksmen.

Lethality, and before preseason armor-pen, has been very good on him for a very long time.

He just got a fantastic skin that even had fanart before the skin was made.

He's satisfying af.

He is strong early and mid, which is meta because late game is an uncommon dream.

And he can use Edge of Night + Youmuus to be EVEN safer, while doing bonkers damage, being mobile, and not losing out on any other stat. Unlike other ADC's, Jhin doesn't need AS or crit to be effective and amplify his damage, because all his damage scales off his AD. Why buy AS when it only gives you AD, but you can get MR, AD, AND lethality from something like Edge of Night?

Sexy Jack RabbitFeb 19, 20172 votes

Good to know you're a fanboy, so we can end this discussion quick.

But no, he was over-performing before Lethality ADC's were strong. Even in the Crit Meta where Ashe, Jinx and Caitlyn reigned supreme he was performing excessively well.

If you seriously think Assassins are under-performing right now, specifically Zed, I don't know what to tell you besides "Your average skilled Zed player is averging at a 58% win rate right now." The same can be said for Talon, Leblanc, Kha'Zix and Rengar who are all performing extremely well right now.

Jhin is performing too well, and Riot has already agreed on this with Upcoming nerfs to his ultimate and the lethality on one of his core items.

If you don't agree, don't reply. Thanks.

ArakadiaFeb 19, 20171 votes

I dunno where your getting your information, but according to op.gg (which is one of the more reliable sites according to Riot), he has a mere 50% winrate.

But no, he was over-performing before Lethality ADC's were strong. Even in the Crit Meta where Ashe, Jinx and Caitlyn reigned supreme he was performing excessively well.

Prove it with data or logic. Sure he wasn't weak during that time, but I dunno how you got it into your head that he was "performing excessively well".

The same can be said for Talon, Leblanc, Kha'Zix and Rengar who are all performing extremely well right now.

Go ahead and list all the best assassins. And than act like that applies to all assassins.

Jhin is performing too well, and Riot has already agreed on this with Upcoming nerfs to his ultimate and the lethality on one of his core items.

Yeah, I think the ult nerf is 100% deserved. But suddenly your agreeing with me? You seem to think that he was one of the best, if not OP, ADC's before lethality/armor pen was his best build. Honestly, i dunno what to say. Because all I have been saying is that they should focus on nerfing lethality, than if necessary take a closer look at Jhin. Its not Jhin's numbers that are causing him to be a top tier ADC, but the meta, itemization, etc. Yes his numbers ares strong, but they aren't the reason he is one of the best ADC's atm.

If you don't agree, don't reply. Thanks.

What a cop-out.

NastyMcOutplayFeb 18, 20173 votes

the board and thereddit are stupid

MinaZer0Feb 17, 20171 votes

Jhin is getting a nerf soon to his over-bearing Utility on his ult, he shouldn't have alot of damage AND utility especially with his current player based statistics.

Src: https://gyazo.com/b9af0c1b73f5e14273e64699c3e9a7f9

Also its mostly subjective whether or not the person commenting is a Jhin main or has had bad run in with Jhin..

BlakiepugFeb 18, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=ILittle IMonster,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KbXi4zA3,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2017-02-17T23:30:04.042+0000)

Jhin is getting a nerf soon to his over-bearing Utility on his ult, he shouldn't have alot of damage AND utility especially with his current player based statistics.

Src: https://gyazo.com/b9af0c1b73f5e14273e64699c3e9a7f9

Also its mostly subjective whether or not the person commenting is a Jhin main or has had bad run in with Jhin..

No offense, but that is a pretty weak nerf. I doubt it will do anything to his relative strength.