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i have a question about the buff to garens w

Critmaster Garen··6 votes·4,731 views

just a reminder what im talking about, and whats currently on the PBE

Courage (W) cooldown lowered from 24/23/22/21/20 to 23/21/19/17/15 bonus armor & magic resist increased from .25 to .333 bonus max increased from 40 to 50 duration lowered from 2/3/4/5/6 to 2/2.75/3.5/4.25/5

the way i understand it, this would give him the option to put more points into his w and give him more of way to to survive lane against more matchups due to the shorter cooldown.

the problem is, to what end?

garen isnt a champion who scales strongly. he power spikes for a short moment around midgame, and then falls off like a rock. just surviving lane on its own isnt enough to make the champion have some impact on a game.

yesterday i randomly tuned into ristes stream, and watched him get bullied in lane by kayle.

by

kayle

the champion whos supposed to be complete garbage during the early game to make up for her lvl 11 and lvl 16 spikes.

kayle might be currently too strong, but thats mostly because shes a bit safer than she should be early on in most matchups, and scales a bit too fast with klepto. but the champion actually not just having an easy time to play passive, but watching one of the best garen players out there get bullied around and outtraded by her is absurd.

this isnt a kayle problem. this is a problem with garen. and being able to survive lane a bit better wont make the champion any better. yea, maybe now he wouldnt get bullied around by kayle anymore and has a chance to go even, but whats the point in going even when he still gets outscaled? he isnt like nasus who can get effective by stalling for time. he isnt a tank either where he keeps staying effective throughout the game just based off his utility.

the champion needs some actual work put into him, and not just small bandaid stat buffs.

12 Comments

Saevum3 votes

Don't want to be disrespectul to Garen players, but picking Garen is already dangerous in top lane. The only lane where he might do something. He is more like a strict niche, and even then, you have other options.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

Don't want to be disrespectul to Garen players, but picking Garen is already dangerous in top lane. The only lane where he might do something. He is more like a strict niche, and even then, you have other options.

yea, no. thats exactly the problem.

like i said, the champion needs actual work. i dont think a bandaid buff to his w so he can survive a few more lanes is enough, because he doesnt scale up to be able to carry just by surviving.

the only way garen carries with his current kit is to get ahead in lane, and not just even. with an early game that gets him bullied by kayle, this isnt going to be possible.

with an early game like this they need to either seriously tune up his scaling, so he ends up at the same end of the power spectrum as lategame carries (like kayle, fiora, veigar, nasus etc.), or they need to allow him to be a lane bully again (like renekton), if he falls off later.

but hes not going to be a functioning champion with a weak early game, and weak lategame. and just surviving his weak early game to end up at a weak lategame wont do anything for him either. because when you chose to max out w, or at least put more points into it, you dfont put them into your offense and have even less kill pressure.

Saevum1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KZbbcNaZ,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-03-31T13:34:11.826+0000)

but hes not going to be a functioning champion with a weak early game, and weak lategame.

You got the answer already here.

If you want to dig in a possible mini-rework solution, I would aim for his signature aspects:

  1. I would give his passive a mini-tweak stacking rework. Which would consist in increasing the healing by %10 for every tick that your E proc'd on champions (for 5 seconds) after the passive is off cooldown. And diminish the time the passive is on cooldown by the same amount. This would help him in the early trades without breaking him.

Same scenario with Kayle: go in, trade, Q into E, back off. Heal better after the trade. Counterplay from kayle perspective: keep your passive on cooldown as always has been.

  1. Change to his E. for every tick of judgement stacked on the enemy champions (only) your passive increases healing by 10%. For every champion hit, the heal will double, and will be off cooldown for 10 seconds (lets try 10 seconds first). This would help him when engaging in a teamfight and if by chance he manages to hit at least 2 enemy champions while he spins.

Same scenario with kayle: go in, trade, Q into E, enemy jungler jumps in, you hit them both with E, passive goes off cooldown instead of being in cooldown and increases healing by double for 10 seconds, pop W while you are at it, you might survive longer to hug the turret.

I am just sketching at this point, feel free to suggest to Riot a FULL rework.

Hethalean2 votes

The problem is that Kayle is a pretty good bully still in melee matchups.

I'm not sure what to do with Garen.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

The problem is that Kayle is a pretty good bully still in melee matchups.

I'm not sure what to do with Garen.

maybe i didnt explain it well enough.

people were telling him in his stream chat to play more aggressive on her and put pressure on her during the early levels.

he showcased what would happen when he tries. he went in and hit her with his q and spin, and she traded back into him.

she won the trade.

this isnt just about her poking him with her e and q, but literally one of the suppsedly early weakest and late hyperscaling champions won in a direct trade of abilities, against what is suppsoed to be a juggernaut.

if you put darius or illaoi in his place, either would have demolished her if she let them walk up into melee range.

kayle is generally strong right now, because because she can play safe enough to scale in a lot of matchups, and her e and q make it kindof easy for her to play passive and get gold and levels.

but that wasnt even the problem in that lane, it was that she would actually win direct fights.

Galaxyburstz1 votes

I'm all for buffing health and survivability stats this season, but not on garen

I should also mention that you said garen falls off in the late game, if you're building crit on him then I guess I agree but an old conquerer garen with this build item 3071 item 3083 item 3065 item 3053 item 3742 item 3812 was one of the scariest things to face

the game was pretty much over at that point

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

I'm all for buffing health and survivability stats this season, but not on garen

I should also mention that you said garen falls off in the late game, if you're building crit on him then I guess I agree but an old conquerer garen with this build item 3071 item 3083 item 3065 item 3053 item 3742 item 3812 was one of the scariest things to face

the game was pretty much over at that point

that build doesnt have boots. kindof proofs my point that hed need an entire item more than other champions just to scale into a lategame. conqueror is garbage on him right now anyway since he cant stack it.

ive not built crit on him in a serious game in a few years. the build is dead since crit was removed from ghostblade.

he just generally falls off past midgame.

atm hes like nasus, if nasus couldnt stack his q past 200.

Galaxyburstz1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KZbbcNaZ,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-03-31T14:04:31.472+0000)

ive not built crit on him in a serious game in a few years. the build is dead since crit was removed from ghostblade.

and no, that build doesnt magically make up for his trash early game either. he just generally falls off past midgame.

1 wow, I didn't know that there used to be crit on item 3142

2 but his q e trade at level two with resolve is pretty good since your opponent is silenced for most of the duration [ maybe not good enough ]

3 trash early game + falls off mid game = midgame powerspike, so now they are buffing his in lane trading power, since a champion shouldn't necessarily be good at all aspects of the game at every stage they are sacrificing his late game for his early game

4 don't pick him into ranged tops with mobility and expect good results lol [ you know this ]

5 fewer games reach the late stage this season so that W buff is much better than a straight up scaling buff

6 with vayne this meta I remember watching a garen get shredded by her and man did I feel bad for him

7 I agree with you but am just telling my opinion here

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

2 but his q e trade at level two with resolve is pretty good since your opponent is silenced for most of the duration

his spin literally deals less damage than auto attacking at early levels.

what deals the most damage to you is the q.

his spin honestly doesnt scale well enough through the entire game, which is why we prefer to build item 3078 in a lot of games, just to amp up our q and kindof try to work off that.

we mostly just build cleaver when were behind in a losing lane.

the other points... youre not telling me anything new, and it doesnt have anything to do with his current issues.

he didnt get outtraded by a lategame vayne, but by a kayle on early levels. but he doesnt scale like her either.

Galaxyburstz1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KZbbcNaZ,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-31T14:19:50.642+0000)

his spin literally deals less damage than auto attacking at early levels.

what deals the most damage to you is the q.

his spin honestly doesnt scale well enough through the entire game, which is why we prefer to build item 3078 in a lot of games, just to amp up our q and kindof try to work off that.

we mostly just build cleaver when were behind in a losing lane.

the other points... youre not telling me anything new, and it doesnt have anything to do with his current issues.

he didnt get outtraded by a lategame vayne, but by a kayle on early levels. but he doesnt scale like her either.

Its just that if a %hp damage dealing meta is in place Ashe Kayle Vayne KogMaw Fiora then someone, unfortunately, has to suffer. And that will be, you guessed it, tanks who are best used when stacking HP

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

Its just that if a %hp damage dealing meta is in place Ashe Kayle Vayne KogMaw Fiora then someone, unfortunately, has to suffer. And that will be, you guessed it, tanks who are best used when stacking HP

when has % hp damage not been a thing?

fiora and kog maw dont even see a lot of play, ashe doesnt have % damage herself and isnt played either.

Galaxyburstz2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KZbbcNaZ,comment-id=000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-31T14:41:32.515+0000)

when has % hp damage not been a thing?

Back when you couldn't do 2x %HP damage + True Damage item 3124 item 3153 old item 3031 and old conqueror

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