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For the love of God and all that is holy

Eedat··126 votes·6,218 views

Do people not remember? Remember the old days of Kassadin? Am I actually seeing "buff Kass" threads when he's perfectly fine as he is right now? Do people not remember the days of 98% ban rate Kass?

For those people who do not remember, let me give you a rundown of the old days of Kass. The days when he was pick/ban from LCS all the way down to Bronze. The literal 98% ban rate days.

Kass is in a balanced state right now but there was a day where Kass would riftwalk onto a squishy target, drop his combo, insta-kill them, then zhonyas. When his zhonyas was over he could just riftwalk back out or on to his next target. His unparalleled mobility meant it was impossible to focus him down, chase, catch him out, or escape from a Kass and he would just hunt you down even after you flashed away. Nobody could 1v1 him which made split pushing impossible because he would come and run you down no matter how well you were warded. He had insane carry potential on top of the insane mobility which gave him crazy roam potential, pick potential, map pressure, and team fight presence.

He was literally pick/ban from LCS all the way down to Bronze with everything in between. He literally had a 98% ban rate because he was so busted. Now that he's in the middle ground where he isn't an absolute monster, people want him buffed again because they don't remember what Kass is like when he's strong?

This thread is a preemptive strike against the "buff Kass" threads popping up. Kass is absolutely fine and is in need of absolutely ZERO buffs what-so-ever. People don't remember shit man I swear. Rito please dont cave.

#Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it

119 Comments

JackMcSnipeyz32 votes

Thank you I love all these posts going crazy about how the game isnt balanced at all because a champion has 56% winrate! The horror.

I remember watching the LCS back then and everytime he would slip - instapick and the team that didnt ban him lost. Good times

Sire Hippington4 votes

I remember watching the LCS back then and everytime he would slip - instapick and the team that didnt ban him lost. Good times

you mean like Syndra at worlds? and Ryze for the better teams? or Nidalee....

LA Losty14 votes

Kassadin was worse.

Pierce The Veal9 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Cingulum,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KTrI1d2y,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-11-05T18:25:57.833+0000)

Good times

you mean like Syndra at worlds? and Ryze for the better teams? or Nidalee....

No. None of those compare. If you haven't been around then then you wouldn't understand the terror that was kassadin. As soon as he reached level 6 he became the most horrifying existence the game has seen since release Xin Zhao and pre nerf jax and release Orianna. You should know that ban phase was a little variable, but it didn't matter what elo it was, kassadin would have to be banned if you wanted a slight chance of winning. Ryze, Nidalee, and Syndra combined couldn't hold a candle to season 2 Kassadin.

Sire Hippington5 votes

I play this game since preseason 1. Most people here reffer to S3 or S4 kassa, not S2.

And even though i do agree that S2 was a monster and Stronger than S3/4 kassa, he was not 100% pick/ban, and he for sure was not a insta win. He also didn't see that much professional play either. Out side of some early cases like Jax befor dodge was removed, most of the 'broken' champs of the past weren't more broken than the things we've seen in recent Season.

Pierce The Veal2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Cingulum,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KTrI1d2y,comment-id=0001000000020000,timestamp=2016-11-06T01:31:17.798+0000)

I play this game since preseason 1. Most people here reffer to S3 or S4 kassa, not S2.

And even though i do agree that S2 was a monster and Stronger than S3/4 kassa, he was not 100% pick/ban, and he for sure was not a insta win. He also didn't see that much professional play either. Out side of some early cases like Jax befor dodge was removed, most of the 'broken' champs of the past weren't more broken than the things we've seen in recent Season.

But Kassadin can't be compared with Nidalee, Ryze, and such champions because he was strong enough that he was ban/pickandwin/lose. And he was strong for most of season 2. I mean, technically he wasn't insta win, but the sheer odds of winning from having a kass were huge. Kass was at least as strong as the most broken thing we've seen this recent season, but over the course of an entire season.

Battlecast Sona2 votes

I'm sorry but there's no comparison. A character like Syndra loses to the enemy team/laner, Kassadin only lost to his player's ability to control him (which meant at high level play Kass was a terror). He basically had more damage on all of his spells, a silence on Q, and double the range on riftwalk.

Sire Hippington2 votes

kassadin had at no point in history a higher pickban+win than nida or syndra had this worlds...Yes, pre rework kassasdin was a monster especially in the hands of a skilled player, but not really more so than some stuff in other seasons. The main difference is how long he was allowed to stay that way, though nidalee dominated high-elo and proplay for a similar long time, same with kallista or azir...

Battlecast Sona2 votes

Kassadin was 100% pick/ban in normal draft/ranked through most of Season 1 and 2. I don't really know what you're talking about, tbh. There wasn't LCS at the time so it's not like you can compare LCS picks...

Sire Hippington2 votes

There were international turnaments like IEM and worlds, and kassa wasn't a big factor at any of them. Kassa was Op for sure, but certainly not to a point where giving him away would instantly loose the game. He mostly was banned that much because he was not only strong, but also a pain in the ass to play against. Other champions that aren't fun to face had similar pick/ban rates when they were strong, like Zed, ekko or Yasuo. The main difference is that Kassadin was allowed to stay that way for a really long time.

AFK Push1 votes

He literally had a 98% pick/ban even in norms before the nerf. Kassadin didn't just dominate high elo and pro play, he literally raw dogged with no reach around.

Sire Hippington2 votes

Nidalee had 100% pick/ban this worlds, with a 73% win, kassa had 58% win back when he had his 98% pick/ban in preffesional play.

W Flynn14 votes

By that logic, lets never ever buff urgot. Just because a champ was busted in the past doesn't mean anything to the future. As long as they are buffed in different ways from what brought them to that state, then us "repeating the past" is just bs.

Bladerunner77772 votes

Why does he need a buff?

He fulfills a niche role and he has a 52% winrate right now

W Flynn4 votes

yeah .35% pickrate, no changes necessary.

Bladerunner77772 votes

He doesn't need any buffs at all, bottom line

He needs a rework

AirKingNeo13 votes

Oh no, Kass was SUPER BROKEN at ONE POINT IN TIME!!! Wow, that totally means we should never ever EVER buff him again, even if he's weak like he is now.

Eedat22 votes

And he's FINE right now. Why would we buff him back to that point?

AirKingNeo2 votes

He's not fine and who mentioned buffing him back to "that point"??? He needs buff but no one said to make him 90% winrate.

Eedat9 votes

Kassadin is completely fine right now. Any buffs are going to push him over the edge again

Aeszarck4 votes

{quoted}

Kassadin is completely fine right now. Any buffs are going to push him over the edge again

I agree with your general sentiment, but doing something like increasing his attack range by one or increasing his attack damage by one isn't going to push him over the edge. (Not saying that that's what he needs or how he should be buffed, but those are buffs.) If Riot did buff him, they'd just have to be super careful about it, only targeting the place that he actually needs to be buffed in and then not overbuffing him there.

Battlecast Sona1 votes

he is fine. He was seeing LCS play a couple patches back and there have been no significant changes to his kit (just other mages got buffed). While he's not currently heavily favored by the meta, he's definitely not weak - just needs some time to get items to scale, which is good because he's potentially one of the most mobile champs in the game.

AirKingNeo2 votes

It's a mage meta, Kassadin counters mages. The fact that Kass is weak in A MAGE META is a problem. Oh and people stopped picking him because he wasn't good, hence why Korea never picked him.

Battlecast Sona3 votes

this game doesn't work like that.

Kassadin may counter mages, but currently what's valued mid lane is waveclear and CC/initiation, two things that Kass lacks. We're not in a "mage meta" unless a mage meta involves 3 ADCs on a team and only 1 mage, lol.

AirKingNeo1 votes

Huh? Since when do we have 3 ADCs per team? Its a mage meta because mid lane is being played only mages and the best supports the mage ones. You don't need everyone playing 3 mages for it to be a meta.

Battlecast Sona2 votes

...uhm. No? Long ranged supports are certainly strong but I don't know that I consider Karma and Zyra to be "mage supports" since they've been pretty solidly support picks for a long time (barring the couple of Karma mid picks this/last season). Again, you're attributing things where they don't belong. Ranged supports aren't being picked because they're mages - they're being picked because of their synergy with their Marksman. Currently matchups in bottom lane don't favor tanks/melee supports much (due in part to the long range initiation of Jhin/Ashe that's being picked bottom right now). But additionally, the prevalence of the sustained damage to take out a tank is very high - with viable marksmen in a number of roles (multiples in the jungle!), support tanks become risky because you're picking a class that's already having problems meta wise and giving it less gold and hoping it performs.

As I said, mages are being picked middle because they provide waveclear. The reason waveclear is important is because teams are more successfully sieging and taking out objectives... Because ADCs are strong. If it's a mage meta because 2 roles pick mage then it must be a Marksman meta too because we've had many games with Marksman bottom and jungle as well.

AirKingNeo1 votes

It's a mage meta and you don't need 2 roles picking mage for it to be. Its a mage meta because MAGES ARE REALLY OVERPOWERED.

Battlecast Sona2 votes

they're... not though?

LOL.

I mean barring stuff like Syndra that is legit broken, I don't think mages are even that contested right now. Jungle picks are waaaaaaaaaaay more contested in LCS right now than middle picks, and a lot of the mages being picked aren't even being picked for carry potential, it's almost purely CC/utility. That's why mages are being picked middle. Mages aren't really overpowered, lol.

AirKingNeo1 votes

So Syndra, Cassiopeia, Vlad, Anivia, Kennen, Aurelion Sol, Elise, Malzahar, Ryze, and Viktor. All of these are contested picks, but no, this isn't a mage meta even though we had a mage update to make it a MAGE META.

Battlecast Sona1 votes

"contested"? Picked, sure, and maybe a Cassi or Ryze ban because of their hyper carry potential. But most of the bans are dedicated to the jungle - while they may be "mages" in the jungle (Elise or Nidalee) they're still junglers.

Like, you listed off a huge portion of the roster. And 90% of those reinforce my statement: they all have CC, utility, and waveclear.

BakedLotion4 votes

{quoted}

And he's FINE right now. Why would we buff him back to that point?

Meta has changed. His ult range is tiny He needs to auto now His damage is already toned down He can use a buff. He's not balanced, he's on the weak side. A +10 base damage or something won't break him

Meep Man2 votes

Can you show me the stats that suggest he is weak?

BakedLotion3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Inept Maverick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KTrI1d2y,comment-id=0006000000010000,timestamp=2016-11-06T01:17:39.248+0000)

Can you show me the stats that suggest he is weak?

http://champion.gg/champion/kassadin I didn't say he was weak, I said he was on the weaker side Like I suggested, a 10 base damage won't break him. It'll probably get him to an exact 50% win rate if lucky

Battlecast Sona1 votes

the idea that 50% winrate is balanced is wrong, and also absurd. A character who is complex like Azir or difficult to play like Kassadin will have under a 50% winrate while balanced because players with less than 30~50 games have lower winrates (generally in the ~45 range), which pulls the average winrate down.

Average winrate gives absolutely no indication of a champion's balance. To be honest, the only time it's useful is if its absurdly high (58%+) or absurdly low (41%-). Anything in between could mean almost anything - that the character is easy, that they're too hard, that they're doing well at one level of play but not others, or that they're incredibly popular picks (Vayne's winrate will probably never be 50% when she's "balanced" because of how easy it is to feed and do nothing as that champ, even when she's strong).

BakedLotion1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Battlecast Janna,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KTrI1d2y,comment-id=000600000001000000000001,timestamp=2016-11-06T15:17:13.280+0000)

the idea that 50% winrate is balanced is wrong, and also absurd. A character who is complex like Azir or difficult to play like Kassadin will have under a 50% winrate while balanced because players with less than 30~50 games have lower winrates (generally in the ~45 range), which pulls the average winrate down.

Average winrate gives absolutely no indication of a champion's balance. To be honest, the only time it's useful is if its absurdly high (58%+) or absurdly low (41%-). Anything in between could mean almost anything - that the character is easy, that they're too hard, that they're doing well at one level of play but not others, or that they're incredibly popular picks (Vayne's winrate will probably never be 50% when she's "balanced" because of how easy it is to feed and do nothing as that champ, even when she's strong).

Kassadin isn't hard.

Riot buffs champs 48-49% all the time to attempt to bring them to 50. Most recent example is Nasus.

Battlecast Sona1 votes

Kassadin is hard to use properly. It's very easy to pick Kassadin and feed all game if you don't understand where your power spikes are, thus bringing his average winrate down. Riot does, occasionally, buff champs to bring them to 50 - they also have stated that champs like Vayne or Azir are probably balanced at 48% and champs like Jinx (easy hypercarry) are probably balanced at around 52% because of their difficult/ease, respectively. It's not a hard and fast rule - for some characters (namely though with fairly homogenous winrates across all levels of experience with the character), they should be at or around 50%. For others, their difficulty to pick up and play either due to game knowledge required or mechanical skill required means if they're at a 50% winrate something is wrong, because the learning curve should be steeper for these champs.

Meep Man1 votes

I don't see where it shows he is weak other than the average player having a 49% win rate while experienced players have a 53% win rate.

The Ecdysiast7 votes

I was there. It was horrible.

But you're lying if you're going to pretend Kassadin can overpower newer champions and the new meta with just a small buff. They will never return the silence, which was the only thing that made him a viable anti-mage. And the only champion released in the last 3 years with a channeled ability to interrupt was Vel'koz.

The game has changed. He was strong because he was one of only 4 hyper-mobile champions, and champions and items weren't adjusted as much to make up for lack of mobility. But now, most champions that relied on heavy damage to offset mobility have been given heavy buffs. Champions he used to counter because of his silence, now counter him because it's gone.

He's much closer to the bottom in terms of performance than the top.

And with the Assassin update coming up, the only chance he stands of being a pick at all is as a counter against Katarina.

He's not the very bottom of the picks, but there are much better options that can match the strengths that made him overwhelming in a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT game state.

JESUSSAYSNO6 votes

He's out of meta rright now, B tier at best. His kit is fine, but he could afford to be tuned higher. Giving his kit more utility would be retarded.

Poorly Dressed6 votes

Why complain about Kassadin when Syndra presses R on him ? The main reason was his silence and the rifwalk range. Both got nerfed/removed. If he is slightly behind his damage is beyond garbage.

Resonance x LFT5 votes

Kassadin is in a pretty shitty spot with his silence gone and his riftwalk nerfed to hell.

dunder kill32 votes

Fun fact: Kassadin's silence was gone before his 98% ban rate days too

XeroKimo4 votes

What? I thought they removed his silence the day they reworked/nerfed the hell out of him

Eedat4 votes

Nope. They removed it at the same time that they removed Leblanc's silence. If I recall correctly, the compensation buffs are what sent him over the edge

XeroKimo3 votes

..... That's weird.... let's see.... I'm sure it was Season 4 when they reworked him, around that time..... during season 3 I'm sure he still had his silence cause all I remember was XPEKE!!!!! .... so if they did remove his silence before his rework.... the rework must have been followed shortly after the removal.....

Protonic2 votes

According to past patch notes you are correct that the rework happened in Season 4, in patch 4.4 to be precise, and in that patch his silence was removed for interrupting channels. Leblanc's was also removed, though apparently in 4.10 where the name was changed too.

As far as compensation buffs, his Q and E lost base damage, while his W did damage it could not previously do while becoming his mana restore over his R, and R now was mana scaling with the additional cost becoming double each cast up to 4 times with the same damage.

After that his Q and W abilities did see some buffs, but they were largely reverted a patch or two later. For next like 5 patches, he did see a lot of nerfs from damage to cooldowns and beyond, but not many of them were particularly devastating so much as weakening the ability. This continued from season 4 into season 5, until about midway through season 5, he got visually updated, and some of his nerfs were partially reverted to the present.

His most recent change was in 6.15 the Q damage was shifted towards later levels, W got a tower damaging bugfix and his E's cost scales with level as opposed to a flat cost. Before this was mostly singular tweaks, seemingly to improve him post-nerfing.

Eedat2 votes

Here is a patch by patch.

http://lol.gamepedia.com/Kassadin_-_The_Void_Walker#4.4

The rework is in patch 4.4

Then you can watch the 'compensation buffs' the next patch. Then watch him get nerf after nerf the patches after that.

Gamepedia is a good site to bookmark. Has patch by patch notes for all the champs

Kaisa is Hot8 votes

{quoted}

Fun fact: Kassadin's silence was gone before his 98% ban rate days too

No Kassadin's silence was removed when he got reworked. They lowered the silence duration prior to rework, but never completely removed it.

Meep Man5 votes

Fun fact: This is false. His silence was one of the things that was removed in his mini-rework to get him out of that state and replaced with an interrupt and magic damage shield on his Q.

OHminus3 votes

Kass is fine as it is right now, but your logic is flawed. By your logic, Azir and Kalista shouldn't receive buffs because they used to dominate pro play and solo queue, even though they're absolute trash right now.

Let's not deny it - Azir and Kalista are sitting at sub 44 percent winrates and sub 2 percent pickrates, and while their kits might be toxic by design, there's no denying that slight buffs to both of them wouldn't hurt in the least.

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