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So lyte said we need to get to the root cause of toxicity?

Arcade Andrew··5 votes·1,099 views

http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1022160/More-Science-Behind-Shaping-Player

I can attest that Idve probably never gotten a 2week ban or multiple warnings for being "toxic" if A) I had loss prevented for afks and leavers in ranked B) punishment for players doing poorly (over a consistent period of games and getting reported for it) in ranked the punishment being ranked restrictions C) disabling new champions and newly updated champions in ranked for a period of two weeks after it hits live D) 10 ranked bans E) requiring you to play at least 10-25 games (or attain champion mastery level 3) on a champion before you can play them in ranked F) fix all the bugs in your game such as nids invisapears G) give us proof that anyone we report is being punished, lyte said him self clarity is key, I want some clarity that people I report are being punished if I knew they were getting punished Id be alot more likely to not care cus I can laugh and know they got punished while they raged at me or fed

NOTE: this isnt a rant post about me just getting a warning or ban, I havent, this Is me commenting on the above video where lyte says the key to fixing toxic behavior is finding the root cause and getting rid of it and as a former toxic player the root cause (of what ive seen from most other toxic players) isnt that they truly are homophobic or racist ect. its that when players do bad and cause them to lose a game (mainly in ranked) they get pissed kinda of like how in the real world if youre job is to make sure lets say a railroad is safe for travel for trains to go over it, and they rails arent and a train derails off those tracks you said were safe, the person driving the train isnt going to be punished, hes gunna be pissed and wish you were dead (aswell as any survivors) and want you to go to jail ect. but you dont punish the drive of the train for the crash, you punish the person who did his job wrong.

apply that to league (for competitive play) and youd see toxic behavior go down about 75% of the players riot labels "toxic" are like me

pissed at the fact that an afk can ruin your game and you still lose lp and the enemy gets freelo

or your bot lane dies a few early deaths... but doesnt stop and they are 0/10 each by ten minutes in

TLDR: lyte wants to find the root causes of toxicity in league and online games, being a former toxic player the root cause is poor play in a game.

EDIT: THIS POST IS MADE NOT TO SAY "punish baddies in ranked" THIS POST WAS MEANT TO POINT OUT THAT IN RANKED PLAY THE TOXIC BEHAVIOR GENERALLY COMES FROM PLAYERS BEING BAD

I never said being bad justifys somebody being a dick, I never said being a dick was ok,

I stated that the root cause (which if you watch the video youll understand what I mean) of toxic behavior in ranked play is caused by poor play

35 Comments

Drunk Rummate6 votes

Except none of the reasons you've listed are good enough to justify being an asshole to a stranger over a video game. Would you be saying these things that got you banned to the face of someone you didn't know in public? I doubt it. Or at least I hope not.

Arcade Andrew2 votes

It doesn't matter if they ARE JUSTIFIABLE

if it causes toxicity it is the root cause so WHY aren't they addressing it?

Angry Monster2 votes

they are. They are banning you.

Arcade Andrew2 votes

They are banning the person reacting to a poor playing person, but say I say "stop fucking feeding" to a 0/10 kat mid by 5 minutes.

the root cause of me being toxic is from kat playing poorly

NOW WE COULD DELVE deeper and say the root cause of kat playing poorly is because league has a huge learning curve ect ect

Angry Monster2 votes

or you have impulse control issues. That or your parents failed to raise a decent person.

Which on is it? your parents failed you or you are just trash of a person no matter what?

Arcade Andrew3 votes

You sir seem toxic to me, if you had read the note I said as a former toxic player (no longer toxic) my experiences of being toxic were from others being bad/toxic

and I was pointing out that riot wants to root cause of toxic, and the root cause of toxic in my experience was bad players in league.

you saying things like "you are just a trash of a person" is pretty considering I used to call people trash and cancer perhaps you should look at yourself before judging others?

Angry Monster1 votes

As a player that has gotten honor rewards(actual banners) before, santa baron,the free skin last year and never been punished for in game behavior, you are the toxic one.

Stay salty and stay bronze.

Arcade Andrew2 votes

because calling a person "A trash of a person" is honorable? If I ever say you in game Id take the chance to report you as I have done for the previous and current post.

Angry Monster1 votes

dude, i do not have in game control problems. I asked you which one explains your failures as a human. I was letting you pick.

You seem to think you are trash, so you are trash.

Arcade Andrew1 votes

You have out of game problems it seems, what is your problem with calling somebody else trash? or saying they are a failure of a human.

Angry Monster1 votes

I did not call you trash, i asked if you were trash. Apparently you can not read either.

I did say you were a failure as a human though.

Edit. I love this thread where

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/miscellaneous/EtjTNRiZ-riot-has-failed-me

Your post about how you are still getting punished. Stop looking at others kid and look at your self. Well maybe the prema ban on your account will make you see that i am right.

ZephyrDrake1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Arcade Andrew,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KPmWWzWA,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2015-05-16T10:05:34.436+0000)

They are banning the person reacting to a poor playing person, but say I say "stop fucking feeding" to a 0/10 kat mid by 5 minutes.

the root cause of me being toxic is from kat playing poorly

NOW WE COULD DELVE deeper and say the root cause of kat playing poorly is because league has a huge learning curve ect ect

no they are banning you because if the only way you know how to react to that is by being negative then you are not helping them be better at the game. People have bad games all the time punishing them just because someone has a bad game is stupid why the hell should i be punished for having a bad game or because i'm on tilt? the root of the toxicity in that example is you opening your mouth and being negative since all you are accomplishing is making a hostile environment

Arcade Andrew3 votes

you people on these forums are dense aren't you? THE POINT of this thread is banning me for raging at a hypothetical 0/10 kat at 5 minutes might get rid of me sure, but I AM NOT THE ROOT CAUSE

because I only would rage when a player does bad in ranked play (and I mean exceptionally bad where its like they dont care if they win or lose)

the 0/10 kat will go on and go 0/10 in 10 more games and cause up to 40 other players to rage, which can spread to up to 50 other enemy players when the 40 players start bitching in all chat which then creates more and more negativity like a chain reaction.

Sure riot can ban all of them but that isnt the root cause of the toxic behavior the root cause is the kat who is playing ranked and going 0/10 by five minutes on a consistent basis

(if she went 0/10 five minutes in one game thats not punishable but doing it over a period of time would be)

obviously youre skill of doing good will determine wether or not you climb or fall but there are players out there in every division who consistently play poorly without caring that they are doing bad or that their team is losing because of them and if you remove them from the ranked scene then those 40 other players in the next ten games she plays wont be reacting badly to her being a bad player

ZephyrDrake1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Arcade Andrew,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KPmWWzWA,comment-id=000200000000000000010000,timestamp=2015-05-17T01:52:25.790+0000)

you people on these forums are dense aren't you? THE POINT of this thread is banning me for raging at a hypothetical 0/10 kat at 5 minutes might get rid of me sure, but I AM NOT THE ROOT CAUSE

because I only would rage when a player does bad in ranked play (and I mean exceptionally bad where its like they dont care if they win or lose)

the 0/10 kat will go on and go 0/10 in 10 more games and cause up to 40 other players to rage, which can spread to up to 50 other enemy players when the 40 players start bitching in all chat which then creates more and more negativity like a chain reaction.

Sure riot can ban all of them but that isnt the root cause of the toxic behavior the root cause is the kat who is playing ranked and going 0/10 by five minutes on a consistent basis

(if she went 0/10 five minutes in one game thats not punishable but doing it over a period of time would be)

obviously youre skill of doing good will determine wether or not you climb or fall but there are players out there in every division who consistently play poorly without caring that they are doing bad or that their team is losing because of them and if you remove them from the ranked scene then those 40 other players in the next ten games she plays wont be reacting badly to her being a bad player

the only one being dense here is you. What does you raging at the 0/10 Kat accomplishes? nothing but make her play even worse and making an already uneasy environment be even more tense. You are not helping yourself nor Kat nor your teammates by raging at Kat. If you have nothing good to say then don't say anything. If the Kat is going 0/10 by 5 mins on a consistent basis that means she will be banned because she isn't playing bad but because she is intentionally feeding which is a form of griefing. You can make all your petty excuses you want but raging at someone is not excusable so don't come with "i'm not the root of the problem" guess what? YOU ARE! you are the root of making the entire game be a pain to everyone else since now not only do we have a feeder now we have a douche who won't shut up and is ruining the game EVEN MORE. You are part of the problem

Arcade Andrew2 votes

oh my god you still dont get it...

if there is a kat who goes 0/10 by five minutes, and does it constantly and consistently she cant be banned for intentionally feeding if she is just a bad player,

however there will always be people who get angry in the competitive scene when a player does badly

did you even watch the video in which lyte says they need to find the root cause of why players are toxic?

the root cause is the 0/10 kat because if the only time they are toxic is when somebody is bad in ranked, remove the kat from the ranked and they are no longer toxic YES IF THEY ARE TOXIC THEY SHOULD STILL BE PUNISHED but only punishing them wont change a thing, what will change (in ranked) is ranked punishments for poor play outside of losing lp/elo/mmr ect

ZephyrDrake1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Arcade Andrew,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KPmWWzWA,comment-id=00020000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2015-05-17T02:28:08.185+0000)

oh my god you still dont get it...

if there is a kat who goes 0/10 by five minutes, and does it constantly and consistently she cant be banned for intentionally feeding if she is just a bad player,

however there will always be people who get angry in the competitive scene when a player does badly

did you even watch the video in which lyte says they need to find the root cause of why players are toxic?

the root cause is the 0/10 kat because if the only time they are toxic is when somebody is bad in ranked, remove the kat from the ranked and they are no longer toxic YES IF THEY ARE TOXIC THEY SHOULD STILL BE PUNISHED but only punishing them wont change a thing, what will change (in ranked) is ranked punishments for poor play outside of losing lp/elo/mmr ect

YOU ARE RAGING! you don't get to play the "it's not my fault it's X's fault" card. Sorry but until you learn that your negative attitude is not welcome here then GTFO!

YOU ARE NOT HELPING ANYONE BY RAGING AT ANYONE! if people are intentionally feeding they will get banned, people having a bad game won't get punished ever because guess what? THEY ARE NOT THE SOURCE OF THE PROBLEM NOR ARE THEY DOING ANYTHING WRONG! the source of the problem are douches like you who think it's a good idea to rage at people who are doing bad. Everyone has bad games EVERYONE, everyone goes on tilt EVERYONE. Why don't we remove you from ranked since you clearly are toxic since all you care about is coming up with stupid excuses to "justify" your toxicity

Arcade Andrew2 votes

sigh... What I gather problem this is a few things

1)You didnt bother to read the post nor watch the video 2) youre a mob downvoter who is going "hur hur youre the toxic one" 3) you dont realize That I DONT CONDONE TOXIC BEHAVIOR 4) if you had bothered to watch the video or read my post you dont know what lyte means by root cause and why I'm talking about this

let me run this example by you again by saying this first:

I DO NOT THINK IT IS OK TO RAGE AT ANYONE NOR DO I CONDONE IT

however, AS A FORMER TOXIC PERSON (currently still toxic apparently according to these random chat and ranked restrictions even though I havent played a game in about three days and the last game I played I got reported by trolls for sticking up for my team since they were harassing my team) I KNOW THAT IN RANKED (I cant speak for other Q's) Whenever I was toxic via "omfg you trash" "cancer shit tier team" ect. lines, It was because of instances like a kat going 0/10 by 5 minutes in , no these players weren't intentionally bad they just did dumb things in ranked like "first time x" or "going ashe jungle" things like that, which although ok outside of ranked shouldn't be in ranked to begin with.

The true root cause of me being toxic was people being bad in ranked

DOES THAT MAKE IT OK? NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DING DING DING IT DOES NOT!

HOWEVER the intention of this post isnt to say "they fed I raged so its ok that I raged because they fed"

which the mob of downvoters cant get through their thick skulls.

this post is about the video, in response to lyte saying he wants to find the root cause of toxicity

and my opinion as a former/current (depending on if you count countless troll reports in bronze will deem a player truly "toxic") toxic player I know that what set ME MYSELF OFF was players doing bad, and offered up ways which if used wouldve prevented me from ever raging at the time,

now I currently dont use things like "you cancer trash" "shit tier" ect.

occasionally I'll end up arguing with somebody or reasoning with them in an attempts to calm them down (if they are my team) by pointing out what they did wrong with ways they can do better in the future (which in bronze is considered just as toxic as death threats I guess because everybody thinks they deserve challenjour and hate hearing what they did wrong and 7/10 times start raging when you try and help) or when its the enemy team I never complain about my team via all chat, I merely only complain about myself via all chat saying things like "gg I did terrible in lane we lost sigh" ect. even if I wasnt the reason we lost.

I know riot had that "billy vs machine" case where he raged at himself and Im not saying my case is by any means similar but I can say without a doubt if that person came back to the game and raged at himself the automated machine would punish him for it if he got reported enough and due to lytes "let the players decide whats toxic" we see anything and everything getting reported for being toxic and its nearly impossible to avoid getting punished unless your positive 100% of the time,

me? Im not positive 100% of the time I used to be toxic now Im generally just neutral Ill say my "gj"'s here and there but most of the time I would just focus on the game on not care what others do

but even that nowadays can get you reported

ZephyrDrake1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Arcade Andrew,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KPmWWzWA,comment-id=0002000000000000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-05-17T13:59:38.849+0000)

blablablablablablablablablablablablabla

all i am hearing from you

Kazaashi3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Arcade Andrew,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KPmWWzWA,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-05-15T19:53:29.713+0000)

A) I had loss prevented for afks and leavers in ranked

This is balanced out if you play enough games. As long as you are not one of them, the other team has a higher chance of getting an undesirable player.

B) punishment for players doing poorly (over a consistent period of games and getting reported for it) in ranked the punishment being ranked restrictions

If they play poorly, they will lose more games. This will drop thier MMR and Ranking. That seems punishment enough. How can they get any better at Ranked if they are banned from it?

C) disabling new champions and newly updated champions in ranked for a period of two weeks after it hits live

I could see this, but I usually don't care.

D) 10 ranked bans

That is just too many. I like the amount we have now. Just enough to build a team around, but not too restrictive on people's champion pools.

E) requiring you to play at least 10-25 games (or attain champion mastery level 3) on a champion before you can play them in ranked

You would have to grind out SOOOOOOOO many games to just be able to start ranked that people would be turned off. Also, you don't have to play that many games with a champ to be able to take them into ranked. I usually have a good grasp of the champion after 10 or so games and then it's about adapting it's playstyle to various situations and team comps. I can do that just a well in Ranked as Normals.

F) fix all the bugs in your game such as nids invisapears

Bugs are annoying. It's easy to find a bug, but not so easy to fix them sometimes.

G) give us proof that anyone we report is being punished, lyte said him self clarity is key, I want some clarity that people I report are being punished if I knew they were getting punished Id be alot more likely to not care cus I can laugh and know they got punished while they raged at me or fed

People get punished all the time. Just look at all the QQ posts on the forums after someone gets restricted. You have to have faith in the system and use it whenever you feel it's appropriate. Riot doesn't want people to troll and ruin other people fun, but they also don't wanna be trolls themselves by unjustly banning or restricing people for nothing. They have to walk a very fine line and I think they are doing a good job.

You also have to keep in mind that, no matter what Riot does to stop trolls, they will always find new and equally annoying ways to ruin your fun.

Vistha Kai1 votes

This is balanced out if you play enough games. As long as you are not one of them, the other team has a higher chance of getting an undesirable player.

It is balanced out for the whole community, not single individuals. Law of probality allow that a person, while with a low chance, can get AFKs in their team and people aganist that person will get none.

If they play poorly, they will lose more games. This will drop thier MMR and Ranking. That seems punishment enough. How can they get any better at Ranked if they are banned from it?

If they play poorly they will take 4 other people with them and possibly boost 5 on the other... every game.

That is just too many. I like the amount we have now. Just enough to build a team around, but not too restrictive on people's champion pools.

10 not, then how about 8?

People get punished all the time. Just look at all the QQ posts on the forums after someone gets restricted. You have to have faith in the system and use it whenever you feel it's appropriate. Riot doesn't want people to troll and ruin other people fun, but they also don't wanna be trolls themselves by unjustly banning or restricing people for nothing. They have to walk a very fine line and I think they are doing a good job.

No, they are not. Half of the time you won't even get a response from the support regarding a ban/restriction, the other half will be some automatic bullshit response that has nothing to do with what you wrote.

Kazaashi1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vistha Kai,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KPmWWzWA,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2015-05-17T14:21:46.828+0000)

It is balanced out for the whole community, not single individuals. Law of probality allow that a person, while with a low chance, can get AFKs in their team and people aganist that person will get none.

Unfortunately, you would have to prove that is actually happening to someone. since that has a very low chance of happening.

If they play poorly they will take 4 other people with them and possibly boost 5 on the other... every game.

Unless they consistently get matched with the same people, it doesn't have much of an impact on the system as a whole.

10 not, then how about 8?

I still feel like you could ban out too many options for a particular role/position. I think 6 allows for the best team composition creation without being too restrictive on what types champs get banned out.

No, they are not. Half of the time you won't even get a response from the support regarding a ban/restriction, the other half will be some automatic bullshit response that has nothing to do with what you wrote.

Who cares? Do you need a cookie after you do something you are supposed to do? Trolls want people to think the system doesn't work. That way they can manipulate people into doing what they want. Just report people who you thin deserves it and let Riot sort it out.

Vistha Kai1 votes

I won't give you a proof, instead a quote from Pratchett's Mort.

Scientists have calculated that the chance of anything so patently absurd actually existing are millions to one. But magicians have calculated that million-to-one chances crop up nine times out of ten.

.

I still feel like you could ban out too many options for a particular role/position. I think 6 allows for the best team composition creation without being too restrictive on what types champs get banned out.

Riot already increased number of bans in the past. It's only a matter of time. Only right now we have about 20 ADC champs and they tend to have the smallest champion pool - rivaling only dedicated supports, but as we all know, every second champion can be a support.

Who cares? Do you need a cookie after you do something you are supposed to do? Trolls want people to think the system doesn't work. That way they can manipulate people into doing what they want. Just report people who you thin deserves it and let Riot sort it out.

That's not what I meant. There is no information for the punished why exactly they were restricted. How you can improve if you don't what you did wrong? System doesn't work. You don't need to be gullible to trolls to see it's a fact.

Surr20plz3 votes

Why does Lyte even have a job? That whole "HEY GAIZ! Only 2 out of 10 games have toxic behavior!" BOOOOLSHIT was nonsense.

And his quote "More people are typing GG than BG at the end of games, so things are looking swell fellaz!" comment just pretty much says it all.

It's lile he has to spread propaganda to prevent from being fired.

BlazinHot62 votes

[{quoted}](name=Arcade Andrew,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KPmWWzWA,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-05-15T19:53:29.713+0000)

I can attest that Idve probably never gotten a 2week ban or multiple warnings for being "toxic" if

That double contraction, lol

Señor Karthus2 votes
  1. You are the one replying condescendingly and aggressively to everyone. You are the only one with a negative attitude.
  2. I did read the post. You justify your toxicity with multiple factors that don't actually force anybody to be toxic.
  3. I did watch the video and it still leaves you as a toxic person who is raging on the forums and being corrected by everyone else.
Serevas1 votes

I second a lot of this and frankly I've done a pretty damned good job improving my reactions to all of that stuff, but it still bothers me and there are times where I'm sitting there biting my tongue so I don't say anything to get reported because it's not worth it. I swear I've been reported for negative attitude when all I've said in games is "Please stop trying to fight and play safe instead."

That's not to say that I haven't also deserved negative attitude reports at all, because I know I was once what I'd consider a semi-toxic player. It just annoys me when someone plays a champion for the first time every into a live game. At least go to bots or customs and figure out how the champion works before you play it in a real game.

Wickedfates1 votes

and if it was the train driver who did wrong?

Arcade Andrew1 votes

if they had proof, they punish him. IE if he is speeding he gets punished right along side bad tracks

azrolator1 votes

I can get behind some of the stuff you are saying. But others... Toxicity isn't limited to ranked. And not all people play team builder or blind pick just so that they can play with toxic little trolls. And why punish players for not performing up to your expectations? Are you seriously saying that Riot should punish players if they are not better than the average? They would quickly have no players at all. If some jerk started flaming me for having a bad game, I would hope that he would be the one reported and punished instead.

Arcade Andrew1 votes

This would be limited to ranked play mainly. normal and other types of games are for fun and generally poor play isnt excusable

azrolator1 votes

Some people just go into a lane and end up vs someone that is an abnormal pick and lose bad. Or they don't have enough experience with one of the 100+ champs to choose from. After losing a couple close ones early, the loser will surely start getting dived and have little to do about it. That is poor play. It isn't something to rage on someone about. Well, I can see ranked being pushed to higher experience players. But most players are going to quit after some jerk raging on them while they try to learn long before ranked. Where can they go to learn? AI is a joke. More troll players in there than in regular matches and the bots don't play smart. They need to play real games to learn how to play against real players.

Arcade Andrew1 votes

normal are generally for this, but this is more to address toxicity in ranked play

Im not toxic anymore (at least i try not to be) but I do notice with other players they are toxic if youre bad and are nice if your good (in ranked)

HateRip1 votes

Trust me, I've gotten two perma's in this game. Toxicity stems from the player itself, not the environment. Either you can man up, mute the little kids and hold your tongue when lashed out at or you'll simply rant and rave all game. The game itself is hardly toxic.

Señor Karthus1 votes

In short: "I am toxic and I want to justify it somehow" -1 Bye.

Arcade Andrew1 votes

What I deduce from this

  1. youre the toxic one
  2. you didnt read this post
  3. you didnt watch the video so you have no idea what im talking about

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