Why do tank stats feel so bad to build?

LunanEclipse·Feb 2, 2019·52 votes·15,543 views

Mostly Armor and MR I've noticed not doing anything to help mitigate damage due to the sheer amount of extra damage items have been giving through either penetration, true damage, extra damaging ability on the item, or absurd damage scaling. Health seems to be the best tank stat even though its hard countered by BoRK and Liandry's. It feels that unless you have 5k hp with 200 armor and MR you don't last for more than 3 seconds against a single champion anymore?

It feels that we need to have the stacking fall off on Armor and MR be much less so that it can match up to the ridiculous amount of penetration that has been added to the game or maybe have a certain threshold that when its passed it gives a portion of unmitigatable Armor and MR like 10% of bonus defensive stats are impenetrable and can't be reduced or for every 10 Armor and MR you block 1-2 (scaling on champ level) damage from that on top of the % reduction from the damage source not insignificant on sqishies but very noticeable on tanks.

94 Comments

The EcdysiastFeb 2, 201942 votes

You want to know why Tank stats feel bad to build?

https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/V7.9

This. This is why tank stats feel bad to build. Because the Tank Class Update was the only one intended to and successful in nerfing the class as a whole, and it did so in a way that even now, almost two years later, they feel like garbage to play.

All the item changes were aimed at making tank items less effective against the opposite damage type. They succeeded. But also only changed 3 champions, compared to all the other class updates which adjusted the whole class. Which is why for the following year they had to adjust tanks to the fact their items were nerfed into the ground.

But they can't do that by increasing defense, otherwise they're just impossible to take down. So they get damage and CC adjustments. Poppy's a prime example, with the buffs to her Q's damage, passive's range, and ult's functionality, but Galio also fits the bill.

All because they don't want tanks to actually be able to do their job in this game.

keccak256Feb 2, 201933 votes

{quoted}

All because they don't want tanks to actually be able to do their job in this game.

but.. but.. but... if tanks were able to do their job... then.. like.. people would have to... like... use strategy... and positioning... and skill...

...

anyone know any other moba's they would like to recommend?

LTK KoRoFeb 2, 20195 votes

this narrative is bullshit, positioning, skills and strategy are used in both tanks and non-tanks meta.

Also there's no strategy, skill and positioning in peeling your adc and having him kill everyone.

NetorareFeb 2, 201913 votes

[{quoted}](name=LTK KoRo,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KPfZM1vh,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-02T08:53:36.134+0000)

this narrative is bullshit, positioning, skills and strategy are used in both tanks and non-tanks meta.

Also there's no strategy, skill and positioning in peeling your adc and having him kill everyone.

There was strategy in taking an anti-tank adc and other stuff. Tank meta > braindead dmg meta all day.

JeaneGreeneFeb 2, 20196 votes

Heroes of the Storm is pretty good. If you want to play a beefy Boi there Diablo is pretty good.

RalanrFeb 2, 20192 votes

HoTS because of shared exp imo doesn’t need to worry about tanks needing to solo lane. So their tank designs aren’t as big an issue.

XonraFeb 2, 20196 votes

It would be good if Blizzard wasn't doing all they actively and openly could to abandon it.

GayFluffyUnicornFeb 3, 20192 votes

In reality land tho tanks remove skill and strategy from the game, not only the tank player lacks both but the game as a whole as tanks just run down midlane with their team, tank turret, CC the entire enemy team for eternity while your team cleans up.

They completely remove splitpush from the game since all they have to do is stand under turret and spam their interaction button to waveclear and keep you away from the turret.

But according to boards that never happened and season 6-8 just doesn'T exist at all where you had 2-4 tanks PER TEAM dogpiling on the enemy team brawling it out in an never ending baron dance/aram.

ShakeNBakeUKFeb 3, 20191 votes

{quoted}

but.. but.. but... if tanks were able to do their job... then.. like.. people would have to... like... use strategy... and positioning... and skill...

...

...

anyone know any other moba's they would like to recommend?

HotS has healthy balance between all roles atm :) Tanks/bruisers are actually slightly overtuned cos dbl warrior is meta atm

Irelia BotFeb 2, 20193 votes

{quoted}

You want to know why Tank stats feel bad to build?

https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/V7.9

This. This is why tank stats feel bad to build. Because the Tank Class Update was the only one intended to and successful in nerfing the class as a whole, and it did so in a way that even now, almost two years later, they feel like garbage to play.

All the item changes were aimed at making tank items less effective against the opposite damage type. They succeeded. But also only changed 3 champions, compared to all the other class updates which adjusted the whole class. Which is why for the following year they had to adjust tanks to the fact their items were nerfed into the ground.

But they can't do that by increasing defense, otherwise they're just impossible to take down. So they get damage and CC adjustments. Poppy's a prime example, with the buffs to her Q's damage, passive's range, and ult's functionality, but Galio also fits the bill.

All because they don't want tanks to actually be able to do their job in this game.

If 7.9 and 5.16 never happened the game would be in a much better state.

Zed geniusFeb 2, 20193 votes

Because the Tank Class Update was the only one intended to and successful in nerfing the class as a whole

Assassin update did exactly just that as well

The EcdysiastFeb 2, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zed genius,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KPfZM1vh,comment-id=00000002,timestamp=2019-02-02T20:16:44.309+0000)

Assassin update did exactly just that as well

Not exactly. The goal of the assassin update was to make them better at their job, killing squishy priority targets, while cracking down on their ability to take out more durable opponents. There was a trade-off. And stealth as a whole was simply buffed.

The tank update had no such trade-off. Taking away health from the items in exchange for more of the defensive stat didn't make them better against that damage type, it only made them worse against the other type.

And it also didn't provide a buff to anything like was done for stealth.

Zed geniusFeb 2, 20192 votes

The assassin update failed to fulfill its goals and thus already 2 of the reworks have been reverted

The EcdysiastFeb 2, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zed genius,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KPfZM1vh,comment-id=0000000200000000,timestamp=2019-02-02T20:59:58.603+0000)

The assassin update failed to fulfill its goals and thus already 2 of the reworks have been reverted

Excuse me for forgetting, but the reverts were LeBlanc and who else?

As for LeBlanc, her changes didn't have anything to do with the item changes since she isn't AD.

Zed geniusFeb 2, 20191 votes

Rengar

The EcdysiastFeb 2, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zed genius,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KPfZM1vh,comment-id=000000020000000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-02T21:49:57.703+0000)

Rengar

Well, only the change to his Q was reverted. Aaand it was about the mechanic, not the damage.

LTK KoRoFeb 2, 20192 votes

Actually most of the assassins after assassin update got straight up worse in killing squishies, due to their "delayed burst" gimmicks. Talon is the best example of that, even if he's strong right now, he was steaming garbage after the assassins update.

The EcdysiastFeb 3, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=LTK KoRo,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KPfZM1vh,comment-id=0000000200000001,timestamp=2019-02-02T22:07:28.148+0000)

Actually most of the assassins after assassin update got straight up worse in killing squishies, due to their "delayed burst" gimmicks. Talon is the best example of that, even if he's strong right now, he was steaming garbage after the assassins update.

Again, them failing their goal doesn't change what the goal was. And they'd been consistently making changes to reach that goal after the initial update.

The difference is that the Tank update was intended as a nerf to the class. If it had failed, tanks would still be strong would've been getting nerfs to weaken them.

Jerry SeinfeIdFeb 3, 20191 votes

Poppy's a prime example, with the buffs to her Q's damage, passive's range, and ult's functionalit

a champion who was intended to be a bruiser being pushed to actually building bruiser instead of full tank? how dare they.

The EcdysiastFeb 3, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jerry SeinfeId,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KPfZM1vh,comment-id=00000003,timestamp=2019-02-03T16:34:35.606+0000)

a champion who was intended to be a bruiser being pushed to actually building bruiser instead of full tank? how dare they.

No, she was intended to be a tank/fighter, not a fighter/tank.

I for one love Poppy and am quite glad they've been going in that direction, but the problem is they haven't gone far enough. So she's still not any good with bruiser items. But she doesn't have the ultimate or passive that made her old iteration so good at being a fighter.

Jerry SeinfeIdFeb 3, 20191 votes

No, she was intended to be a tank/fighter, not a fighter/tank.

so a bruiser either way? Going triforce is still working out for me so i ain't stopping. i went with cleaver+ibg early on in her remake and it worked out too, idk how good cleaver is on her rn. considering i don't even see the item on darius much anymore i'm gonna say it's trash.

The EcdysiastFeb 3, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jerry SeinfeId,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KPfZM1vh,comment-id=0000000300000000,timestamp=2019-02-03T19:22:45.634+0000)

so a bruiser either way? Going triforce is still working out for me so i ain't stopping. i went with cleaver+ibg early on in her remake and it worked out too, idk how good cleaver is on her rn. considering i don't even see the item on darius much anymore i'm gonna say it's trash.

Oh, no, no I did exactly the same thing and still do. That's why I like the changes. But I think they should push more towards that instead of just nerfing her defenses.

Meep ManFeb 2, 201924 votes

item 3036 - All Armor is reduced in Gold Efficiency against this champ by 35% item 3071 - All Armor is reduced in Gold Efficiency by up to 24% if this champion hits you a bit item 3031 - Allows champion to ignore even more of your Armor through True Damage item 3020 - Basic item majority of Mages purchase item 3135 - All Magic Resist is reduced in Gold Efficiency against this champ by 40% item 3153 - Building health can now slightly benefit an enemy if you don't combine it with a Thornmail as life steal procs off the % health damage item 3151 - More % health damage summoner 14 - Baseline form of ignoring armor and magic resist Conqueror- All Melee DPS passively have it so 20% of their damage cannot be reduced

Total Champions With an Anti-Tank Mechanic in their Base Kit (% Health Damage (except % missing health), True Damage, Anti-Armor, Anti-Magic Resist, Some Form of Tank Stat Stealing, Grievous Wounds, etc.) Aatrox Ahri Amumu Camille Chogath Corki Darius DrMundo Elise Evelynn Fiora Galio Gangplank Garen Gnar Gragas JarvanIV Jayce Karthus Kayle Kayn Kindred Kled KogMaw LeeSin Malzahar Maokai MasterYi Mordekaiser Nasus Olaf Ornn Poppy RekSai Renekton Sejuani Shen Shyvana Singed Sion Syndra TahmKench Trundle Twitch Urgot Varus Vayne Velkoz Volibear Warwick MonkeyKing XinZhao Yasuo Yorick Zac (Thats 57 champions for those who don't want to count, about 39.86% of the cast has baseline options to help them deal with tanks, with some of these champions being designed as strict hard Tank counters)

Gee, I wonder why tank stats feel so bad to purchase? Lets exemplify this further by comparing "defensive offense items" to the actual big defense items that Tanks get: item 3812 30% Damage Delay w/ Spell Vamp vs item 3194 20% Magic Damage Reduction Against the Same Source After Its Already Been Dealt item 3026 Flat out revive for with 50% base health vs item 3193 Situational large defensive stats and can temporarily double your health with downside attached item 3046 12% Reduced Damage Against Your Target vs item 3110 15% Attack Speed Reduction Aura

Even if you could argue that sometimes the Tank items are more powerful, look how just... boring their stuff is. It doesn't innovate how you play hardly at all and is usually just a bundle of Tank stats, often thats not even gold efficient in the first place before all these extra ways of ignoring it come into the picture.

For example, for every 100 Armor I buy against an enemy team that has an ADC with item 3036 and anyone that can use item 3071 , Im actually only getting 49.4 Armor before any further reductions apply and ways of working around it apply. Majority of the Armor I purchased is almost completely wasted.

DerZermetzelteFeb 2, 20191 votes

Actually, due to the nonlinear scaling of defensive stats, Penetration/Shred items ( item 3020 item 3135 item 3036 item 3147 item 3071 etc) reduce the effectiveness of your stats by less than their percentual amount, since you're always taking off the "useless" top of the stack first (if that makes sense).

Yets4240Feb 2, 20195 votes

That's not true at all. Armor and MR have unit returns to scale, aka both are linear, as is health. There is no useless bit at the top. Every point of resist increase your effective health total against that damage type by 1%. You first point of armor is worth 1% pEHP, and your hundredth point of armor is still worth 1% pEHP.

Meep ManFeb 2, 20191 votes

Armor and MR doesn't scale non-linearly, it is just eventually more useful to build health since Armor and MR are essentially % increases to your health against the chosen damage type. More and more Armor and MR doesn't get less effective the more you get.

0 Armor = Physical damage just has to deal with your base health - It takes 2 seconds to kill you (lets say) 100 Armor = You have 100% more effective health vs Physical Damage - It takes 4 seconds to kill you 200 Armor = 200% more effective health - It takes 6 seconds to kill you 300 Armor = 300% more effective health - It takes 8 seconds to kill you 600 Armor = 600% more effective health - It takes 14 seconds to kill you

Technically, yes, it does provide less % damage reduction, but every 1% additional damage reduction you have is better than the last.

DerZermetzelteFeb 3, 20191 votes

I had a 3 paragraph essay on the use of different items here, but figured breaking it down to a talk about the meta would be simpler:

The items are fine (except BC maybe). If anything, I'd argue that champions just do too much these days in terms of %health damage and true damage. Most prominently champs with those effects attached to their basic attacks or spammable abilities. The devaluation of resistances does not come from the items that exist as a countermeasure to tanks, but rather from champs already having those effects allowing them to straight up build damage and get away with it, or allowing them to get additional measures leaving tanks without options into any direction. Mostly hybrid damage champs and champs with spammable true damage, which are often also strong in dps. Champs with occasional true damage (Syndra) or % damage (Malzahar, Mordekaiser, Nasus) are less of an issue as you make them out to be. Especially mages are rather limited in their anti-tank measures, aside from designated tank busters like Brand and VelKoz (Brand is just too strong in general though).

Also the most ironic examples: Out of the 57 champs you listed, 34 are either Tanks, Juggernauts or tanky fighters. Taking away % damage from these and returning to the wet-noodle era seems like a genuinly good (non-ironic) way of making League more strategic again.

Also wtf is with this heavy downvoting? I disagree with some views too, but it's not like they are completely wrong or contribute nothing.

BigFBearFeb 2, 20191 votes

Lol your list of champions is questionable. I don't play them all but I play Voli and he is absolute garbage vs Tanks. Why you even put him there? He has no Truedamage, he has no anti armor or anti MR he has no target max HP damage. Because of his W? It doesn't work with target max HP. It just says your W damaged is increased for every 1% target is missing. So if he deals 500 dmg vs a Squishy on 20% Life he also deals 500 dmg vs a Tank on 20% Life with the o ly difference that Tank has 60% AD reduction because of his Armor so it's more like 200 dmg.

Meep ManFeb 2, 20194 votes

His E does deal % health damage if you kept up with patch notes.

TyroneWatermelonFeb 2, 20194 votes

{quoted}

For example, for every 100 Armor I buy against an enemy team that has an ADC with and anyone that can use , Im actually only getting 49.4 Armor before any further reductions apply and ways of working around it apply. Majority of the Armor I purchased is almost completely wasted.

Funny because the majority of tank items are not cost efficient and some have shit build paths

TheSingularityFeb 2, 201913 votes

Because their items have been nerfed to the ground

Lost 200 when item 3194 replaced item 3102 . Gap shrunk to 150. item 3742 lost 175 hp item 1401 item 1413 10% bonus health item 3190 400 HP item 3143 100 HP item 3800 250 HP item 3065 50 HP item 3068 75 HP item 3083 200 HP

It's actually higher now at 1400 HP. So that's why I can't get 6k hp anymore...

Like, a huge help would be increasing final item costs, but then giving better stats. OG warmogs 1000 HP, 500 randuins/visage/deadmans/sunfire, 600 HP glory

Edit: MR and armor bonus round! armor=20 item 3075 + 30 item 3143 + 5 item 3025 +20 item 3026 +20 removal of ancient golem = 95 armor lost MR=15 item 3102 + 15 item 3065 + 45 =75 magic resist lost

SaevumFeb 2, 20191 votes

Well, Raduin's used to give 500 hp in it's prime release. So it's actually 150 hp loss after several patches.

TheSingularityFeb 2, 20192 votes

Check your math there ;) 400 now, used to be 500. 100 health lost

SaevumFeb 2, 20193 votes

Oh, i lost track of it after the 350. Still nerfed tho.

PrinceOfStormsFeb 2, 201912 votes

Conqueror. Riot needs to completely delete that keystone entirely, bruisers be damned. Or make it only build up stacks while in combat with champions, and remove the auto refresh melee champions get with it.

GayFluffyUnicornFeb 3, 20191 votes

Sure but then we nerf every tank in the game. every tank item in the game, nerf grasp like four times, nerf aftershock and we are good to go.

PrinceOfStormsFeb 5, 20191 votes

Nah just delete conqueror and make no other changes.

The thigh guyFeb 2, 201911 votes

Tank stats feel so bad to build because they are bad. They just get ignored by every champion now

jocomotionFeb 2, 20197 votes

I blame early game penetration as well as the bonus true damage in item 3031 , as well as general buffs to each champion as the game goes on causing damage to steadily increase over time while tank stats for the most part have remained the same....

But this is the boards so instead I’ll blame.... uhhh let’s just say riot, yeah. It’s riots fault. Now upvote.

BigFBearFeb 2, 20196 votes

Health seems to be the best tank stat

Health only feels like shit without Armor. Go and build only health! Everyone and his grandmother will hit big chunks out of your HP-Bar.

SaevumFeb 2, 20192 votes

Remember, we still have tabis untouched. It's the armor holy grail item to go right now.

VelasanFeb 3, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Remember, we still have tabis untouched. It's the armor holy grail item to go right now.

Actually pretty sure they nerfed the amount of basic attack reduction tabi's gave a while ago.

SaevumFeb 3, 20193 votes

I checked.

v8.7

Ok, ill probably actually quit the game with a few more disturbing nerfs. Not joking.

HarrowïngFeb 2, 20195 votes

If tanks were viable again then we would have the wet noodle slap fest that is top for LCS again, and Riot just can't have boring LCS games.

Hayaishi2Feb 2, 201914 votes

[{quoted}](name=Akashic Torment,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KPfZM1vh,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-02-02T05:09:42.234+0000)

If tanks were viable again then we would have the wet noodle slap fest that is top for LCS again, and Riot just can't have boring LCS games.

And yet tanks are still picked left and right in LCS, only thing they did was gut the class for the players that enjoyed it.

XonraFeb 2, 20192 votes

Watching a game right now and there are 3 tanks, 2 which are support. The one that isn't a support is widely said to need a nerf at the moment because he is far too strong in the late game and near unkillable cause of overtuned numbers (Sion). The only reason people pick these tank supports is specifically because of their engage (Braum and Alistar).

Game before that it was the same with the same 2 supports as the game before that and so on. These two supports are on autopilot, and Sejuani was the tank jungler because Riot WAY over buffed her and she is just strong because of that and no other reason.

GayFluffyUnicornFeb 3, 20191 votes

With the trade off that now everyone gets to enjoy the game not only the tank player.

ModCaptainMårvelousFeb 2, 20194 votes

Because mid-tier tank items feel flat-out worse than most other mid-tier items.

Something like Zeal, Hexdrinker, Jaurim's Fist, any component of Trinity or Lost Chapter all give you a pretty big boost and a tangible increase in power. You can usually tell the difference between a Nasus that doesn't have Sheen vs. a Nasus that does have Sheen. And yeah, it's not true of every item but they all feel like a decent increase to power in some regard.

Then you get to tank mid-tiers. For one thing, tank stats have the greatest need to "overlap" with each other. Building a ton of armor means nothing if you don't have health. Crit is similar but even without AD to back it up, a lucky crit early will still feel pretty strong in a fight. Following this you have the fact that most tank items are very small, unnoticeable stack sticks. Honestly the only one I "feel" is Bami's cinder but that's when I jungle, not so much in lane (Bramblevest did too until it got nerfed). Then finally even though end/completed tank items feel better and have a tangible impact on what you do, by this time people are rocking items that feel even stronger. It's hard to gauge something like Spirit Visage or Adaptive Helmet when you might just...I don't know. Not fight someone whose AP?

Overall, tank stats feel bad because they have the least amount of feedback. When a tank item is strong, you don't really notice to any major degree other than "I'm alive". When a tank item is weak, it feels bad because you don't feel any stronger.

XonraFeb 2, 20193 votes

Because riot has added so many other stats and items into the game to hard counter tank stats. So unless your champion has it hard wired into their kit to better use those stats like a Malphite, the offensive counterparts are just multiplicatively better.

MankeyMadnessFeb 2, 20193 votes

item 3001 item 3153 {{item: item 3031 item 3035 item 3036 item 3151

To add to this list, they also removed a lot of value in Tank items- item 3026 lost MR item 3068 / item 3742 are literal jokes item 3075 isn't as strong as before item 1401 got absolutely destroyed and since the biggest tank items like DMP and Randuins give less HP than before and Runes Reforged has lower health gains unless you take Grasp this nerf is twofold - CH gives less HP but magnifies other sources more; but other sources are ALSO nerfed so you're gaining 5-10% bonus hp but also losing 400+ HP. And sure your 1 item armor might be higher but once you complete FH or Thornmail it's even or less than before.

And to keep tanks ""balanced"" they tack 160 damage onto the last rank of the skill they only need 1 point in and level last anyway. And then they make towers weaker, games faster and tank items more expensive to ensure no one but ADC reaches late game.

Because as long as the bot lane can strike their God complex riot is fine with the state of the game. This is what years of Ghostcrawler does to a game - even if he's gone now replaced by (was it Reav3 or) Meddler and soon Jatt, it'll take a long while before it gets better. If they're even allowed to fix it. Which if China prefers season 8s meta no amount of European or American/Canadian etc. whining will do squat.