What DotA actually did right

WoonStruck··32 votes·3,537 views

DotA reserved most of the significant hard CC for melee characters. Ranged characters actually paid for their advantage in a pure power standpoint. (Keep in mind Melees often have 'bash', which is essentially an RNG stun, directly in their kit. Think old Phage/Trinity, but stuns instead.)

Ranged character hard CC was all very situational, short, or limited in some way. In addition, mobility was often a weakness of ranged characters, with the exception of ones like Queen of Pain, who was a significant problem at various points.

That's without even factoring in turn-speed or BKB, which LoL will never incorporate.

I'm not saying DotA is a better game. It has just as many issues as LoL. But you can't deny that its a solid balance decision.

Ranged should give up other advantages for being ranged.

After that issue's tackled, let's talk about mana and manaless champions and the 'sacrifices' they make.

Can any Rioters give any input towards this outside of the "We're a different game with different design" excuse? Range will always have a huge advantage over melee, no matter what the game is unless melee is simply over-tuned. This is why Ranged must give up certain power, just like melee gives up power in being melee as opposed to ranged.

58 Comments

ModCaptainMårvelous18 votes

Straight up?

Flash.

Flash, accessible on everyone, turned the game into a dash-heavy spectacle. Melee characters, some of which have a dash or a speed boost, had flash. Which would drastically be a terror to any ranged who had only flash. So more champs came out with a dash (Graves), a strong CC spell (Varus/Trist) or sometimes both (Caitlyn/Vayne). To combat this, melee characters had to have multiple tools to get in/get out or have them on such a short CD that they'd be able to close the gap as quickly as possible (See: Any melee assassin and LeStronk)

If they were to completely gut flash? It'd completely, utterly change the game and the course of design.

Dominick Destine13 votes

But you can't deny that its a solid balance decision.

Uhh no. The difference is; A ranged character in DotA is waaaay higher ranger than a ranged character in LoL. When I came from Heroes of Newerth (The original "DotA 2"), the first thing I noticed was that. The ranged characters had such tremendously low range... I was used to Wretched Hag's "550 range" which is the equivalent of like 1,000 range in DotA... let alone spell range.

Deadwood's Q which is similar to Cho'Gath's Q.... has like 2,000+ range compared to Cho'Gath's Q. You can throw from almost a full screen distance whereas Cho'Gath's Q is less than a half screen range. I'm talking about center-point not radius.

Basically, the reason why character power , in this case utility, are higher, is because base attributes are lower and weaker. It's not complicated.

By the way... I call bullshit on OPs nonsense; Pugna has an extremely powerful disable on low CD, uhh, the guy that is the equivalent of Witch Slayer ... uhh... possibly Demon Witch ? OHHH it's LION.... who has a fairly middish CD AoE knock-up stun in conjunction with a Hex ability totaling like a 6 second hard disable, SIX SECOND NON ULTIMATE HARD DISABLE(on two skills) , fuck that, I'm glad League of Legends is not like that all.

WoonStruck1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KNx7wZZL,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2016-01-31T03:35:21.211+0000)

Uhh no. The difference is; A ranged character in DotA is waaaay higher ranger than a ranged character in LoL. When I came from Heroes of Newerth (The original "DotA 2"), the first thing I noticed was that. The ranged characters had such tremendously low range... I was used to Wretched Hag's "550 range" which is the equivalent of like 1,000 range in DotA... let alone spell range.

Deadwood's Q which is similar to Cho'Gath's Q.... has like 2,000+ range compared to Cho'Gath's Q. You can throw from almost a full screen distance whereas Cho'Gath's Q is less than a half screen range. I'm talking about center-point not radius.

Basically, the reason why character power , in this case utility, are higher, is because base attributes are lower and weaker. It's not complicated.

By the way... I call bullshit on OPs nonsense; Pugna has an extremely powerful disable on low CD, uhh, the guy that is the equivalent of Witch Slayer ... uhh... possibly Demon Witch ? OHHH it's LION.... who has a fairly middish CD AoE knock-up stun in conjunction with a Hex ability totaling like a 6 second hard disable, SIX SECOND NON ULTIMATE HARD DISABLE(on two skills) , fuck that, I'm glad League of Legends is not like that all.

In this game, you have high burst damage attached to CC on a relatively low CD. That's almost synonymous with mage. The mana costs are often inconsequential, and many items allow you to bypass costs completely if they are significant.

Not to mention build-paths don't give you as huge of an amount of stats in DotA, compared to League, especially when considering cost. Most of them are pretty punishing until you complete the items.

That's why snowballing is so easy in League. You scale hard with the offensive stats you buy. Skills scale hard in general. Its often impossible to come back from a loss vs a ranged. Its entirely possible to come back from a loss vs melee in lane.

Ranged characters are usually slower than melee. Yet in League, we have things like Vayne or Gnar that bypass this obvious solution completely. Not to mention Fmal even being possible to buy for ranged champs.

Also, CC is longer in DotA in general. 6 seconds in dota is pretty middle-ground, and BKB exists as well. There are legitimate counters to heavy CC, unlike in this game. And, of course, CC is going to sound OP from DotA because its OP in League. In DotA, CC is pretty balanced overall. Nobody like fucking Lissandra exists.

Dominick Destine8 votes

{quoted}

In this game, you have high burst damage attached to CC on a relatively low CD.

I see your argument and raise you a Lion. Next.

Not to mention build-paths don't give you as huge of an amount of stats in DotA

Sheep stick, BKB. Next.

That's why snowballing is so easy in League.

LOL. Snowballing is infinitely easier in DotA... items in DotA are more expensive but global gold is significantly more scarce. Furthermore, power spike items like Sheep stick, BKB or Dagon are way more significant as they are burst benefits as opposed to gradual build up in LoL (Ex: Gunblade effect, spooky ghosts, etc.).

Epic fail man.

Ranged characters are usually slower than melee.

Which tends to be the same in LoL.

Yet in League, we have things like Vayne or Gnar that bypass this obvious solution completely.

Terrible examples.

Vayne is built around mobility and sustained damage at the cost of having no AoE or poke. Gnar is balanced entirely around randomly entering melee-mode. By your terrible argument I could say exactly the same thing about Troll warlord which violates literally every single argument you've made because he has everything you claim to be "wrong".

Nobody like fucking Lissandra exists.

Lissandra is hella weak... you sound salty and terrible.

None of your arguments hold any water.

Yatsufuså3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KNx7wZZL,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2016-01-31T04:30:14.900+0000)

I see your argument and raise you a Lion. Next.

Sheep stick. Next.

LOL. Snowballing is infinitely easier in DotA... items in DotA are more expensive but global gold is significantly more scarce. Furthermore, power spike items like Sheep stick, BKB or Dagon are way more significant as they are burst benefits as opposed to gradual build up in LoL (Ex: Gunblade effect, spooky ghosts, etc.).

Epic fail man.

Which tends to be the same in LoL.

Terrible examples.

Vayne is built around mobility and sustained damage at the cost of having no AoE or poke. Gnar is balanced entirely around randomly entering melee-mode. By your terrible argument I could say exactly the same thing about Troll warlord which violates literally every single argument you've made because he has everything you claim to be "wrong".

Lissandra is hella weak... you sound salty and terrible.

None of your arguments hold any water.

I always see it like this. I try to imagine a DotA hero in a league game (like terrorblade, faceless void, goblin techies) and think "nah they'd be 2 OP"

then I think

what about a League champion in a DotA game "after ap/ad conversions and whatnot, they'd be a bit undertuned"

that's just my 2 cents. I've always found it 100% easier to 1v5 in DotA (DotA 1, not DotA 2) as Lucifer or Huskar or Traxex than I have ever been able to 1v3 as Katarina or Udyr or Nautilus

WoonStruck5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KNx7wZZL,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2016-01-31T04:30:14.900+0000)

I see your argument and raise you a Lion. Next.

One character breaks all arguments. I see.

Sheep stick, BKB. Next.

Two items as opposed to the numerous snowball-inducing build-orders in League.

LOL. Snowballing is infinitely easier in DotA... items in DotA are more expensive but global gold is significantly more scarce. Furthermore, power spike items like Sheep stick, BKB or Dagon are way more significant as they are burst benefits as opposed to gradual build up in LoL (Ex: Gunblade effect, spooky ghosts, etc.).

In DotA you actually have the ability to acquire tools to disable significantly fed people

Epic fail man.

Speak for yourself.

Which tends to be the same in LoL.

Constant slows in LoL give range a much, much greater advantage.

Terrible examples.

Vayne is built around mobility and sustained damage at the cost of having no AoE or poke. Gnar is balanced entirely around randomly entering melee-mode. By your terrible argument I could say exactly the same thing about Troll warlord which violates literally every single argument you've made because he has everything you claim to be "wrong".

There are plenty of sustained damage, mobile champions who do not have all of the "I win" tools that Vayne has vs melee. Gnar is not random at all. Something not being on-demand does not make it random. Besides, its mini form that I'm arguing about. You don't see many melee champions with 3 hit % hp damage and consistently increased MS.

Also, Troll warlord has one of the slowest Turn Speeds in the game, which is a huge factor of balance. He can use it to chase/engage, he cannot use it to kite very effectively. So yes, my argument is still valid even though he exists in DotA.

Lissandra is hella weak... you sound salty and terrible.

Lissandra has been a huge problem any time she was strong, and she has been at points. Why? Because decent dps, good damage, mobility, lots of CC. Ranged.

None of your arguments hold any water.

No, few of yours do.

Dominick Destine4 votes

{quoted}

One character breaks all arguments. I see.

I am not as well versed in DotA as you (obviously) so that's the only example I have off-hand but I am 100% positive that it's not the only one. You know this, so quit playing coy. You got owned.

Two items as opposed to the numerous snowball-inducing build-orders in League.

Again, two strong and direct counter-examples .... your response is "THOSE DONT COUNT LOLOLOL"? yeah nice one.

In DotA you actually have the ability to acquire tools to disable significantly fed people

What's your point? that actually works against you precisely because of how brokenly op Sheep Stick is... are they still soft-banning in tournaments? that's how broken it was the last time I checked (Soft ban was rule limiting to 1-per team).

Constant slows in LoL give range a much, much greater advantage.

Uhhh no. No they do not.

There are plenty of sustained damage, mobile champions who do not have all of the "I win" tools that Vayne has vs melee.

Evelynn is melee and rapes Vayne. Same with Riven andTalon .... don't like to use burst? how about Nasus ? your arguments are terrible.

Gnar is not random at all.

Fair enough, I retract that statement. Let me rephrase and say 'uncontrollably' which is accurate.

Also, Troll warlord has one of the slowest Turn Speeds in the game, which is a huge factor of balance.

Irrelevant.

Easy access to stuns that bypass BKB. High movement speed ON A RANGED CHARACTER. Absurd levels of scaling which spike ridiculously hard. Everything you say about LoL packaged in one beautifully broken character. Yep.

Lissandra has been a huge problem any time she was strong, and she has been at points. Why? Because decent dps, good damage, mobility, lots of CC. Ranged.

Lissandra is one of the shortest ranged mages coupled with mediocre burst. The only times she's been a problem is when the game itself becomes fundamentally flawed. Lissandra herself has never been nerfed if I recall... she's been getting straight buffs or lateral buffs since release so... what are you even talking about?

No, few of yours do.

No actually all of my arguments are based on reality. I have played both.... I played a ton of DotA, a ton of HoN and not so much DotA 2 but I am confident that what I am saying is grounded in reality.

You're talking about Lissandra as if she's overpowered ..... and that's really your only example. So continued epic fail. You are talking nonsense, sir.

TurquoiseYoshi1 votes

I'd just like to make the note, as someone who pretty much specializes in champions, Lissandra's recent strength in the pros is a combination of multiple things, including RoA and FQC synergy, her high utility in E and R, and the fact that she's a squishy-ish mid laner that can still reliably engage teamfights with a E-Flash-W-Self Ult combo.

Her weaknesses are her bad waveclear late and her relatively low single-target damage alone, and her strengths are in her utility and ability to have a single-target targeted CC like Nautilus, but on a carry. Take what you will from that.

Slamurai Jack3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KNx7wZZL,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2016-01-31T04:30:14.900+0000)

Lissandra is hella weak...

And also extremely popular in pro play right now. Do pros know best or not? Careful before answering, you like to point to pro play to support your opinions.

Dominick Destine3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KNx7wZZL,comment-id=0005000000000002,timestamp=2016-01-31T05:53:04.883+0000)

Careful before answering, you like to point to pro play to support your opinions.

http://champion.gg/champion/Lissandra 47.8% win rate. In Plat and above. 3.6% play rate. In Plat and above. Abysmally low stats when joined together, low pick rate inflates win rate.... do the math. Checkmate , mate. Non ironic.

Also more to the point; The person we're talking about is not a professional, neither are you, neither am I. Leave professional play out of the arguments of someone that barely even understands the game (OP, obviously)... even though if you still did, statistics are on my side, not yours... or more to the point, I made my conclusions based on statistics rather than prior... as he did.

Slamurai Jack7 votes

Never said I disagreed with you, let that be very clear. I think she's fine. He winrate reaches a very serviceable 53% in both roles once you actually get some games on her. Her overall winrate is pretty low simply because the playerbase isn't very experienced with her, being in the bottom 25% of champions for both roles. Overall winrate has always scaled very hard with the experience of the playerbase and Lissandra is far below par in that category. But you're right, the stats make a very good case that Lissandra isn't anywhere near OP. I was merely poking fun at the fact that you have shown a willingness in the past to ignore those very stats and defer to pro play when it suits you.

Dominick Destine2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KNx7wZZL,comment-id=000500000000000200000000,timestamp=2016-01-31T07:25:19.388+0000)

He winrate reaches a very serviceable 53% in both roles once you actually get some games on her.

We don't make arguments based on fringe groups of a character being played, otherwise statistics would have no meaning.

By that logic, every single character has high win rate.

Her overall winrate is pretty low simply because the playerbase isn't very experienced with her

Bad argument, see previous response.

I was merely poking fun at the fact that you have shown a willingness in the past to ignore those very stats and defer to pro play when it suits you.

Incorrect.

In this case the player I was addressing is specifically a very bad player that is poorly informed. Bringing professional play into the argument is muddying the waters at best and 100% nonsequitur at worst.

Slamurai Jack6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KNx7wZZL,comment-id=0005000000000002000000000000,timestamp=2016-01-31T08:01:06.987+0000)

We don't make arguments based on fringe groups of a character being played, otherwise statistics would have no meaning.

By that logic, every single character has high win rate.

Do you even look at the data before claiming it doesn't matter? Seriously, I'd like to know. Because it really isn't that hard. Once you have more than 15 games on Lissandra mid, your winrate shoots up massively. Your winrate with her before those 15 games is absolutely abysmal. That change is from around 43% to around 52%. However, the majority of Lissandra mid players still have more than 15 games, with around 52% of Lissandra players breaking that threshold. That's not a "fringe group". That's a clear majority that we can see because we have the data right there. However, the remaining 48% of Lissandra players have 15 or less games on her where her winrate is absolutely abysmal. Add that 52% and 48% together and you have a overall winrate that in completely unrepresentative of Lissandra's actual power because nearly half her playerbase barely knows how to play her. Lissandra top's curve is more uneven but shares the same pattern: winrate goes up substantially once you have a decent number of games on her.

And no, overall winrate being drug down by an inexperienced playerbase is not a bad argument; it's literally one of the most consistently true arguments we have available. The best example of this is Kindred. Their overall winrate is 49%, which makes them seem balanced at first glance. However, the average Kindred only has 19 games on them, which is the second lowest level of experience for all junglers. A solid half of Kindreds playerbase has played them less than 5 times, where their winrate is 45.5%. However, their winrate goes up massively and consistently with increased experience: 47% at 5-15 games, 53% at 15-50 games, 60% at 50-125 games, and 63.5% at 125+ games. That paints the picture of an extremely strong champion who's overall winrate is massively suppressed by a very inexperienced playerbase.

Also, we can observe a consistent pattern of a champions winrate slowly rising over time without changes to the champion itself simply because of the playerbase becoming more experienced at the champion, especially on high skill champions. The best example of this is Yasuo in Season 5. At the beginning of the season, his winrate was only around 45% and the average Yasuo player had only around 30 games on him. Fast forward a year and the average Yasuo player has around 110 games on him and and an overall winrate of around 48%. However, he's objectively weaker now than he was at the start of Season 5 because Yasuo mains, those with 125+ games, are only winning around 52% of the time now when they were winning around 56% of the time at the start of season 5. He's significantly worse than he was before but his overall winrate is better because the playerbase as a whole actually knows how to play the champion now.

Dominick Destine1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KNx7wZZL,comment-id=00050000000000020000000000000000,timestamp=2016-01-31T08:32:54.069+0000)

Do you even look at the data before claiming it doesn't matter? Seriously, I'd like to know. Because it really isn't that hard. Once you have more than 15 games on Lissandra mid, your winrate shoots up massively.

I understand your argument, it's just that your argument is bullshit.

The other day on Champion gg I saw... I think it was caitlyn... or another adc I don't remember, with like 67% win rate using the right runes (Highest % win rate runes) and I was like "Lol, that's... nice". You are stacking the deck hard by only considering a fringe group that, by definition will have a higher win rate than the rest of groups because, surprise surprise, it's isolating the highest win percentage group.

You should know this, it's not complicated.

And no, overall winrate being drug down by an inexperienced playerbase is not a bad argument

That's a bad argument of which I can present several strong counter arguments for; LeeSin Yasuo Thresh Riven

Basically you're arguing outliers which is a terrible argument and once again you know this... the rest of your argument was fluff text, the salient points have been addressed.

Slamurai Jack1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KNx7wZZL,comment-id=000500000000000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-02-01T16:17:43.519+0000)

That's a bad argument of which I can present several strong counter arguments for; LeeSin Yasuo Thresh Riven

Did I not just write an entire paragraph explaining how Yasuo's winrate went up slowly over time due to an increasingly experienced playerbase? I'm pretty sure I just did. And that argument applys to all 3 of those other champions even more so because their playerbase is even more experienced at their champions. Especially Riven. The average Riven has 183 games. Any Riven you face is far more likely than not to be more experienced in the matchup than you unless you're playing a very unpopular champion. And her winrate is still garbage because Riven is still a weak champion.

Seriously bro, stop being a fucking idiot. You know why % experience by games played is a valid piece of data and highest % win rate runes isn't. You know why 25%+ of a total data sample is relevant and <5% isn't. Half of Lissandra's playerbase wins around 52% of the time and the other half wins around 42% of the time. Giving more weight to that first group is not considering a fringe group, it's correctly assuming that the more experienced majority gives a better overall picture of Lissandra's power than her playerbase as a whole thanks to her playerbases relative inexperience with the champion. And that's how Riot balances the game too; they've always balanced around mastery of a champion, not overall performance. And that's how you have to balance.

There are plenty of champions with balanced and low overall winrates that are actually really strong but held back by an inexperienced playerbase. Problem is, none of the champs you just listed fall into that category. All 4 of them have playerbases far more experienced than average and still have below average winrates. Thresh has the most experienced playerbase out of all supports (Fiddles is not a support) and his winrate still sucks. Riven is 2nd of all top laners, only behind Wukong. Lee And Yasuo are both in the top 25% for their role, still below average performance. You want some actual examples of good champions held back by inexperienced playerbases? Kindred, Gragas, Gangplank and Jax.

Dominick Destine1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KNx7wZZL,comment-id=0005000000000002000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-02-01T18:00:33.281+0000)

Did I not just write an entire paragraph explaining how Yasuo's winrate went up slowly over time due to an increasingly experienced playerbase?

Or, and stay with me on this, Yasuo became more overpowered as time went by. Warlord's Bloodlust and a nerf to all mages both point to this.

Champion gg is down right now (for some reason) but I checked it earlier today and he's still below 50%, significantly so.

snip

A bunch of fallacious nonsense that I already refuted.

There are plenty of champions with balanced and low overall winrates

That's because win rate in isolation is not a good argument, you know this.

You are arguing outliers again and again, I am telling you that is fallacious, that is nonsense. There is no argument by which you can mathematically justify using outliers as the norm. It's that simple, gg.

Slamurai Jack1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KNx7wZZL,comment-id=00050000000000020000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-02-01T18:12:36.980+0000)

Or, and stay with me on this, Yasuo became more overpowered as time went by. Warlord's Bloodlust and a nerf to all mages both point to this.

Or, his winrate slowly went up from 45% to 51% throughout season 5 before preseason even started. I know you're dense as fuck but follow me on this. Yasuo's winrate at the start of Season 5 was 45% and his playerbase had an average of 30 games played. Yasuo's winrate at the end of Season 5 on the last day of patch 5.21 was 51% and his playerbase had an average of 110 games. What changes affected Yasuo during the course of Season 5? A shield rebalance in 5.8 that had a neutral effect and a bugfix on his Q in 5.14 making his ranged tornado apply on hits properly. That's it. None of his items changed during the course of the entire season and both changes he received during the season made no movement in his winrate.

And yet, it still went up 6% over the course of the season. Why? Because people learned how to fucking play him. He had one of the least experienced playerbases in the game at the start of the season and slowly went from among the lowest to well above average. Yasuo mains, those with 125+ games sat at around 54-56% the entire season. They're at around 52% now. That means Yasuo is weaker than he was before preseason, not stronger. You can try to argue with "muh Warlords" and "muh 100% crit 2 items" all you want. Those 2 things, while being good for Yasuo, do not anywhere near make up for how much power was drained from Shiv and IE overall, especially Shiv. The absolute gutting of Shiv's damage to champions turned Yasuo's 1 item powerspike from one of the strongest in the game to one of the weakest. That in combination with the lower AD from IE has made Yasuo's Shiv+IE powerspike a shadow of of its former self. And when an extremely item dependent champion has their 2 core items nerfed, their performance suffers considerably. This isn't rocket science man.

Dominick Destine1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KNx7wZZL,comment-id=000500000000000200000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-02-01T18:38:27.840+0000)

Or, his winrate slowly went up from 45% to 51% throughout season 5 before preseason even started. I know you're dense as fuck but follow me on this. Yasuo's winrate at the start of Season 5 was 45% and his playerbase had an average of 30 games played. Yasuo's winrate at the end of Season 5 on the last day of patch 5.21 was 51% and his playerbase had an average of 110 games. What changes affected Yasuo during the course of Season 5? A shield rebalance in 5.8 that had a neutral effect and a bugfix on his Q in 5.14 making his ranged tornado apply on hits properly. That's it. None of his items changed during the course of the entire season and both changes he received during the season made no movement in his winrate.

Alright sweetheart, you talk a lot of trash but do you have anything back up your assertions? I know you don't but I'd like to see you squirm while you try to justify your nonsense.

Yasuo's winrate at the end of Season 5 on the last day of patch 5.21 was 51%

Oh gee, one day of 51% , that sure proves me wrong...... what is statistically insignificant for 500 Alex

Slamurai Jack1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KNx7wZZL,comment-id=0005000000000002000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-02-01T18:56:01.389+0000)

Oh gee, one day of 51% , that sure proves me wrong...... what is statistically insignificant for 500 Alex

You can't be this fucking stupid. Of course it wasn't 51% for just 1 day, that's just what it was on the very final day, as well as the entirety of patch 5.21. I'm seriously done with this. I refuse to waste any more time on someone who has no idea what arguing in good faith means. You go ahead and have your biases with with no grounds to stand on; I'm going to just go out and continue beating those champions easily and surpass you just like I already have.

Dominick Destine1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KNx7wZZL,comment-id=00050000000000020000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-02-01T19:07:36.736+0000)

Of course it wasn't 51% for just 1 day

.

do you have anything back up your assertions?

I asked that and your answer was... SURVEY SAYS; No.

I'm going to just go out and continue beating those champions easily and surpass you just like I already have.

Mmm I love that / that's what I like to hear ... in fact, it gets me excited just to read that.

I accept your challenge and I will surpass you, that is my goal. I salute you my fellow rival.

Slamurai Jack1 votes

The only data I have available at this point is Yasuo's pick and winrate now and in 5.21. Mid Lane Yasuo: 50.1% winrate and 13.4% pickate in 5.21, 47.4% winrate and 8% pickrate in 6.1. Top Lane Yasuo: 51% winrate and 6% pickrate in 5.21, 49% winrate and 2.5% pickrate in 6.1. Champion.gg doesn't have the data for 6.2 yet for some reason but I would be amazed if pattern doesn't hold true.

And while it wasn't exactly a challenge, I'll be more than happy to play it that way. Sounds fun. GL on the rift friend.

Catastrop1 votes

Sssshh, don't bring too much attention to her. The fact that she was picked just means that Riot's probably set their sights on her, I don't need the boards to start talking as well.

Transgressor12 votes

I disagree.

DotA has a different way of balancing the roster.

Riot balances everything across everything which has lead to power-creeps and disparities between shitty inovation and shitty ancient design(relic champs). They also refuse to learn and adapt, they instead prefer swapping their buzzwords for eloquate PR bullshit. Clarity in LoL however is quite prominant, leading to a friendly environment that's welcoming for players to get into the core systems, despite them being really not that difficult/challening themselves.

DotA has a certain amount of balance, but it eventually bottles down to "if everyone is OP, then nobody is OP". It does work in creating a nice gameplay environment, just like Smite, but it creates you know, overpowered as fuck characters. And they stick out like a sore thumb. Clarity in DotA is also a non-existant factor. To get to the core of DotA, you have to climb a learning curve so steep it's 49,9~ degrees, while wearing a welding mask.

I also don't like this disparity between classes. Being ranged doesn't automatically have to mean no CC. You can bind the CC on skill by making it a skillshot, give it travel time, give it a thin hitbox, give it low damage(or even no damage)to go with, give it high resource costs, give it high base cooldown, make it require decent decision-making, make it situational etc etc. Likewise with mobility, you can bind it in different facts, Kalista however is not the way to do it; you can't get infinite mobility for right-clicking. You can have mobility trigger under specific circumstances for example, or make it an ultimate, or give it variables, high base cooldown, high resource cost, make it punish you for wasting it or using it improperly.

Birefringence4 votes

This is what happens when you decide to focus on quantity rather than quality in the way Riot has. There is no excuse for some things particular champions in a given class get away with for the sake of being unique.

TurquoiseYoshi5 votes

A note on Kalista is that it actually isn't that bad, she just gets way too much on top of that, like free CS, vision, engage, and a save for a support. That's pretty much the problem with every CertainlyT champion.

DucksAreMagical7 votes

Dota and LoL are quite different apart from being MOBAs its like comparing, CoD & Battlefield yes they both are FPSes but thats about it in mechanics point.

League you can build straight AP/AD Dota you cannot only increase your ATTACK damage, ability damage is fixed.

These are only some of the differences.

WoonStruck11 votes

{quoted}

Dota and LoL are quite different apart from being MOBAs its like comparing, CoD & Battlefield yes they both are FPSes but thats about it in mechanics point.

League you can build straight AP/AD Dota you cannot only increase your ATTACK damage, ability damage is fixed.

The fact that you can build straight AD/AP is part of the exact reason why ranged and melee should have drastic differences they have to weigh. Range is a HUGE power disparity in this game, as well as mobility simply because you can go glass cannon.

Ranged champions should be moved away from hard crowd control for this exact reason. Some of them have mobility AND hard CC. It doesn't even apply to ADCs being low CC unless they have overall low damage. With Ashe being reworked, varus, kalista, jinx... the latest two being hypercarries at points.

It shows that Riot's got a few things wrong for ranged vs melee when every ranged character that gets reworked becomes broken, while every melee has so many frills added so they can function that they're bound to be powerful.

Riot needs to revisit the value of range and start balancing accordingly.

Tohob10 votes

it's always baffled me that i'm the only one who isn't okay with Vayne she's got a low-cooldown dash similar to that of Graves or Lucian but with an even better side effect she's the only ADC with non-ultimate hard CC in her knockback that can also become even harder CC if she hits a wall and on top of all that she's got the HIGHEST potential damage of any adc?

[zombie-brand-mindblown]

Ratbert8 votes

She's also the only adc with pure single target abilities and 550 effective range.

mason water9 votes

{quoted}

it's always baffled me that i'm the only one who isn't okay with Vayne she's got a low-cooldown dash similar to that of Graves or Lucian but with an even better side effect she's the only ADC with non-ultimate hard CC in her knockback that can also become even harder CC if she hits a wall and on top of all that she's got the HIGHEST potential damage of any adc?

[zombie-brand-mindblown]

have you ever played against a draven?

Tohob2 votes

right, i forgot there's another adc with non-ultimate hard CC. not as effective as hers though

Sire Hippington7 votes

thst vastly depends on the situation. Draens E often can cockblock engages, even off multiple opponents at once and is less conditional in it's offensive use.

AVL Prince4 votes

Uhm?

Cait, Jinx, Graves (Vision cut), and quinn all have non-ultimate hard CC wired into their kits. That's not mentioned Draven (Because it already was) or the ultimate CC that is incorporated in other kits.

ElysMustache4 votes

Those are soft CC.

My Waifu Vanilla10 votes

No one plays against Draven. Draven just lets you all be in the same game as him so you can bask in his glory.

TeCoolMage2 votes

To be completely fair, her Q cooldown is a few seconds longer when running away due to the fact the cooldown doesn't start until you auto with an empowered auto attack,

Her CC is the real problem though, she gets damage like Kog but doesn't sacrifice self peel or anything.

Renaille3 votes

{quoted}

Dota you cannot only increase your ATTACK damage, ability damage is fixed.

Not entirely true. Many heros have abilities that scale with a stat, and Aghs powers up abilities. dota doesn't need Ubiquitous spell scaling because 95% of abilities deal magic damage and most heros will only be able to reach the equivilant of 90 league mr since items don't stack, those that don't buy an mr item will be left at 50(excluding ~7 who can have more).

Yatsufuså1 votes

{quoted}

Not entirely true. Many heros have abilities that scale with a stat, and Aghs powers up abilities. dota doesn't need Ubiquitous spell scaling because 95% of abilities deal magic damage and most heros will only be able to reach the equivilant of 90 league mr since items don't stack, those that don't buy an mr item will be left at 50(excluding ~7 who can have more).

Necro'lic can get up to 45 armor.... and that's a LOT in dota. I love Visage so much

Johnny Jewstar2 votes

Not entirely true. IceFrog has continually added items that increase spell damage as well as Aghs which already increases your ultimate/and other abilities. Veil of Discord and Ether Lens are the most popular options for increasing spell damage.

A lot has changed within the last two to three patches and the game is completely different. Aether Lens for example increases all of your item/spell range.

Catastrop7 votes

You also need to remember, DotA has Dagon 5 and Skywrath Mage's Agh's upgrade. You're comparing two completely different games, just because something works in one, means it's going to work in the other.

Cowgirl Ed5 votes

It's not about Dota getting it right, it's just fucking common sense (that Riot proved multiple times they don't have)

WoonStruck6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kiss Kiss Kiss,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KNx7wZZL,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-01-31T00:59:29.546+0000)

It's not about Dota getting it right, it's just fucking common sense (that Riot proved multiple times they don't have)

This.

While its a bit harsh, Riot does refuse to revisit problems that stem from the inception of the game. Fundamental balance issues that they won't fix because they've been there since the beginning.

So you are not wrong, but you could stand to be a little more inviting so reds might actually listen to topics of complaint.

Cowgirl Ed3 votes

{quoted}

This.

While its a bit harsh, Riot does refuse to revisit problems that stem from the inception of the game. Fundamental balance issues that they won't fix because they've been there since the beginning.

So you are not wrong, but you could stand to be a little more inviting so reds might actually listen to topics of complaint.

You talk like they want to fix the game. Tip: They don't want.

SleepyLionCub4 votes

Dota also has a champion with a spammable 5000 range caitlyn q.

WoonStruck4 votes

{quoted}

Dota also has a champion with a spammable 5000 range caitlyn q.

Who is also considered extremely weak because he doesn't serve any distinct purpose outside of long range. And he pays for that range. A character with 5000 range spammable ability would be the most broken thing in LoL cause he wouldn't pay for it in any way.

Point taken.

P.S. Windranger has 2600 and is actually useful.

ZT Xperimentor4 votes

Yeah dota, league, and smite could all learn some things from eachother; too bad they refuse to get along long enough to recognize their own faults.

flibitydoo3 votes

Except there is a good amount of cc found within ranged heroes as well

For instance, Lina, Leshrac, Rubick and Invoker have aoe stuns. Heck drow ranger was given an aoe knockback ontop of her 5 second silence. Silencer is a ranged hero who can globally silence everything (what's really cool is it actually mutes the game audio when he ults). Jakiro is a ranged two-headed dragon most noticeable for his huge aoe ice path stun. Enigma is picked entirely for his blackhole which is one of the best aoe stuns/initiates in the game.

And there are melees who lack strong cc such as Anti-mage, Phantom Assassin, Broodmother, Spectre, Riki, Ursa, Bounty Hunter, Omni-knight, Lycan, Juggernaut, Abaddon, Undying, Timbersaw. Who have either slows or no cc. They make up for this in other ways.

What makes melee vs ranged balanced in Dota is a multitude of factors. Blink dagger is a very long ranged flash that 95% of the time, can only be used offensively, which heavily favors melees since ranged units don't care about mobility unless it's to escape a fight. Existance of items such as stout shield , poorman's shield, quelling blade which grant significant bonuses for melees and not-so-significant bonuses for ranged. high ground mechanic where ranged attacks (only ranged, melees are unaffected) have a 25% chance to miss their targets (this is very noticeable when taking down the Barracks Tower since you basically need to be standing inside their base in melee range to destroy their tower) turn speed which has been pointed out to death on these boards. And then there's the base stats of heroes. If you are a melee strength, building strength stat not only builds up your base damage, but you also gain flat health (I think it's 18 max health per strength stat), meaning you get tanky/durable while you build to carry. Agility melees tend to have excellent mobility (anti-mage, phantom assassin and Faceless all have dashes) or they use Illusions as a defensive mechanic (naga siren, Phantom lancer, Terrorblade, and every anti-mage including myself that I've ever seen always builds manta style) and each point of agility is worth around 1% of effective hp in armor(each point of agility is 1/7 of an armor point, and each point of armor is worth 6% effective hp against physical damage, so it's like 6/7 which is about 1% effective hp per agility point)

YCitizenSnipsY1 votes

So you want hard CC on melee champions so that one of their primary weakness of being kited can be less exploited. Its not enough that they can deal good damage while building primarily tank items, you also want them to be able to walk up to anybody and burst them down with no way of fighting back?

WoonStruck5 votes

{quoted}

So you want hard CC on melee champions so that one of their primary weakness of being kited can be less exploited. Its not enough that they can deal good damage while building primarily tank items, you also want them to be able to walk up to anybody and burst them down with no way of fighting back?

If ranged champions didn't have as much cc, melee champs wouldn't have to be as strong to have an impact when they get in.

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