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What can you do against Rammus?

Touch My Box··5 votes·9,124 views

I play ADC often. I get that Rammus is supposed to counter ADCs. I hit him once and lose over half my health, he sits there barely taking 5% of his. This is BEFORE he has taunted, BEFORE he has landed powerball and BEFORE he has used his ult.

You build lifesteal, but lifesteal is calculated after his 350 armor has reduced your damage dealt to 250 (from a 1.5k headshot crit) and you only lifesteal 75 back. You get 500 returned from thornmail alone.

The obvious solution 99% of you will post is "just dont hit him". So what, just let him do his thing? Let him take towers willy-nilly, let him beat you to death?

He should at least have to land one of his skills for him to kill you that fast, because currently he can press defensive curl, go afk to bio, finish wiping his ass and laugh at your dead body.

Lord Dominik's lets you penetrate 100 of his bonus 250, leaving him with 250 armor. (I'm being generous here, he can easily get more than 350.)

In his current state he is just flat out an anti-fun champ. Thornmail is bad enough, but when he reflects an additional 110 there isn't much an ADC can do without losing out on a lot of damage.

EDIT: Veigar recently got his stun nerfed because there wasn't enough counterplay, or room to outplay him. At least Veigar had to use his kit to kill you. If you dodged/baited/he missed his stun, you could kill him. Rammus can't miss his self buff. You fire you gun, he presses W, you die. Simple as that. No room for counterplay whatsoever.

80 Comments

BastionKross7 votes

You mean the champion specifically designed to counter marksmen is countering marksmen? I shall inform the police at once!

Seriously though, Rammus is designed so that if you ever auto attack him, you just lost. You should never be auto-ing him, and your team should never let you be in a position where he's right up in your face. Your tank or your support should be peeling for you, or your mage should burst him down since he's probably stacking armor with very little MR.

If he's getting to you, or forcing you to back off, he's doing his job and someone on your team is not doing theirs. He's one of the very few champions in the game that just absolutely refuses to be bullied around by marksman DPS; and since everyone and their mother is trying out marksmen this preseason, he's in high demand.

Touch My Box1 votes

So while he is taking dragon, taking towers, killing my team, I'm not to touch him at all. Seems like a really well thought out idea.

BastionKross3 votes

Basically yes. Unless you're playing as a caster marksman like Ez or Corki or Varus, then you do not, under any circumstances, try to auto the Rammus. It's like chasing Singed, it's just something that you don't want to do because you're playing right to the strengths of that champ.

If Rammus is running all over taking towers and dragons, it's not your job as the marksman to go stop him. And if a Rammus is killing your entire team, then it sounds like you have a 4 or 5 AD team, and you guys got punished for not having diversity in your damage.

3TWarrior2 votes

(although, at the same time rammus does have the highest defensive steroid of all champs at 120 boost to both magick resist and armor, so even magic damage champs can have a hard time

interesting though, I wonder how mundo does against him because mundo's damage is primarily abilties and being in close combat with massive healing to compensate damage he takes

GundayMonday1 votes

If you build correctly, you can auto attack Rammus. Need some magic resist, lifesteal, and armor pen before that's a good idea though.

Touch My Box1 votes

So you'd get item 3006 ,item 3031 item 3087 and item 3072 for the lifesteal, item 3139 for lifesteal and magic resist and your final item item 3036 . The above example uses these items and shows just how futile it is.

GundayMonday3 votes

New season, new builds. Your bloodthirster doesn't make sense if you have enough crit with the new mastery that heals for 15% of your crit damage. Another problem is that you're building IE first, which is now dumb. Look at the passive. You need other items with crit before you spend gold multiplying your crit damage. IE is probably 5th or 6th item in most builds now.

Math will vary based on the situation of course, but the build you mention isn't optimal in that order, which might be why you're getting wrecked.

EDIT: Check out some pro games where they LOSE as Rammus. What does the ADC build? Go look up the games and see what their build path, runes/masteries, and other teammates were doing. The answers are there: http://www.probuilds.net/champions/Rammus

Touch My Box1 votes

I didn't mean in that specific order, I meant those items. What would you sacrifice for more crit? You apparently need Mres, and need ArmPen, and need lifesteal and you need crit.

The point is it is ridicuously hard to itemize MR on an adc without giving up huge damage.

GundayMonday1 votes

New season new builds. Look at the new crit mastery (Warlord's Bloodlust) at the top of the first tree. Crit is your lifesteal now. http://preseason.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/masteries.html Could always throw a couple item 1055 in too if Rammus got fed off your other lanes and you need cheap lifesteal on top of your crit items. Cheap lifesteal.

Shac Norris4 votes

Good!

Now at least he's useful

Touch My Box3 votes

There's a difference between useful and broken. I think he has crossed the line. I get that his niche is making you kill yourself, but when he can 2-3 shot me without being near me... it's a little bit over the top.

ModWulf Helhammer3 votes

He hasn't had any changes

WookieJesuz4 votes

You silly adc main. Rammus was trash for most of season 5 but i lovingly picked him anyway. Adc are strong enough as is, you dont need to nerf counters.

Now, having said that, here are some tips for playing against a rammus:

  1. Pick non- AA oriented adc that do some magic damage (Corki, KogMoo, Ezreal are all great choices) so he doesnt get to proc thornmail/w much
  2. Build a lot of armor pen, he likes stacking armor so any armor pen you can have is a need
  3. Dont get hit by his Q. Most like you will need to get a support to peel him off, the Q on rammus is critical. If supp cant peel or he flashed, then sorry thats just how it goes.
  4. Q S S Q S S Q S S Q S S Q S S Q S S Q S S BUILD A FREAKING QSS PLEASE FOR THR LOVE OF GOD DONT BE A BRONZE ADC THIS COUNTER RAMMUS SO HARD
  5. Dont attack him, let spells whittle him down while you mind your time in the backline
  6. That is main stuff, step 4 and step 3 are the most important. Kite hi, and you will win.
Touch My Box2 votes
  1. I always build QSS, doesnt do much in the way of "oh look I auto'd him once and lost my health"
  2. Armor pen is near worthless given that both Thornmail and his defense curl aren't affected by his armor. I'm still going to lose half my health. Armor pen means I will Lifesteal that little bit extra back.
  3. Magic damage is more effective than physical against him, but still highly ineffective given he has 200MR nearly all the time, (8.4sec cd on curl @CDR cap, 6 second uptime). He is going to have health obviously, assume 4k health and he is reducing 66% of that.. You're going to need a lot of magic damage.

I get that he is supposed to make you kill yourself, but there needs to be a cap on just how much damage you will be taking.

Rammus isn't the entire problem, its Thornmail. The reason Rammus is the target is because of the ridiculous synergy.

The Poetic Zed1 votes

makes you wonder why he isn't 100% pick/ban if he's so op....oh wait, he's not. rammus is a one trick wonder, like warwick. his kit doesn't allow for flashy plays like some champs. he does the same thing pretty much every time. making it ridiculously easy to stay away from him. oh you have a minion wave? good luck with him getting to you. work on your positioning. stay behind your nice buff support/top/jg. let him hit something other than you.

Touch My Box1 votes

Either you're incredibly illiterate, or a troll.

What does a minion wave have to do with me auto attacking him?

The Poetic Zed1 votes

oh so you're turning to insulting now? DO NOT AUTO ATTACK HIM. also, you fail to see my point. one of his abilities (don't know which one because i don't play him) speeds him up til he hits something or the time runs out. he won't catch and taunt you if you're behind a minion wave. meaning you aren't forced to aa him. you're literally ignoring everyone's valid points, then trying to insult me for pointing out something obvious? okay then.

Touch My Box2 votes

I'm aware of what his spells do but "don't attack the enemy" is not a valid point. You can't just say "Oh Rammus, I see you there taking my tower or soloing dragon, but because I'm not allowed to auto attack you, I'll just let you be on your merry way. Perhaps you would like a spot of tea while you're doing it?"

They nerf Veigar's stun because there was little counterplay in a 1v1 situation with him, but Rammus is rolling around without even needing to touch an enemy champion to kill them.

The Poetic Zed1 votes

rammus taking your tower is using his ult. you get in range and your tower targets him. this is a team game. where is your team. your apc. at no point should you be letting rammus solo drag unless you're team fighting or taking baron, in which case there's no problem with him taking drag because it puts the other team at a disadvantage

Touch My Box2 votes

so becuase we can 5v1 him, there is counterplay. If you are the only person up, what is the solution.. give him your base?

The point I am raising is that there is no room for outplay. You can't dodge a skillshot, you can't do some fancy flash combos. It is as simple as "you hit him, you die. You don't hit him, he continues on his way taking objectives"

3TWarrior2 votes

what happens when he focuses tower then? if he has 300 armor (which will be quite common by even mid game), he has 75 bonus AD + his base AD, then his ultimate does 60 damage minimum per second for 8 seconds to a tower

The Poetic Zed1 votes

if rammus is in your lane and you're an aa based champ, you should number one, ask for assistance, it's a team game. number two, if you have a rammus in your game you should have qss. when he goes for your tower, your tower will target rammus (if is ult is activated it's hitting you, so tower will target), at which point you let the tower do its work while aa'ing if it's safe (say his curl is down), and saving qss for his taunt . believe me, unless your tower is really low, rammus will fall before it does

Touch My Box1 votes

300( really generous here) armor gives him 115AD(base at 18) + 75(passive) for a total of 180. Towers now have 0 armor. His ult does 195/s. If he attacks once a second, thats 375DPS to the tower. Tower has 2000 health. Thats around 5-6 seconds?

WookieJesuz1 votes

Just 2 week ago people were whining about how underpowered thornmail is. God forbid an item synergize with a champion my god. Qss should make it so you dont have to attack him, which you should never ever be doing. (See step 5 to damage him) Armor pen in s6 affects bonus armor (thornmail and w) of ehich rammus has a butt ton. Read my post above, do it in game against rammus and i promise you will do fine. This will be all.

Touch My Box2 votes

"Armor pen in s6 affects bonus armor (thornmail and w) of which rammus has a butt ton."

Armor pen always did affect bonus armor, in fact it affected TOTAL armor. And that wasn't my point, armor pen lets me hit his health pool harder, but it doesn't do anything in way of "I am instantly dead."

The problem isn't killing him quickly, it is killing him before I kill myself.

WookieJesuz3 votes

Look. Nobody agrees with you and you obviously fail to see anybody elses points. Dont aa him much, buy qss, buy lifesteal, and burn him with abilities before going in to the kill, and just peel him off of you.

Your post was titled: what can you do about rammus Well, a bunch of kind souls offered dozens of solutions but you refuse to accept any of them. Either stop taking time out of peoples day to try and help you, or accept that maybe we have some good valid points.

Touch My Box2 votes

It isn't a valid point when QSS doesn't relate (other than the 35MR you get from Scim) Neither is using your spells. ( Piltover at 300AD and 40% ArPen does 280 damage). Rammus will usually have around 4k health. Your "super awesome suggestion" of spell damage on an ADC does 7% of his health. Another moot point with lifesteal, as addressed in the OP " You build lifesteal, but lifesteal is calculated after his 350 armor has reduced your damage dealt to 250 (from a 1.5k headshot crit) and you only lifesteal 75 back. You get 500 returned from thornmail alone." **my fault for miscalculating, it is actually 385 returned. With your 65 MR that reduces the return to 231 (3x the amount you healed @30% lifesteal)

And your final point. Peel him off you. As adressed, he doesn't have to be near me for the above to occur.

Before you tell me to stop wasting time, pull your head out of your ass and look at the numbers.

Truly Prideful3 votes

If he's stacking that much armor then have whatever AP champion is on your team blow him up. If your team is only AD like it happens a lot lately, then that's not really Rammus' fault. He doesn't do anything differently than before, people just aren't picking the things that deal with him easily. If you want to be the one to kill him on your ADC, I suppose you could try working in some MR to go with your lifesteal. Problem is, Rammus is basically designed purely to take a big dump on you.

Touch My Box1 votes

But he is still a Tank. If you AP mid dumps their combo on him (which will barely scathe him because he has 200MR(66% reduction) without building any), it means that they aren't bursting out the enemy carries.

So assuming you live long enough to destroy his 3-4k healthpool after his reduction, you won't have much in the way of spells to take out the remaining four members of his team.

Truly Prideful1 votes

200 MR, then reduce it due to Void Staff and various pen items / masteries. And I'm assuming you're saying 200MR because of ball curl, which won't always be up. You're making Rammus sound way better than he is. Rammus really isn't that bad, he's just good against what is popular now. Good for him.

Touch My Box2 votes

You're right. My apologies. It wont always be up, it will be up for 6 seconds, and down for 2.4. Void staff, Sorc boots, MPen reds and piercing thoughts will reduce it to what, 25+ 42%? Throw in a haunting guise for another 15, and abyssal for the 20 reduction. That puts him down to 64 armor. Still more than double what any ranged champ gets.

PRAISE THE GODS, 2.4 SECONDS TO BURST HIS 4K HEALTHPOOL OUT.

Truly Prideful1 votes

More than enough time if your entire team isn't jacking off watching the AP do it. I'm assuming your team had some CC, maybe a tank of your own, or something of value. Given how you make it sound like he's just walking in and killing you and your entire team it seems more like your team just picked like crap. Rammus has one way in, he's coming straight at you. He is extremely easy to keep away if your team is paying attention at all.

If you're really complaining that he is running you down and killing you in a 1v1 as a Caitlyn, I don't know what to tell you. He is SUPPOSED to do that, he directly counters you. There is a reason he isn't picked every single game, but instead picked into AD heavy comps. He's just not that good when he needs to hybridize his items, he'd rather just stack armor. I hate some champions too, but it doesn't make them overpowered man.

Touch My Box2 votes

Where did I ever say he was reaching me? In fact, if you opened your eyes the whole purpose of this post is that he doesn't need to reach you. If he powerballed into you, and you got hit by taunt then that's your own fucking fault for being out of position. I fully agree you should die in that situation.

However, you shouldn't die in 2-3 seconds without him needing his spells. This whole post is about him NOT getting in range of you.

Droogzy2 votes

You mean a counter is highly effective to what it is countering?

Shocking!

3TWarrior2 votes

please bear in mind that painful tanks are the only ones keeping even worse champs in line

such as: Zed, tryndamere, the unholiness that are ekko and diana (they can build 4k hp and burst you down in about 2 seconds), all of the marksmen running wild but I think it would be funny if rammus damaged graves fore EVERY shotgun pellot he is hit by XD,

please, fill in more because so many champs can become unstoppable mid or late game with little teamwork required and devastating potential with it

Abyssphere2 votes

There are other people on your team. I realise the ADC fantasy is 1v5 pentakilling just by right clicking but your team has other damage dealers, you should probably consider letting them do the job you're not supposed to.

As a mage I can unload my full burst combo on a random bruiser and he'll survive it, then right-click me to death. Because I know engaging on a bruiser will go badly for me, I instead let the people who are equipped to deal with them do the work and focus on people I'm good at killing. If you're playing an ADC who's not able to fight Rammus, don't fight him. Someone else will.

warpenguin5551 votes

a item 3140 removes his taunt

Lost R1 votes

Don't give him the answer. Let him figure it out for himself.

The item has been around for years now, but people refuse to learn.

Touch My Box1 votes

"The item has been around for years now, but people refuse to learn."

And the shithead know it all didn't read the original post, but commented like he's some godsend to save the rest of Silver V.

Lost R1 votes

Here's an idea, then. Maybe you're not supposed to counter Rammus as the ADC? Maybe he's meant to be your bane?

Mind you, this is a team-based game. Your allies are supposed to have your back, and vice versa. If a Rammus thinks to come and eat the ADC, the teammates are supposed to be able to deter him and keep their ally alive. He can't reflect damage that isn't a basic attack and most Rammuses don't focus so much on magic resist. If he's pushing a turret, other players should come help stop him.

This is just one of too many reasons why I insist that someone be some kind of mage. I've been the Rammus that eats an entire team of AD melee assassins and ADCs because they were too selfish and narrow-minded to diversify. I've also experienced the other side, where my team overspecializes and has no answer to any of the dozens of things that can go wrong as a result. I've also seen far too often people who simply refuse to defend or take objectives, and before you know it all the inhibitors are smashed before the twenty minute mark.

And no, I don't think I'm a godsend. I'm just so many tiers past jaded from the same song and dance happening for the past three years and NO ONE ever learning from it that I'd LIKE to be jaded again.

Touch My Box2 votes

He doesn't have to worry about magic resist, because magic damage is usually in the form of burst. When his curl is up. When he gains free resist. 60% iirc. That means he is only taking 40% of the damage. Can you think of any burst mage who can combo 4k BEFORE mitigation? Even if you could, could you find one that could do it with 50% redux, let alone 60%

And for whoever said if he is so OP why isnt he always picked/top wins.. he is.. hes in the top 3 champs by winrate, at 56%.

Lost R1 votes

Rammus doesn't have damage reduction. His curl at max level gives him 120 armor and resist. And no, unless the opponent is extremely well fed or the Rammus (or tanks in general) is just itemizing wrong, you should not be able to nuke him down under normal circumstances. At the very least, giving him a black eye will convince him to back off. Tanks tend to counter burst champions by virtue of being more durable and having the kit to hold down their opponent long enough to outlast them in a forced fight. Their greatest weakness is being outnumbered or outmaneuvered. Where sheer numbers fail, tanks fall the fastest when exposed to artillery fire, AKA mages, who more often than not have the range and crowd control to stop any slow-approaching champions like Rammus from locking them into a fight, as well as the excessive firepower that doesn't proc the reflect (which only procs on basic attacks, both it and Thornmail).

Touch My Box1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lost R,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KHfvH5AV,comment-id=000500000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-20T20:35:09.760+0000)

Rammus doesn't have damage reduction. His curl at max level gives him 120 armor and resist. And no, unless the opponent is extremely well fed or the Rammus (or tanks in general) is just itemizing wrong, you should not be able to nuke him down under normal circumstances. At the very least, giving him a black eye will convince him to back off. Tanks tend to counter burst champions by virtue of being more durable and having the kit to hold down their opponent long enough to outlast them in a forced fight. Their greatest weakness is being outnumbered or outmaneuvered. Where sheer numbers fail, tanks fall the fastest when exposed to artillery fire, AKA mages, who more often than not have the range and crowd control to stop any slow-approaching champions like Rammus from locking them into a fight, as well as the excessive firepower that doesn't proc the reflect (which only procs on basic attacks, both it and Thornmail).

So he has to be stupid enough to sit around while someone whales on him.

Lost R1 votes

When the artillery comes pouring in, he, like anyone else, has to make the call on whether or not to go all in, attempt to lock down the mage and outlast them, or back off and wait for another attempt. If he's trying to take a turret, he's not going to move much, since he has no range and has to hunker down (literally) right next to the turret to do anything substantial. That makes him an easy target to hit. When he's trying to take a turret, the top goal is to keep him off of it. Unless he's ulting, he can't attack it from range, and if he can't attack it, then you're doing your job right. If he decides to brace the turret damage and attack YOU, he doesn't have any real way of snapping to you outside of a flash (and few Rammuses do that as an engage), so you have a lead up to him closing the gap to respond accordingly (fall back, lay down crowd control, take refuge behind a wall of minions, etc).

My point is magic damage is going to hurt him more than anything else you could think to throw at him, and mage damage is going to be much more effective than trying to basic attack him to oblivion. You build accordingly for ADCs not to outlast him, but to minimize the effect he'll have on you long enough for you to survive and get away. Trying to counter what is a direct counter is ridiculous and counter-productive.

Touch My Box1 votes

The examples you mentioned, yasuo and velkoz, zed v veigar, teemo v garen... the second person CAN counterplay and beat the first person because their kit has room for counterplay. If you dodge yasuo cyclone you have a shot. You can't dodge the damage return from Rammus.

Very Hard Engage1 votes

{quoted}

The examples you mentioned, yasuo and velkoz, zed v veigar, teemo v garen... the second person CAN counterplay and beat the first person because their kit has room for counterplay. If you dodge yasuo cyclone you have a shot. You can't dodge the damage return from Rammus.

except any adc who builds bork/bt outheals his reflect + thorns damage. negating everything you just said, you lost with your own build. do you understand counterbuild? or do you just build whatever riot suggests to you?

oh look, you can just kite to win because his basic kit doesn't burst for 1000+ damage. and you heal through it anyway as an adc who built 2 lifesteal items.

Touch My Box1 votes

{quoted}

except any adc who builds bork/bt outheals his reflect + thorns damage. negating everything you just said, you lost with your own build. do you understand counterbuild? or do you just build whatever riot suggests to you?

oh look, you can just kite to win because his basic kit doesn't burst for 1000+ damage. and you heal through it anyway as an adc who built 2 lifesteal items.

I do the math and show you the damage of return, and how much you lifesteal, but clearly youre too stupid to read.

Very Hard Engage1 votes

{quoted}

I do the math and show you the damage of return, and how much you lifesteal, but clearly youre too stupid to read.

at the end of the day, a full 6item rammus, ACTUALLY LOSES, to a full 6 item ADC, build any 6 items you want, ill build any 6 items i want. well see what happens.

oh look, because i went for 2BT's, Bork, LW/cleaver + filler item, i just won, regardless of what you build, because thats how you beat rammus, you chose not to build a certain way, that was your decision. shame it was a poor one.

"i shouldn't have to build a certain way" well guess what, there is in fact a thing such as meta, optimal build path, and necessary damage output, in this case, it just so happens to be a necessary amount of armor shred/sustain. you dont see it, thats why rammus dents your face in.

you're assuming a standard ADC build, against a full armor rammus, thats not counterbuilding, thats straight up being counterpicked and rammus' natural build is a counterbuild against ADC's, if any ADC builds a certain way (itemizes against rammus) , rammus loses.

end of discussion.

The Whamboozler1 votes

Rammus is only strong when Auto-attacking champs are strong.... usually this means adcs. So if you feel Rammus is hideously overpowered... that is because adcs are hideously overpowered now. Rammus counters adcs, so of course he's giving you trouble as an adc player. How about instead of complaining about him, you just take comfort in the fact that you're obscenely strong right now and don't whine that there is still one or two champs in the game that give you a hard time.

Seriously... You sound VERY entitled here. "Why can't I beat the champion that is specifically designed to beat me?". You're insane vs nearly everyone else but Rammus is just TOO MUCH?

Touch My Box1 votes

{quoted}

Rammus is only strong when Auto-attacking champs are strong.... usually this means adcs. So if you feel Rammus is hideously overpowered... that is because adcs are hideously overpowered now. Rammus counters adcs, so of course he's giving you trouble as an adc player. How about instead of complaining about him, you just take comfort in the fact that you're obscenely strong right now and don't whine that there is still one or two champs in the game that give you a hard time.

Seriously... You sound VERY entitled here. "Why can't I beat the champion that is specifically designed to beat me?". You're insane vs nearly everyone else but Rammus is just TOO MUCH?

I've said 3 times now, I think he should generally beat ADC's, but he should at least have to use most of his kit, not just 1/4 spells.

All I am saying is that there should be SOME, ANY room for counterplay.

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