The problem with Ekko isn't his base damages

Akali is SO HOT··78 votes·4,500 views

It's his utility. Giving utility to an Assassin is never a good idea and what makes building tank on him so much better than full offense. Ekko has a slow on his Q and an even bigger slow on his passive that is pretty easy to proc when going full tank because of how easy it is to get in range of targets with his E and it procing on hit effects. Not to mention his big ass AoE stun that also gives him a shield when proced. Don't forget he has his get out of jail free card on his ult that lets him survive longer to cause even more chaos in fights. If you take a look at every other Assassin you will see that the utility they have is basically either a slow or snare which usually has very weak values to go along with it.

Basically, unless you make all of Ekko's abilities have a 0 base damage he will always be better as a tank because of his stupid utility.

99 Comments

67chrome33 votes

It's his utility.

I'd go a step further and say he doesn't have the kit of an assassin, he's more fighter that likes diving on people's faces and locking them down with CC like: Vi XinZhao MonkeyKing


Pretty much everything in Ekko's kit benefits heavily from building tanky just with how it works. . HP shields and self-healing? 100 HP is the equivalent of 200 HP if you have 50% damage reduction.

. Slows and stuns? Great with tanky CDR builds where you can effectively double the defense/offense of your allies by keeping enemies in range longer and preventing them from striking your buddies.

. Diving onto the enemy team with mega-AoE? benefits from being tanky enough to initiate a fight.

. 3rd hit AA bonus? Benefits from being beefy or having a lot of range, and doesn't benefit at all from being mobile melee squish. If you're reliant on speed to survive: you want to move around as much as possible, where chain auto-attacking really slows and telegraphs your movement.


The only part of Ekko's kit that really benefits from a glass-cannon, high-risk, high-reward playstyle is his capacity to jump onto 1 single opponent with Phase Dive. If you're a melee glass-cannon you want to have a lot of speed to survive through re-positioning and dodging incoming fire, as well as really fast and responsive skills that don't lock you in place or lock you out of evading bad situations by having long casting times, slow projectile speeds, or requiring you to be sticking and utalize a string of auto-attacks.


Magic damage and QWER burst also require less offensive itemization than Physical damage auto-attack focus. At level 18 average QWER burst hits ~1000 and requires a massive 450 AP to simply double to 2000, which doesn't really punish dipping into tank stats. Reason why a lot of mages can run items like Zhonya's, RoA, Rylie's, and Abyssal without giving up much. Physical AA's only go up to ~110 every 1 second @18, where itemization offers the potential to octuple that damage with a committed build: and that damage is pretty much non-existance without itemizing for it. Also, armor is generally 35%~50% higher on all champions and monsters due to bases and often itemization: giving magic-damage champions essentially a free Last Whisper (from past seasons) in free penetrations for the entire game. With that and bases, magic burst tends to offer pretty relevant damage throughout an entire game without any items backing it up.


To make matters worse: AP itemization is struggling at the moment and AP assassin itemization is largely non-existant, where tanky DPS fighter itemization is pretty amazing at the moment. Where Ekko's entire kit already pushes him a bit into surviving twice as long to do twice as much damage rather than building damage to deal twice as much damage, current defensive itemization is offering more than double survival and AP itemization is offering less than double damage.

It's bad enough most assassins released into LoL wind up being tanky DPS fighters, but Ekko really isn't even an assassin in the first place. He's more a fighter/tank that has the option to assassinate things like AP Malphite.

Riot plz.

Old Man Teeto9 votes

He's similar to Diana in this regard, their goal isn't to make building Ekko a bit defensive wrong, but to make it so he has to build some offensive items, ala AP Bruiser.

AP Bruiser is one of the hardest things to make balanced in this game because either they build tank, are immortal and kill you with bases, or build glass and one shot everything. Very difficult to find the middle-ground.

ChaddyFantome25 votes

This Why the hell does an assassin have a giant AoE Stun?

WinBoat5 votes

{quoted}

This Why the hell does an assassin have a giant AoE Stun?

Because he's an utility assassin? Because it plays with his theme? There are tons of videos out there and movies where assassins are able to basically almost freeze time, or slow it drastically as they kill, even slow motion captures. It works, and again, it's his theme.

Zed is more of a problem and also has more of a bullshit ultimate where he can literally escape and get away compared to a telegraph Ekko ult which all his skills are telegraphed/

ChaddyFantome19 votes

Lol Ekko player detected.

Zed's problems aren't his kit. His problems is his lack of any hard resources.

Akali is SO HOT28 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Best EV3R NA,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=K2FOqzhs,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-04-09T16:38:06.224+0000)

Because he's an utility assassin?

That's the problem right there. Assassins should have minimal utility.

Akali Fizz Khazix Leblanc MasterYi Rengar Shaco Talon are all good examples of this because they have little CC to go along with their high damage kits. Some have a little more than others but don't even come close to the degree that Ekko has.

Astôlfo4 votes

Except those are pure assassins as they're meant to be. Ekko's not even an assassin at this point.

YumaS2Astral1 votes

{quoted}

Except those are pure assassins as they're meant to be. Ekko's not even an assassin at this point.

Giving utility to an assassin is like giving high burst damage to a support

Wimbledofy5 votes

many supports already do have burst damage though... Sona, blitz, alistar, and leona are burst based or have high damage.

Jet Sett2 votes

They're can be healthy utility assassins, just gotta make them unsafe. There's a god in Smite (Yes I know this is LEAGUE OF LEGENDS but other mobas can have helpful insight too) called Ne Zha. He has good utility and lockdown as an assassin, but has no real escape after going in because he has an ability where he does guaranteed damage to them while being out of the game along with his target, he goes back to the original place where he cast his ult after, but you can just stand there if his team can't pressure/couldn't go in, effectively making a utility assassin with risks and damage that isn't broken. Though the Smite community complains he needs buffs... to allow him to escape....

Handin Out Naps11 votes

Fizz has a knockup, Lb has a snare, Rengar has a snare, Shaco has a fear, Ekko has a stun. You also forgot Zed. But anyway I would argue that Ekko's cc is a lot harder to land than all of these champions except maybe Shaco. The biggest problem right now is how broken Sunfire + IBG into tank is right now. You can legit pull this build on so many champions and be ridiculous. Ekko's utility isn't what makes him hard to deal with in teamfights, his w is honestly pretty easy to avoid. It's how he can use his passive and e to run around team fights while still doing very good amounts of damage because of how overturned a couple tank items are currently.

Voluug133 votes

Minimal utility =/= no utility.

The biggest problem right now is how broken Sunfire + IBG into tank is right now.

Other tanks are not a problem unless you get counterpicked.

Handin Out Naps5 votes

A Stun is hard cc. A snare is hard cc. A knockup is hard cc. A fear is hard cc. Hard cc =/= minimal cc. Minimal cc is soft cc like slows.

And please Sunfire+Ibg is just absolutely busted right now and needs nerfs. You can build it on anything and suddenly start killing everything.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0M19SRCm9g8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvOjne4gEEg (3:30)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZNGRU8ZRlw (4:25)

Here are some pro players opinions on how dumb it is.

XeroKimo3 votes

I'd rather not nerf sunfires, sunfires has been overshadowed for so long and the only buff it got as of the most recent is 50% increase damage on minions, they've already nerfed sunfires as it used to be super strong early game as it was always 40 dps.

Adolf Hit R2 votes

{quoted}

A Stun is hard cc. A snare is hard cc. A knockup is hard cc. A fear is hard cc. Hard cc =/= minimal cc. Minimal cc is soft cc like slows.

And please Sunfire+Ibg is just absolutely busted right now and needs nerfs. You can build it on anything and suddenly start killing everything.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0M19SRCm9g8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvOjne4gEEg (3:30)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZNGRU8ZRlw (4:25)

Here are some pro players opinions on how dumb it is.

The point is that Ekko has a large aoe stun, an aoe slow, and a strong single target slow. The other champions you mentioned have one single-target cc on one ability.

Lady Hammerlock2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Akali is SO HOT,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=K2FOqzhs,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2016-04-09T17:12:16.121+0000)

That's the problem right there. Assassins should have minimal utility.

Akali Fizz Khazix Leblanc MasterYi Rengar Shaco Talon are all good examples of this because they have little CC to go along with their high damage kits. Some have a little more than others but don't even come close to the degree that Ekko has.

atleast LB's Root is semi avoidable

DarkLarvitar2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Akali is SO HOT,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=K2FOqzhs,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2016-04-09T17:12:16.121+0000)

That's the problem right there. Assassins should have minimal utility.

Akali Fizz Khazix Leblanc MasterYi Rengar Shaco Talon are all good examples of this because they have little CC to go along with their high damage kits. Some have a little more than others but don't even come close to the degree that Ekko has.

wait wait wait wait wait wait are you saying akali fizz lb shaco have no utility? your fuckkkeen retarded dude

Akali is SO HOT5 votes

I don't think I ever said they didn't have any utility lol

Raid Boss Morde1 votes

Ahri forgot about her! She has hard CC on a pretty low CD

Adolf Hit R1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Raid Boss Morde,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=K2FOqzhs,comment-id=0000000000010007,timestamp=2016-04-10T21:23:18.809+0000)

Ahri forgot about her! She has hard CC on a pretty low CD

Yeah but ahri's a lot less of an assassin than other assassins. She plays like one midgame but transitions into a mage role lategame becuase she's not as reliable at picking off a single target as someone like Zed or Talon.

Wyrmblade2 votes

All of those champions are a lot less healthy for the game than ekko.

A Miss Fortune13 votes

Utility and assassin are two words that shouldn't go together.

Astôlfo1 votes

I don't know, maybe because it's almost impossible to actually get it off unless the enemies are idiots?

ChaddyFantome3 votes

I don't normally say this but.

OR, you know, you can Git gud at the game? The thing is invisible until the shot is fired. hitting people with it isn't that hard unless you place it directly where they are and go into it expecting your target to stay still for you.

Not saying it is the easiest shit to land, but come on. it isn't hard.

Even in the case where you don't get the stun off, the field being there is a huge amount of zone control innately and it even has a minor slow on it.

Bodkins Odds1 votes

Except that after facing Ekko a few times, you generally know where his W is going to be as soon as you hear him activate it. Ekko is one of the most predictable champs in league.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

If we balanced champs purely off of a players ability to play him like shit, Zed would never have been nerfed.

SoMNia12 votes

...No, the problem with Ekko is that people are continually choosing the wrong times and places to engage him, either fighting in one place until he presses R, or trying to chase him, or something similarly stupid that never ends well. He doesn't have assassin-level damage unless he lands R, because he's a skirmisher, not an actual assassin. He's tagged as an assassin because it's the closest category to his actual playstyle. His CC and a lot of his damage are avoidable.

MasterSomething1 votes

He's an assassin if you go full AP Because nothing's better than a 1400 damage ultimate

Astôlfo6 votes

He's not even an assassin, even if he was supposed to be. He sucks ass at being an assassin. IBG + Sunfire + Deadman's are far too strong at the moment as compared to their cost. And he's just good at abusing those items, as pretty much every other bruiser can. And his damage is trash, but between his utility CCs and proc'ing items, he just lasts long enough to be a nuisance.

Also, you will almost never get off the AoE stun unless you don't know how to move or are already CC'd (aka, he got his full combo off on you.) He was meant to be an assassin, but right now, he's just another generic bruiser fighter. Nothing new.

and loool So let's just forget about all the other CC-heavy tanks that can still do great amounts of damage. But sure.

Zone of Endless6 votes

it is his base damage though. If you have high base damage then you can easily build tanky and do more damage than if you build squishy.

Astôlfo2 votes

Except. His base damages. Are trash.

Zone of Endless1 votes

{quoted}

Except. His base damages. Are trash.

Except it's not. It's decently high and his CD are also really short.

Late game tank ekko at level 18 does 640 from Q, E, and passive and he can do it every 7 seconds with no CDR. His AA also does 5% more damage based on target's missing health when they're below 30% HP. And it's not like it's hard to apply those damages either. You can easily E Q AA and apply that passive damage. Passive also slows your target and give you a massive speed boost.

So his base are high enough as a tank and he can easily apply it multiple times in a short amount of time is what make him so broken.

The Deckowner1 votes

maybe u should countin that at lv18 the target will have resistance/lifesteal which basically makes his base dmg ignorable.

Zone of Endless1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Deckowner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=K2FOqzhs,comment-id=000b000000000000,timestamp=2016-04-11T01:58:01.848+0000)

maybe u should countin that at lv18 the target will have resistance/lifesteal which basically makes his base dmg ignorable.

Maybe you should realize how fast and easy he can apply those damage. Tanks will do the most damage always if they can't be killed fast enough. Ekko has the kit to be just that.

Also tank Ekko will build iceborne gauntlet and dead man to amplify that damage. Let also not forget runes exist in this game.

Lady Hammerlock6 votes

When skarner was released his permaslow wasn't allowed

but item 3025 Ekko is allowed

talk about consistency

ModKnightsKemplar4 votes

Yes, I've been saying this to a friend. He keeps arguing that tank Ekko could be balanced if they just nerf him a little more.

And this is my response, exactly as you said it. He will ALWAYS be better as a tank with this kit. Always.

Mortekaiser3 votes

"ekko's bases are trash xDDD"

http://champion.gg/champion/Ekko/Top

57.47% winrate in plat through challenger

most successful build includes sunfire, frozen fist, abyssal, spirit visage, dead mans plate. this build synergizes well with bruisers with, you guessed it, high base damages.

now, I'd be fine with the bases, but the OP is correct. his utility is far too high for what was supposed to be an assassin.

Akali is SO HOT2 votes

I think it's also partially that Sunfire + IBG is pretty broken atm

PDE5 Inhib3 votes

No, it's his bases. They are the reason that Ekko can build 100% tank and still outdamage the team.

Ekko was supposed to be an assassin that had a shit ton of tools, but low damage to make up for it. Instead, THE STUPID FUCKS GAVE HIM MORE FUCKING BASE DAMAGE THAN VEIGAR. So dumb.

The Deckowner3 votes

ekko's base dmg was gutted right after his release and his win rate dropped to nearly below 40%. then rito realized the nerf was too much so they gave him some minor buffs to bring his winrate back to around 47-49%. he's base dmg is nothing compare to most assasins.

and veigar is supposed to be a hyperscaling champion...not sure why u used him as a comparison.

PDE5 Inhib1 votes

Gutted? Lmfao.

right after his release and his win rate dropped

Oh, so a new release champ had a bad win rate before anyone learned how to play him? Who would have thought.

I used Veigar as a comparison because Veigar ONLY has damage, yet has less base damage than a champ with 16 slows, 2 dashes, a heal, a stun, a shield, a speedboost, and a get outta jail free card. And I'm probably missing something.

The Deckowner2 votes

u dont even understand english. Ekko was literally gutted the first following patch after his release. go check the patch notes, release ekko was the definition of broken champion and he had a extremely high winrate due to how broken he was. after he got gutted in the following patch his winrate dropped a shit tone.

Kiyodai Akamichi2 votes

I think the idea isn't to keep ekko from being able to BUILD tank. They know people are going to keep building him tank. The idea is that they're reducing his damage when he DOES build tank, thus meaning he gives up more to have that additional utility.

ModKnightsKemplar3 votes

But that's exactly the point. He will always be better as a tank than as an assassin. Because he has all that catch and peel. That's a tank kit.

Myrmiron2 votes

Funny how I mentioned the same thing in a different thread and got downvoted for it. Oh well, here is my take on it:

{quoted}

I think his AP scalings are fine. That he works so good top and jungle is honestly only the way his utility and ultimate work. Sure you can make him unattractive by nerfing his base damages, but the way tank itemization works right now he will still be very much viable after that. I think the only way to nerf tank Ekko is by reducing his utility. This would also hit AP Ekko, but skilled Ekko players should be able to work around that. This way you make room to fight him back.

The Loveless3 votes

People see down/up votes and decide to hop on the train. Most probably don't even read what the OP says past the headline.

UADECwolf2 votes

New experiment: My comment will get a ton of dislikes

yukumari2 votes

Being a utility assasin was literally ekko's schtic when he was released. No one complained then. THey're only complaining now that some abstract built path has made him op. I'm not saying he doesn't need work, but weaking the area that he's supposed to be strong in would go against his entire point.

IAMS4T4N2 votes

{quoted}

Being a utility assasin was literally ekko's schtic when he was released. No one complained then. THey're only complaining now that some abstract built path has made him op. I'm not saying he doesn't need work, but weaking the area that he's supposed to be strong in would go against his entire point.

Nobody complained? He was so busted on release, everyone complained. Hell, his ult didn't even cost mana.

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