instead of nerfing champions when they become strong in low mmr

Critmaster Garen·Aug 17, 2018·60 votes·15,533 views

maybe riot should make detailed videos and short strategy guides for every champion to be accessable in client to explain their mechanical and strategic counterplay.

similar to champion spotlights with gameplay segments that teach you how to play a certain champion, maybe there should be similar guides what to do when faced with them on the enemy team.

there could also be a more extensive tutorial that explains beginners basic lane mechanics like damage checks without overcommitting to fights, and how to keep your focus on objectives and close out games when youre given the opportunity.

one of the most common questions you can see on the boards here is, "how is champion x balanced" or "how do i deal with champion x".

there are a number of third party sites that offer player written strategy guides, but little by riots own sources that are easily and obviously accesable for inexperienced people who dont know where to look yet.

91 Comments

DuskDaUmbreonAug 17, 201814 votes

Because, while that seems like a good idea, sometimes the issue is less "This champion is OP here because people don't know how to fight it" and more "This champion is OP here because bronze through gold is less coordinated than a blind and deaf elephant in the middle of an epileptic seizure".

And that's assuming people even watch it.

Critmaster GarenAug 17, 20184 votes

{quoted}

Because, while that seems like a good idea, sometimes the issue is less "This champion is OP here because people don't know how to fight it" and more "This champion is OP here because bronze through gold is less coordinated than a blind and deaf elephant in the middle of an epileptic seizure".

And that's assuming people even watch it.

if people dont watch it, at least you can tell them to read the strategy guide.

ModAcademy KaynAug 17, 20182 votes

How is that any different from telling someone to watch a video, or a read a 3rd party strategy guide? If they don't read the one you placed in the client willingly, and you need someone to tell you to read it, than nothing has changed.

Critmaster GarenAug 17, 20184 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Jz9y6lBX,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2018-08-17T23:22:26.934+0000)

How is that any different from telling someone to watch a video, or a read a 3rd party strategy guide? If they don't read the one you placed in the client willingly, and you need someone to tell you to read it, than nothing has changed.

accessability. new or unexperienced players would know where to start looking. doesnt seem like third party sites are working out so hot in this regard.

if its obvious, where they could get information that would help them, but they still refuse to invest a couple minutes, fuck them.

PB4UAMEAug 18, 20182 votes

if its obvious, where they could get information that would help them, but they still refuse to invest a couple minutes, fuck them.

Amen.

I mean, the same is true for people not using this very site to find all sorts of information before running their hands across their almighty keyboards to post on these boards, but at least putting the information on the client itself gives even less room for excuses.

Bottom LanerAug 18, 20181 votes

And just like the elephant, it's too much for 1 person to carry

Tahminatrix Aug 17, 201810 votes

It could literally be put in along with a death recap update so players will get more / better advice on how to deal with champions they died to while also seeing a better list of damage sources -_-

Critmaster GarenAug 17, 201813 votes

[{quoted}](name=Super Cow Swag,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Jz9y6lBX,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2018-08-17T22:58:49.579+0000)

It could literally be put in along with a death recap update

so maybe season 20

fatherdariusAug 18, 20187 votes

That soon, you think?

WeaselRuneAug 18, 20184 votes

Im really tired of getting Ignited by Raptors.... Really what would be nice is if they would rename "Death recap" to "Death joke."

Squirrel BallsAug 19, 20181 votes

Or taking Stattic Shiv damage from Dragon

Death by GlamourAug 17, 20186 votes

that nerf garen thread earlier really annoyed you didn't it

[slayer-jinx-wink]

Critmaster GarenAug 17, 20185 votes

[{quoted}](name=Death by Glamour,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Jz9y6lBX,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-08-17T21:20:32.398+0000)

that nerf garen thread earlier really annoyed you didn't it

[slayer-jinx-wink]

just trying to find a reasonable solution. nerfing champions around low mmr isnt reasonable. not just in case of garen, but every single champion.

IfnethAug 18, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Jz9y6lBX,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2018-08-17T21:23:43.929+0000)

just trying to find a reasonable solution. nerfing champions around low mmr isnt reasonable. not just in case of garen, but every single champion.

Or we should just make champions balanced across MMRs. A champion shouldn’t require an instructional video to just not be an overbearing menance below Platinum.

And it’s not just the champion themselves. The behaviors of the elo also matter. Imagine a snowballing jungler who, without being fed, could 100-0 any laner if they ever forgot to ward. Useless in Challenger, Master, and Diamond. Occcasionaly lucky in Platinum. Often useful in Gold. 100% Pick/Ban/Win in Silver and Bronze.

Now imagine ten champions like that. There would be nothing else to ban for 50% of the playerbase. Now imagine just ten more—there would be nothing else to play. Even though realistic examples of pub stompers are not as extreme, this example should highlight why instructional videos are not enough. They have to be nerfed or even reworked to balance their performance across skill levels.

óÔÔÔòAug 18, 20181 votes

I agree with the all skill levels part but the OP I completely disagree with, I feel the game should be balanced for the majority of it's player base. Only about 1.5% of players are above diamond with bronze and silver making up about 85% of the player base. The game SHOULD be balanced for lower elo so they have the ability to improve and win. Being in silver/bronze and going up against a garen who currently sits on a 56% win rate is literal cancer because the game has shifted so much to being revolved around the team there is no "playing from behind" anymore. The higher you go each rank the main thing that changes is how people work together as a team more so than not. At this point I don't see the game being about individual skill anymore its just about who can work the best with a team, and what champion can pull that off the best too.

Critmaster GarenAug 18, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Only about 1.5% of players are above diamond with bronze and silver making up about 85% of the player base.

irrelevant. if you think the game should be balanced around low mmr, youre confusing cause and effect.

you dont change the rules of football, or break every pro athletes kneecaps because the majority of the people cant kick a ball in a straight line, just so steve average can play in the same league as these pro players without actually investing any time into training.

for every single game or sport, if people want to compete, you expect them to take time to improve themselves, not change the rules of the game around beginners and bad players.

it doesnt matter if its football, chess, darts, pool or league of legends.

the only thing you can do is give them better tools to train and learn. if thats replays to figure out their own mistakes they made in games, the new stats page that riot added, or strategy guides.

either learn how to play the game, or be content with losing most of your games and being a bonze level player at bronze mmr.

óÔÔÔòAug 18, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Jz9y6lBX,comment-id=00040000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-18T12:40:09.499+0000)

irrelevant.

you dont change the rules of football, or break every pro athletes kneecaps because the majority of the people cant kick a ball in a straight line, just so steve average can play in the same league as these pro players without actually investing any time into training.

for every single sport, if people want to compete, you expect them to take time to improve themselves, not change the rules of the game around beginners and bad players.

it doesnt matter if its football, chess, darts, pool or league of legends.

the only thing you can do is give them better tools to train. if thats replays to figure out their own mistakes, the new stats page that riot added, or strategy guides.

either learn how to play the game, or be content with being a bonze level player.

When the game doesn't allow a single person to be able to carry there is no sense of "improvement" it's all a random chance on if your team has the same will that you do. To win, to play together, or improve.

League isn't a physical sport so I don't really see any relation to what you had said. It's players are of all ages but you don't see someone who wants to play a physical sport and not improve on something. That's what you see practice for and teams for. The simple fact that bronze does not have the mentality to improve, work together, nor to win, but to only go for kills and listen to anyone who gives you advice proves that "learn how to play the game or stay bronze" is pretty much bullshit. Throw 1 player in a equal standing game (since its based off gold income and everyone has an even start) who wants to improve then 2 bot lane who have no clue what they're doing. I can surely win my lane as I do almost every game, but what about when it comes to the point that I have to verse other players my team fed? Then where's my skill going? Nowhere. I consistently get punished for playing well in low elo because people do not want to work together. However on my high elo accounts this is completely opposite, if I get fed my entire team starts to play around me and improves. There's a LOT of people in gold who don't belong there but there's even more in silver/bronze who are hardstuck because of this shitty system riot has in place.

Critmaster GarenAug 18, 20183 votes

{quoted}

When the game doesn't allow a single person to be able to carry there is no sense of "improvement" it's all a random chance on if your team has the same will that you do. To win, to play together, or improve.

League isn't a physical sport so I don't really see any relation to what you had said. It's players are of all ages but you don't see someone who wants to play a physical sport and not improve on something. That's what you see practice for and teams for. The simple fact that bronze does not have the mentality to improve, work together, nor to win, but to only go for kills and listen to anyone who gives you advice proves that "learn how to play the game or stay bronze" is pretty much bullshit. Throw 1 player in a equal standing game (since its based off gold income and everyone has an even start) who wants to improve then 2 bot lane who have no clue what they're doing. I can surely win my lane as I do almost every game, but what about when it comes to the point that I have to verse other players my team fed? Then where's my skill going? Nowhere. I consistently get punished for playing well in low elo because people do not want to work together. However on my high elo accounts this is completely opposite, if I get fed my entire team starts to play around me and improves. There's a LOT of people in gold who don't belong there but there's even more in silver/bronze who are hardstuck because of this shitty system riot has in place.

ok, so there is a thing i need you to understand. and i need you to really listen.

every single average person. if you dont have some form of actual physical or mental disability. everyone. can eventually make it to plat mmr.

this is not an exaggeration. its not something crazy, and its something everyone who has played this game long enough can tell you.

for some people it might take a bit longer (maybe years), others might reach it faster. but the main difference between the average person in bronze, and the average person at plat mmr is practise and game knowledge. thats it. in most cases the only factor that decides how fast this process takes is your own attitude.

you dont need to be gifted with superhuman reflexes or intelligence to make it there. any average person can do it.

at the same time, if you placed any player with plat mmr in bronze. he would 100% be able to carry himself back out and back up to his own mmr on his own.

this is a fact. this has been proven more than enough. seriously, these "bronze to gold/plat/diamond" series have been done to death. if you get better at the game, you will improve how fast you climb and you will climb out, and you will repeatedly be able to make it back out on your own, by solo carrying if just placed back there on a new account.

so when riot balances the game for plat and upwards, theyre balancing the game for the average person at a point, where they have mostly understood it. there is no point in trying to balance the game around people who didnt even understand the basics yet, who are new, still learning or who simply dont want to put in the slightest efford to improve themselves.

nothing else in life works like that. not just in games in general.

if you want to get better at math and get good grades, you have to study math. the entire abstract complex is not just changed because youre unwilling to pick up a book.

if you want to get better at sports, you have to train. the rules of entire games dont just change because youre having sideburns on your first day.

and if you want to get better at league of legends, you have to actively improve your own play. not just expect riot to nerf mechanics around you that you havent fully grasped yet or are a bit more difficult to learn than others.

óÔÔÔòAug 18, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Jz9y6lBX,comment-id=0004000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-18T13:51:24.278+0000)

ok, so there is a thing i need you to understand. and i need you to really listen.

every single average person. if you dont have some form of actual physical or mental disability. everyone. can eventually make it to plat mmr.

this is not an exaggeration. its not something crazy, and its something everyone who has played this game long enough can tell you.

for some people it might take a bit longer (maybe years), others might reach it faster. but the main difference between the average person in bronze, and the average person at plat mmr is practise and game knowledge. thats it. in most cases the only factor that decides how fast this process takes is your own attitude.

you dont need to be gifted with superhuman reflexes or intelligence to make it there. any average person can do it.

at the same time, if you placed any player with plat mmr in bronze. he would 100% be able to carry himself back out and back up to his own mmr on his own.

this is a fact. this has been proven more than enough. seriously, these "bronze to gold/plat/diamond" series have been done to death. if you get better at the game, you will improve how fast you climb and you will climb out, and you will repeatedly be able to make it back out on your own, by solo carrying if just placed back there on a new account.

so when riot balances the game for plat and upwards, theyre balancing the game for the average person at a point, where they have mostly understood it. there is no point in trying to balance the game around people who didnt even understand the basics yet, who are new, still learning or who simply dont want to put in the slightest efford to improve themselves.

nothing else in life works like that. not just in games in general.

Love how your rant mentioned nothing about how the game is fully team oriented and being good in bronze cant carry the game. Also if youre saying plat is where the basis starts youre talking about 6% of players "knowing" the game. Plat+ is the top 6%. The only time I see any plat carrying is if they're playing a meta champion who demolishes lane or just constant ganks. You still moved off from the fact that you HAVE to play meta or HAVE to play specific champions to carry. You can't balance a game for a community who doesn't understand it fully. As I said I have multiple accounts in multiple elo's so I do understand what I'm talking about. There is no 100% when its a game that revolves around team fighting and who has the most damage/cc. The game is about the champion you pick not about the time or effort you put into learning it. My orianna average is above most challenger players who play her, yet you can't carry with her if your team doesn't group or listen. If a game is balanced the champion you pick shouldn't matter on winning or losing, it has to do with how you play that champion. I consistently see the same top 15 champion picks in most of my games and it's beyond boring at this point.

Critmaster GarenAug 18, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Love how your rant mentioned nothing about how the game is fully team oriented and being good in bronze cant carry the game.

have you ever made it out of bronze? because you wouldnt say this if you did make it at least past silver.

you cant control your teammates, that is correct. you can only control your own actions.

but is has been proven more than enough, that with sufficient game knowledge and practise, you will always be able to carry yourself out of lower divisions.

you have 4 people on your team who might suck at the game, but the enemy team has 5.

and up until plat you dont have to play meta champions to be able to get there. people have 1 tricked garen and other champions into and out of plat that were considered trash tier, in any meta.

the differences in indiviual champion stregth is actually small enough compared to the mistakes that players make, that it doesnt become relevant until around mid diamond mmr.

óÔÔÔòAug 18, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Jz9y6lBX,comment-id=000400000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-18T14:14:34.897+0000)

have you ever made it out of bronze? because you wouldnt say this if you did make it at least past silver. (How wouldn't I had made it out of bronze if the account I'm posting on currently is silver?)

you cant control your teammates, that is correct. you can only control your own actions. (So then how can 1 person defend against a group of 3 or more if your team refuses to listen to pings or chats and still do their on thing? I'll wait.)

but is has been proven more than enough, that with sufficient game knowledge and practise, you will always be able to carry yourself out of lower divisions. (with low skill cap boring ass champions that make the game no fun)

you have 4 people on your team who might suck at the game, but the enemy team has 5.(complete bullshit the enemy never has 5 people that suck, that's completey biased off the champion you choose to play. Taking wukong mid has a extremely high win rate in bronze and pressing R makes the enemy disapper, most of the time theyre clueless. But why THE FUCK DO I WANT TO WUKONG MID MY WAY OUT OF BRONZE. I want to be able to play the champion of MY choosing to get out of it on this account. Yes, Woah, not 15 champions, not 25, any of the 140+ champions league has to offer. But it doesn't work like that.)

and up until plat you dont have to play meta champions to be able to get there. people have 1 tricked garen and other champions into and out of plat that were considered trash tier, in any meta. (You legit said spin to win and listed no one who takes any skill or has any learning curve to the champion??? You're literally agreeing with me how the champion pool is skewed to a few set champions to carry out of bronze. Where's the examples of people getting out of bronze with orianna, azir, nidalee? That's right there isn't one.

the differences in indiviual champion stregth is actually small enough compared to the mistakes that players make, that it doesnt become relevant until around mid diamond mmr. (Early ganks completely counter your argument? You can't do anything 1v2 1v3 1v4 or 1v5, you will get focused, cc'd, and blown up in a second. To have 3 idiots on your team and you always be alone with a support who knows when someones carrying because that's their job, feed the carry regardless of mid or adc. This takes the situation into a 2v3 2v4 2v5, because sure killing 2 people then getting engaged on is fun!!!. Youre missing the point that 1 person can not carry without a team to support him, protect him, and help him carry. )

I know youre gonna say something like "yeah simple champions are the best way to get out of bronze or silver" so ill counter with what's the point of playing champions with a high learning curve if its useless unless a team is there.

D O N K 0 6 6 6 Aug 19, 20181 votes

I watched a diamond illoai today win a bronze match just by pushing top lane into the enemies base. It wasn't even hard. No one even tried to stop her. You can win on your own believe me.

And on a side note, these are the people you want to balance the game around? Honestly? These players who don't care enough about the game to learn you have to stop the enemy from killing your base? Like for real? Because that is a very common behavior in low elo.

óÔÔÔòAug 19, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I watched a diamond illoai today win a bronze match just by pushing top lane into the enemies base. It wasn't even hard. No one even tried to stop her. You can win on your own believe me.

And on a side note, these are the people you want to balance the game around? Honestly? These players who don't care enough about the game to learn you have to stop the enemy from killing your base? Like for real? Because that is a very common behavior in low elo.

I never stated I couldn't carry with a low brain champion in low elo.. That's the only way TO carry in low elo. Amumu Chogath Garen Illaoi MonkeyKing Yorick . Ill ask again though, where's the carrying myself out of bronze with champions that have a learning curve? Azir AurelionSol Cassiopeia Katarina Orianna ? The argument I'm even trying to make is that low brain champions stomp high learning curve ones without a team.

The Spicy CritAug 18, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Love how your rant mentioned nothing about how the game is fully team oriented and being good in bronze cant carry the game. Also if youre saying plat is where the basis starts youre talking about 6% of players "knowing" the game. Plat+ is the top 6%. The only time I see any plat carrying is if they're playing a meta champion who demolishes lane or just constant ganks. You still moved off from the fact that you HAVE to play meta or HAVE to play specific champions to carry. You can't balance a game for a community who doesn't understand it fully. As I said I have multiple accounts in multiple elo's so I do understand what I'm talking about. There is no 100% when its a game that revolves around team fighting and who has the most damage/cc. The game is about the champion you pick not about the time or effort you put into learning it. My orianna average is above most challenger players who play her, yet you can't carry with her if your team doesn't group or listen. If a game is balanced the champion you pick shouldn't matter on winning or losing, it has to do with how you play that champion. I consistently see the same top 15 champion picks in most of my games and it's beyond boring at this point.

Mate, u've got a negative winrate in Silver 4. I made it out of silver in 2 days ONLY with Tryndamere literally a day ago on my new acc. Give it a break, learn the game.

óÔÔÔòAug 18, 20181 votes

You played a single op champion with an mechanic that has no counter and call that improving your mechanics? I couldn't care less about what simple champion carried you to whatever rank I only play high skill cap champions. Like I said before I have 3 different accounts and I haven't played much on this account because it has the curse of not owning many champions that I play by level 30. You can't really enjoy playing the game when you have to carry with the easiest champions in the game, its boring. The fact people feel any accomplishment for playing a single OP champion to a certain rank makes me laugh because it shows later when they can't play anyone else but their OP champ. Orianna has had the same win rate for a good while now and is considered to be the most balanced of the mages in league. I don't play much on this account

The Spicy CritAug 18, 20181 votes

{quoted}

You played a single op champion with an mechanic that has no counter and call that improving your mechanics? I couldn't care less about what simple champion carried you to whatever rank I only play high skill cap champions. Like I said before I have 3 different accounts and I haven't played much on this account because it has the curse of not owning many champions that I play by level 30. You can't really enjoy playing the game when you have to carry with the easiest champions in the game, its boring. The fact people feel any accomplishment for playing a single OP champion to a certain rank makes me laugh because it shows later when they can't play anyone else but their OP champ. Orianna has had the same win rate for a good while now and is considered to be the most balanced of the mages in league. I don't play much on this account

HHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA

TRYNDAMERE OP CHAMPION NO COUNTERPLAY HAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAH

That's why you're not higher mate. Next time you play against Tryndamere buy Tabi+Any other armor item and see how useful Tryndamere will be. Also, use a 1% slow when he ults and run away from him like hes a monkey. Tryndamere is everything but op, imho

I'll talk to you when you reach something higher than silver. Bye

óÔÔÔòAug 18, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Spicy Crit,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Jz9y6lBX,comment-id=00040000000000000000000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2018-08-18T23:14:36.956+0000)

HHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA

TRYNDAMERE OP CHAMPION NO COUNTERPLAY HAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAH

That's why you're not higher mate. Next time you play against Tryndamere buy Tabi+Any other armor item and see how useful Tryndamere will be. Also, use a 1% slow when he ults and run away from him like hes a monkey. Tryndamere is everything but op, imho

I'll talk to you when you reach something higher than silver. Bye

You play EUNE. Not NA. Try ap trynd or just one who doesnt leave lane regardless of deaths hes a tower monster and has an escape that gives him 6 seconds where he cant die. That's like saying yasuo's windwall is a fair skill for a champion to have (has a 20 sec cd where as most ults have 120+ and it blocks everything) yet hes at a 71% ban rate atm.

D O N K 0 6 6 6 Aug 18, 20181 votes

Soooo you pick ori first time ever and instantly know when to trade, when to roam, and where to be in a fight, all without having to learn?

óÔÔÔòAug 18, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Soooo you pick ori first time ever and instantly know when to trade, when to roam, and where to be in a fight, all without having to learn?

I said 3 times now this is just the acc my forums were singed into currently, autofill for the last account I created.

D O N K 0 6 6 6 Aug 18, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Jz9y6lBX,comment-id=00040000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-18T12:40:09.499+0000)

irrelevant. if you think the game should be balanced around low mmr, youre confusing cause and effect.

you dont change the rules of football, or break every pro athletes kneecaps because the majority of the people cant kick a ball in a straight line, just so steve average can play in the same league as these pro players without actually investing any time into training.

for every single game or sport, if people want to compete, you expect them to take time to improve themselves, not change the rules of the game around beginners and bad players.

it doesnt matter if its football, chess, darts, pool or league of legends.

the only thing you can do is give them better tools to train and learn. if thats replays to figure out their own mistakes they made in games, the new stats page that riot added, or strategy guides.

either learn how to play the game, or be content with losing most of your games and being a bonze level player at bronze mmr.

As a bronze elo I agree with this. When I play with my high elo friends, I do fine. They know what they're doing and I can trust them, they only ping me back when they think they need to, they show me a few tricks even. But in my elo it doesn't matter, I'm still trying to learn the game and where I'm supposed to be, what I need to be doing and why. The stats page is great, I learned what areas I'm really shitty in. Replays are awesome, I can see what I'm doing wrong for myself.

I would jizz all over in depth laning guides. I saw the words "check for damage without committing to a fight" as I scrolled down and instantly looked it up because it made me realize how black and white I've been seeing my trades. It made me think "there's probably more to this than I thought". No laning guide on youtube that I've seen has gone deeper than "don't miss cs and trade effectively". It'd be really nice to be able to see guides from the devs themselves in-client on the more detailed aspects of the game (specifically and in my case, what to do after and when laning phase is over), as well on tips for how to make sure you're making a good decision, so I don't have to look online for third party sites that have stats and guides. It's there, but it could also be all in one place with a big ass neon sign on it that says "COME HERE TO IMPROVE" so you have no choice but to see it, AND it could be quickly and easily updated with each patch.

If there are others in my elo reading this, hear my plea! Please try to make an effort with me. Don't give up when you or someone else feeds a kill or two, the enemies aren't challenger and hope is not lost. If you're on 5 deaths before 10 mins, don't worry about it. Everyone has bad games. Suck it up, play around your team's tank or whoever is fed or something, anything but complain, please. And likewise when you're fed it doesn't mean you're the shit and you can do whatever you want. Use your lead to help us win. Focus on tormenting the enemies, take their towers, take their lives, just don't afk farm and don't die. Listen to the players who know what they're doing. They make themselves obvious because they destroy our enemies for us without much help, and are probably out farming everyone else in the game pretty consistently throughout.

To conclude, IT ISN'T THE CHAMPS GUYS IT'S OUR SHITTY PLAYS. Thank you for your time. floats into the ceiling

Death by GlamourAug 18, 20181 votes

so just out of interest

garen has an extremely high wr (58%) according to lolalytics

Hes not that complicated to fight against, He strikes you with his Q and proceeds to spin to win, if he gets low HP he hangs back and lets his passive regen kick in.

going by this thread im guessing that you agree that he should be nerfed based on his high WR in high MMR

Critmaster GarenAug 18, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Death by Glamour,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Jz9y6lBX,comment-id=000400000001,timestamp=2018-08-18T15:02:53.152+0000)

so just out of interest

garen has an extremely high wr (58%) according to lolalytics

that 58% was the highest winrate a master/challenger tier player had with garen last patch. at least thats the only explanation i have where you could get the 58%.

like a single individual player. this is not garens average winrate. it really doesnt mean much.

garens average winrate at plat+ games is currently between 49% in korea and 51% across all regions. so clearly inside the norm.

Death by GlamourAug 18, 20181 votes

So we shouldn't balance around low mmr because of a lack of skill or understanding of the game as a whole and we shouldn't balance around high mmr because of the small amount of games. Where do we set the balance then?

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Garen/

correct me if im wrong here but he has infact a 53%+ winrate in plat plus, a 10% playrate in plat+ and only 2 champions (kayle and teemo) statistically counter him in lane.

True GarenAug 18, 20184 votes

[{quoted}](name=Death by Glamour,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Jz9y6lBX,comment-id=00040000000100000000,timestamp=2018-08-18T17:18:38.542+0000)

So we shouldn't balance around low mmr because of a lack of skill or understanding of the game as a whole and we shouldn't balance around high mmr because of the small amount of games. Where do we set the balance then?

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Garen/

correct me if im wrong here but he has infact a 53%+ winrate in plat plus, a 10% playrate in plat+ and only 2 champions (kayle and teemo) statistically counter him in lane.

That same page also says "Taking into account win rate and summoner rank Garen is ranked 82 amongst all champions in the hands of an expert." Garen is weaker than most of the champions in the game.

ModCaptainMårvelousAug 18, 20184 votes

Because players don't actually want to admit fault that they're the ones causing these issues.

They want to be told their right and that Riot is the one at fault. It's been that way since Season 1. Issue is that back in the day Riot said "lol just learn bro" and now they go "We hear you, we're so sorry about <champ> let's nerf him to shit for yall"

AxzariousAug 19, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Because players don't actually want to admit fault that they're the ones causing these issues.

They want to be told their right and that Riot is the one at fault. It's been that way since Season 1. Issue is that back in the day Riot said "lol just learn bro" and now they go "We hear you, we're so sorry about <champ> let's nerf him to shit for yall"

It also doesn't help that Solo Queue and play with organized teams are two completely different beasts as well. I shudder to think what kind of havoc certain champions would inflict upon SoloQ if everything was balanced around the LCS.

True GarenAug 18, 20184 votes

The tutorial and training modes are relatively new. It is my understanding that there was resistance to introducing training options. On the one hand, Riot, on the most basic level, wants players to "break their teeth" learning the hard way, playing more games. On the other hand, players who had painfully learned how to play over years, resented that new players could fast-track with training options. Ultimately, Riot decided that if you can train for a sport, then you should be able to train for League of Legends; the feeling was that training options would validate the game's perception as a sport. Even so, the training options provided are very basic. The tutorial still has Ashe rush Thornmail. We have a limited number of bots and even the lowest percentage of Bronze 5 players has little difficulty carrying a game of Intermediate Co-op.

A certain amount of anger, rudeness, and rage in games is directed at truly new players. This is why norms also use an MMR system, and why they had to have some extremely basic training modes. Otherwise, things might get out of hand. But it might be counterproductive for Riot, to provide anything more than what they already give.

This game is a multi-billion dollar enterprise, that has been around for 10 years. Every two weeks they release patches with comments that would make you think that they had no clue about what they were doing until now. I don't know any other kind of software that works like this. Riot doesn't really want to help you learn how to beat their game faster.

I don't think that they are going to implement anything like your proposal, anytime soon.

KhristophorosAug 17, 20182 votes

I guess I'm going off topic a little but I know you partly posted this becuase of Garen so I feel like saying this:

I don't understand how people have problems with Garen. I play him in normals often and I'm sitting around like high gold/plat MMR or so. People in this MMR know how to play against him and it makes it frustrating for me when I pick him. Like I think he's fun but it's really hard to be effective with him against people with half a brain. Gold and plat players aren't even that good. They're casual as fuck and Garen doesn't give them problems.

Critmaster GarenAug 17, 201810 votes

{quoted}

I guess I'm going off topic a little but I know you partly posted this becuase of Garen so I feel like saying this:

I don't understand how people have problems with Garen. I play him in normals often and I'm sitting around like high gold/plat MMR or so. People in this MMR know how to play against him and it makes it frustrating for me when I pick him. Like I think he's fun but it's really hard to be effective with him against people with half a brain. Gold and plat players aren't even that good. They're casual as fuck and Garen doesn't give them problems.

well, garen already dropped a couple % in winrate. hes close to 50% now. nerfing him at this point wouldnt make sense anymore, and i dont think theyre going to.

but this generally needs to stop. we cant balance the game by nerfing champions around players who havent even fully understood the basics.

otherwise there will be champions that never get into a position where they can at least somewhat compete in solo que.

the better approach here would be to give inexperienced players access to more information about these matchups and what they need to learn to be able to deal with them.

DerPunktAug 18, 20181 votes

Why though? 50% of the playerbase sit somwhere downwards from mid silver. 50% is a lot. these people watch streams, buy skins etc. Do you really wanna suggest riot should exclude 50% of their customers cause some people stroking their eggos telling others that they sit at plat and "tbh thats not even to be considered high elo... bla bla... drool drool"

So who should we balance the game around? 0,0001% pro games? Cause Yasuo gets no play time there since pros are so very well coordinated. But still he gets banned even in very high solo Q ranks.

Or maybe the massive 2% diamond players? Where Sona sits on 54% Winrate, but at the sametime is no problem in the proscene or on lower elos.... Soo who should we balance around? Teaching the game will not change it, there will always be a skill distribution with the bulk on the rather bad players. Differentiating will not make you problem disaapear, it will jsut make homogeneous masses appear more heterogeneous.

MakimokeAug 17, 20183 votes

I'm trying to learn how to top with Garen. Using mainly Trinity/Sterak, people think you're just a tank, ignoring the sheen procs and some other things like ignite and your Ult.

Then they position badly, take a few Q hits with Grasp and then there's just a Damocles' sword waiting above their heads. Let's not even talk about all-ins.

But Garen has a extremely hard time against a few champs from what I could gather. Urgot wrecks the shit out of Garen. Same with GP, if they play as safely as they can. Vayne, Fiora, Quinn, while I never had the experience fighting them would be hell to play against. Malphite, while not as powerful in the laning phase, just overpowers Garen even with a Black Cleaver + E armor shred.

AhrisAug 17, 20182 votes

The thing is most people dont want to learn how to play against it.

Ahri was nerfed because of low elo, she will most likely get nerfed again for it.

PB4UAMEAug 18, 20188 votes

She's statistically massively more powerful than most other champions across all Elos, but yes, clearly it was purely those damn low Elo scrubs, right? Certainly, a blatantly biased main who's name is literally Ahris is here to set the record straight and spit nothing but ~~utterfuckingbullshit~~ the clear, honest truth.

ReformedfindlayAug 19, 20182 votes

If garen actually gets nerfed because of low elo it would be a fucking tragedy.

He cant even reliably bully nasus past diamond 5 lol

Chembaron YamadaAug 18, 20181 votes

This would just be a solution if the big majority of people would actually commit to put the time and effort into it to learn how to counter a specific champion.

Which I don't really see happening, so most likely these champions will still stomp in low elo and you wasted alot of resources without solving anything and they still have to nerf these champions to balance them for the low elo.

I get it, you don't want your champion Garen getting nerfed because people have a hard time kiting him in low elo. But this game gets balanced for every mmr, not just high elo and if he is standing out in this segment, they should adjust him.

Critmaster GarenAug 18, 20184 votes

{quoted}

This would just be a solution if the big majority of people would actually commit to put the time and effort into it to learn how to counter a specific champion.

Which I don't really see happening, so most likely these champions will still stomp in low elo and you wasted alot of resources without solving anything and they still have to nerf these champions to balance them for the low elo.

I get it, you don't want your champion Garen getting nerfed because people have a hard time kiting him in low elo. But this game gets balanced for every mmr, not just high elo and if he is standing out in this segment, they should adjust him.

low elo cant be balanced. its impossible.

there are always champions with different skill floors in this game. so people who just start out playing the game, or are simply bad at it will always perform better on these champions with a lower skill floor, than those with a higher learning curve.

Azir Ryze and similar champions will always be trash in low mmr, simply because they are harder to pick up than other champions. Amumu will always be a god in low elo, simply because he has a simple to understand kit with high teamfight impact.

a bronze player on ryze or azir will usually lose to a bronze player on amumu, because hes busier trying not to make mechanical mistakes with his champion than the amumu player who has more focus available to concentrate on the strategic aspects of the game.

this is simply the nature of the learning process. unless you rework every single mechanical simple champion to be as complex as azir, or you bring every single mechanical champion down in complexity to the level of amumu, this will never change.

hence, why the attempt itself to balance around low mmr is entirely pointless. all you can do is try to make the learning process easier on these people.

with enough patience and practise, the azir player will eventually get better at the champion, the basic game mechanics and climb up the ladder.

balancing around low mmr is entirely backwards. its not the game that needs to change around low mmr, its the player that needs to change to climb out of it.

óÔÔÔòAug 18, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Jz9y6lBX,comment-id=00100000,timestamp=2018-08-18T12:36:31.678+0000) hence, why the attempt itself to balance around low mmr is entirely pointless. all you can do is try to make the learning process easier on these people.

with enough patience and practise, the azir player will eventually get better at the champion, the basic game mechanics and climb up the ladder.

balancing around low mmr is entirely backwards. its not the game that needs to change around low mmr, its the player that needs to change to climb out of it.

I can fully state no matter how godlike you are on azir in low elo you will NOT carry yourself out of it. At rank one his Q has a 16 second cooldown. They gutted his range so he can't bully in lane anymore. They nerfed his damage into oblivion now his soldiers hit like pillows even at full build he feels EXTREMELY clunky due to cooldowns. Azir simply can't do anything to anyone anymore

Critmaster GarenAug 18, 20182 votes

{quoted}

I can fully state no matter how godlike you are on azir in low elo you will NOT carry yourself out of it.

if you really think that, then the only thing in your way is your own attitude.

because, yes. if youre a great azir player and a decent enough league of legends player you will be able to carry yourself out of low mmr by 1 tricking him.

i have seen people carry games with champions at plat mmr that you wouldnt believe.

i have seen fucking jungle bards carry games. the meta means nothing until d3+ and masters.