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Feeding While Learning Mechanically Difficult Champions - Worth It, Fair To Other Players?

ArnoldSchwarzens··20 votes·5,598 views

One of my main enjoyments in League is to not actually play the game but theorycraft about it, sitting there with a calculator and figuring the best build or tactic and then testing it in-game.

Then I had the idea of building a Duskblade AD Caster build without crit on Gangplank, now that Triforce got nerfed on him. So basically Ionians-Triforce-Youmuu's-Duskblade-BT and a defensive item. When looking at the damage dealt your barrels would deal much more damage in the midgame and only a little less lategame, for that you'd sacrifize the absolute late-game powerspike that a regular crit build grants you ( Some of you can still test and report on it if you want, would love to see some opinions on that ).

Then it occured to me, like many times before, that I wouldn't be able to test it properly because I straight out suck at GP. Because I mostly play mechanically easy champions and haven't played anything but Jungle and Top for months because of the release of DynamicQ, I'm only really able to test builds not restricted by those borders, which I personally find to be really frustrating, because I'd get really hyped up for something that I just made out in my head just to realize that it won't happen anyway.

This time though, out of sheer defiance, I told myself that GP can't be that hard and went into a game. Unsurprisingly, I got my ass handed to me. While gloriously feeding my ass off, I cynically wrote something along the lines of "Learning GP is gonna be fun, yay." after giving First Blood and "I guess I'm going back to Mundo then." after getting inhib-dived in all-chat. My teammates who were doing decently and watching me basically throw their game amazingly didn't flame me up to this point and didn't start to after I wrote that. The enemy MF then, surprisingly to me, told me that she admired me for it and bantered a bit about his pre on another difficult champion, Yasuo I think. After asking in general if learning difficult champions is worth it, most people, ally and enemy, politely told me that I'm probably better off staying with noobchamps.

With that in mind I followed their advice and kind of settled with it, also because I felt kinda bad for them. I also know how it is to have a feeder on your team that ruins the whole game for you, even though you initially intended to have a good game after a stressful day. And ruining that for loads of people while getting yourself frustrated at learning new roles and difficult champions is not worth it, and also really not fair to the point of selfishness.

Lately though I stumbled over this video and kind of reconsidered it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZR3eDzXniw

While I really like stonewall I have to argument against it a bit. His example of the lessons he gave himself didn't affect any other person negatively while League Games definitely do, and is also less frustrating. Still got me divided though.

So I thought to myself, let's ask the people on the boards, because they definitely seem like reasonable and objective human beings.

53 Comments

EndlessSorcerer17 votes

So long as the player isn't trying to intentionally throw the game or feeding too badly, I don't really care too much about their performance in normal games. Even if you fall behind, if the player is trying to avoid dying while still farming and/or being useful, that's perfectly fine even if they fail.

You have to learn to play a champion somehow and you are generally going to be pretty bad at them when you start. Sometimes, you have to figure out that a champion doesn't suit your preferred playstyle by failing with them.

Heck, this weekend I decided that I wanted to grab an AD jungler (since I already had enough CC tanks and wanted a bit more flexibility) and tried Rengar for a couple games. I learned that I couldn't properly use his ultimate to assassinate targets for the life of me and I would keep screwing up my enhanced abilities (though I did decently with my ganks/counter-ganks early-game).

Though, ranked games are an entirely separate matter.

Spoofghoul2 votes

yes i feel pretty much the same about learning new champions

the one thing i do mind is when people lack basic game knowledge while doing it. I mean even if you suck at the champ you dont go about not warding not pinging running into 5 enemies thinking you are going to solo them

there are certain nono's just the usual obvious dumb stuff

everyone has to start learning a champion sometimes but that isnt a reason to hardfeed or be completely useless even if you suck really badly and dont know what to do, you can always grab a sightstone and avoid dying like the plague right?

Cyndercat1 votes

Sometimes when im playing a difficult champion for the first or second time I forget simple basic things like map awareness because I am too focused on trying to pull off their mechanics correctly and not fuck up their combos ect.

I dont do it intentionally but I do often die like the plague when playing new champs. I dont try and 1v5 though.

And I do take them into bot games first and can always go 30/0 but its a totally different scenario in a real game. I guess I just have a problem with tunnel vision on champs im unfamiliar with.

Caítlyn12 votes

How else are you supposed to learn how to play champions, other then...playing them? Dont give up before youve even started. People that like flaming are going to flame you regardless of what champ youre playing. Nice people wont.

And hey guess what. Other people will also be learning at the same time. If you want to learn go for it and dont feel bad. Dont do it in ranked though.

bleufromage1 votes

You play in custom games. You dony have to play in a competitve environment when learning the basics of a champ.your just ruining others good time

RisenDarkKnight2 votes

You can't learn how to actually be decent with a champion in custom games. Every noob can go 50/0 with Azir against bots, but most will feed against real players. As most everyone in this thread has said, you should'nt try them in ranked, but you definitely have to practice in normal games. Bot games/customs aren't good enough practice.

Spinothalamic2 votes

{quoted}

How else are you supposed to learn how to play champions, other then...playing them? Dont give up before youve even started. People that like flaming are going to flame you regardless of what champ youre playing. Nice people wont.

And hey guess what. Other people will also be learning at the same time. If you want to learn go for it and dont feel bad. Dont do it in ranked though.

I think bot games are a great place to learn. I recently picked up draven to add to my adc pool, and I made a rule that I would play ten bot games before playing a normal game. In doing so, I decided that a good time to start normals is when you can consistently be getting really high KDA's in bot games, like leading your team. Then you can very cautiously start normals, making sure not to feed and farm under tower if necessary. Once you can carry normal games on a champ, only then should you play the champ in ranked imo.

Death by Kayn5 votes

See when I am learning a new champ I farm a couple of customs, then head into norms and mute everyone

Fox Byte4 votes

I personally when learning a new champion always start out in a custom game to get a feel for how they play. Unless it's super similar to how one of my main champs play. Then I'll start in a bot game. I know it doesn't really give you a true test and in your case where you want to test a build it might not always work but for learning a champ I find it's the best place to start. Once I am satisfied that I have the basic mechanics under control then I'll take them into a normal game. Or in some cases if it's the weekend just spam the rotating game mode. For example I deeply wanted to learn Taliyah, so I started in custom games. Then moved to normals and just yesterday I wound up with two Ss on her and an S+ in Hexakill. I don't know if she is a mechanically difficult champ or not but I'd assume that even if she isn't it'd work the same way for any champ. In the end I'd say it's worth it, because learning a new champion can be a huge payoff in the end! Just obviously don't take a new champ into ranked! XD [slayer-jinx-catface]

Mad King Hades2 votes

She is pretty good, but I always mess up her w's. Click too fast for the mouse to follow when I have an enemy champ, which in return ruins the whole relation I have with Taliyah.

Fox Byte1 votes

Yeah her W can be a bit tricky and takes some practice to use right. I've quite literally played her for five days straight and I STILL miss her Ws more than I'd like. It's especially hard when you are in the middle of a huge team fight and start trying to get things off fast. I'll end up clicking too fast and placing it like right in front of myself instead of in front of the enemy. I honestly use it most for chasing an enemy to knock them back into me. It's also much MUCH easier to land after you have item 3116. It's a must build on her and it makes life so much easier! Keep at it though! I'm sure you'll get it down!

On a side note, I kinda regret splurging and buying Aruelion Sol when he first came out and not doing the same for Taliyah. XD I can't play Sol to save my life.

ModThe Djinn3 votes

There's no shame in learning a new champion -- even players in Challenger have to do it occasionally, after all. It gets easier the more you play the game though -- I've played Taliyah once so far, for example, but I've play enough mages and enough mobile characters that I can probably avoid feeding as her. Might I lose my lane horribly and let someone dangerous farm up? Definitely. The trick is just knowing how to mitigate a loss as much as possible. Playing someone hyper aggressive like Riven? Learn when to accept the lane loss and stop face-checking into the now fed Darius. Don't try for the glorious turn-around.

Playing a new jungler, and have a lane that has fed 7 kills? Keep an eye on it if the enemy gets overaggressive, but don't go hero-mode into the lane like you might on the jungle main you know well -- you'll just give them THREE kills next time.

Learning new characters is part of the game. Being SMART about learning new characters is important though.

Maximum Morde2 votes

Tldr.

But to answer the title, it's an unfortunate, unavoidable consequence of learning a new champion. Fairness to the other players in the match is irrelevant.

disregardable2 votes

I think there's a difference between learning a champion and playing a champion you suck at. It shouldn't take you a large number of games to stop feeding on a champion. If it does, then that's a problem with your preferred playstyle clashing with that champion's kit, not with needing to learn what order to press the buttons in.

Kingnewgameplus2 votes

Keep it out of ranked, otherwise I don't care if you go ap twitch jungle.

dragon1xx2 votes

Don't do it in ranked. Otherwise, I'm sure we're all ok with it.Rammus Rammus Rammus Rammus Rammus

9kPluzZ2 votes

Just play dude.

ZT Xperimentor2 votes

Pride has exploded in league, most of the toxic players acting like they're better than everyone else; forgetting they were just as bad when they started out. It's disheartening that the community has been grinding it's own gears over semantics. But I agree with stonewall, bots can only teach you so much; and the meta is just upheld by uncomfortable sheep.

In answer to your question, yes I'd say it's worth it & fair to teammates to practice in normal pvp. Everyone had to start out doing such, though to be courteous let them know in the lobby ahead of time. That way they can setup around you as a backup plan, and if not then they'll have a que time penalty for being unsupportive.

For example a friend of mine plays primarily as marksmen bottom lane, or some kind of carry jungler; while I tend to play tanks top lane or utility supports, so we often synergize. Though a couple patches ago he wanted to try yasou middle lane, hadn't played him before (aside from a single bot game to see what he does) and let the others know he was new to him in the pvp lobbies; it took multiple times before we finally got a group that was accepting, though only one guy actually picked something, a marksmen. With the other two waiting on me (since we mentioned we were a duo) I went as zac jungle, I'd done it a few times before so I at least had an idea how to farm with him, but I was banking on setting up his ultimate. After I locked in my pick the other two followed my lead, one of the remaining two randoms picked malphite top & the support went with braum. Though the early game was rough, our teamfights went much better with us being able to set up eachother for combos.

Jasiwel2 votes

This situation is where I miss Teambuilder. It had a separate matchmaking system that made learning new champions friendlier because you weren't being placed against players you would normally play against using your best champions.

I've been super discouraged ever since TB was removed because there really isn't that friendly of an environment to learn new champions in given Normals Blind is a cesspool (more often than not), Normals Draft usually features players who are experienced and practicing with champions for Ranked, and of course Ranked is not a good environment for learning a champion from scratch.

I think TB had a lot of promise in the realm of practicing because you could choose your champion without fear of conflicts or bans, and the matchmaking did a good enough job of making sure your opponent wasn't several tiers more experienced.

A Basic Island2 votes

doesn't matter what the other players in game think

If this is the mentality then they need to quit

How the fuck else does anyone expect anyone to learn someone?

"oh i guess ill play garen for forever so i dont feed and annoy others."

Sahn Uzal1 votes

As soon as I read the title I knew it'd be about Stonewalls video.

Then I had the idea of building a Duskblade AD Caster build without crit on Gangplank, now that Triforce got nerfed on him. So basically Ionians-Triforce-Youmuu's-Duskblade-BT and a defensive item. When looking at the damage dealt your barrels would deal much more damage in the midgame and only a little less lategame, for that you'd sacrifize the absolute late-game powerspike that a regular crit build grants you ( Some of you can still test and report on it if you want, would love to see some opinions on that ).

I'm a Gangplank main, and I actually tried something like this when the Trinity Force change hit live. item 3078 > item 3142 > item 3009 > item 3053 / item 3156 > item 3147 > item 3036 / item 3033 it was fun to try out, but simply didn't feel like it was worth it.

I had the luxury of learning Gangplank when he was hilariously overpowered, so I was able to do quite well when learning him simply because he was overpowered AF. (Spending hours in custom games practicing combos helped aswell =P)

Personally, I'd recommend people to queue up with friends, who know you are planning to try and learn a champion and won't expect you to do well. If you meet some nice people in games, add them and invite them for your ''practicing'' games. I understand not everyone has friends to play with, so I wouldn't call it mandatory, but it is recommendable IMO, because getting flamed for trying to learn a champion is not fun, nor is having an 0 13 Yasuo on your team.

Mad King Hades1 votes

If I am honest, I find it incredibly funny when people start flaming. While I may get slightly irritated at trying to kill an enemy YI with 10 kills I still find it interesting that someone has the courage to try something instead of being a sheep (or Annie )

JustARivenMain1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tidal Tyrant,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JwYVb2kQ,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-06-13T13:33:40.756+0000)

As soon as I read the title I knew it'd be about Stonewalls video.

I'm a Gangplank main, and I actually tried something like this when the Trinity Force change hit live. item 3078 > item 3142 > item 3009 > item 3053 / item 3156 > item 3147 > item 3036 / item 3033 it was fun to try out, but simply didn't feel like it was worth it.

I had the luxury of learning Gangplank when he was hilariously overpowered, so I was able to do quite well when learning him simply because he was overpowered AF. (Spending hours in custom games practicing combos helped aswell =P)

Personally, I'd recommend people to queue up with friends, who know you are planning to try and learn a champion and won't expect you to do well. If you meet some nice people in games, add them and invite them for your ''practicing'' games. I understand not everyone has friends to play with, so I wouldn't call it mandatory, but it is recommendable IMO, because getting flamed for trying to learn a champion is not fun, nor is having an 0 13 Yasuo on your team.

Been playing Gangplank since before his first Rework, seeing his changes has been fun, but i've always been a fan of Tankplank, since his first rework myself.

Sahn Uzal1 votes

I remember that Riot wanted to keep Tankplank a viable option, that's why they made his W scale with % missing HP.

I believe the raw physical damage Titanic Hydra deals to the first target hit is applied on barrels... But other than that, Tankplank doesn't have a lot going for 'm item 3078 item 3111 item 3748 item 3053 item 3065 item 3742 This does look like a fun build to try out though

JustARivenMain1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tidal Tyrant,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JwYVb2kQ,comment-id=000100010000,timestamp=2016-06-14T07:06:30.805+0000)

I remember that Riot wanted to keep Tankplank a viable option, that's why they made his W scale with % missing HP.

I believe the raw physical damage Titanic Hydra deals to the first target hit is applied on barrels... But other than that, Tankplank doesn't have a lot going for 'm item 3078 item 3111 item 3748 item 3053 item 3065 item 3742 This does look like a fun build to try out though

I usually go like Iceborn instead of Tri, cause the constant slow and kite potential, then instead of titanic more Tank cause Oranges have like a 8 second CD max build, so yeah. But Tankplank is my favorite still, and always has been.

Sahn Uzal1 votes

Meh, the barrels already slow, you don't need the IBG for that. Barrels apply the 200% base AD sheen proc from Trinity force. (that is even stronger with steraks) Honestly, a GP build without Trinity force is not a GP build.

Friendly Ram1 votes

You might want to que up with a friend when trying something new.

Salron1 votes

Triforce is still absolutely core on GP, don't let the loss of crit fool you

Sahn Uzal1 votes

Can confirm.

Veraska1 votes

Everyone's gotta start somewhere and you're going to lose games no matter what, it doesn't matter if you're feeding on azir or just losing on annie, losses are gonna happen, with that in mind I wouldn't discourage people learning the more mechanically heavy champions.

Aerothal1 votes

you can do basic mechanic training for a new champ in bot games but at some point you have to take the jump to pvp.

SANDBOX MODE RIOT PLZ

as long as you dont do that in ranked, you should be fine. telling people at the beginning that you are new on the champ is a good idea. apart of that, i'd avoid chat and concentrate on your play.

Battlecast Sona1 votes

A player who is trying to learn a champion is still likely to contribute to a win, even if they do poorly. I honestly think the most detrimental thing you can do to someone learning a champ is flame them - they're already playing on something their skill level is low on. Like others have said though, as long as you're not intentionally feeding I don't really care - it's a little frustrating to lose those games but if you're only playing League to win you're going to be frustrated roughly 50% of the time anyway.

Only Play Darius1 votes

If you want to learn mechanically hard champions you should make a smurf account and practice there where your mistakes won't be punished, feeding every game will demoralize you and make hard champions seem unplayable.

DeathBurst1 votes

Well, I suggest using a smurf or at least NOT playing your main champs in Normals. If you keep your mains champs out of Normals, your MMR in this Queue will be lower, and even if you are not mechanically good with the new champs/builds you are training with, your game knowledge should help you not feed.

And of course, same thing with a smurf: your MMR will be lower on that account, and more in phase with your "training in progress" mode. Just please, don't use your mains champs to stomp newbies. Not fun for them, not fun at all.

But yeah, losing lanes while learning is definitely worth it, and as long as you lose 0-2 or 0-3 and not 0-12, it's not really a problem.

TheDyNaM01 votes

When I play in normals, I expect a lot of trolls, feeders, bad attitude, afks, etc.

If a players feeds and still communicate or you can see that he's trying, there is no problem at all.

When I learn new champ, I always start the match saying 'trying this champ, I'll do my best, suggestions are welcome' Sometimes it backfires, as soon as you get killed you get flamed, but 90% of the time people do understand.

Vs AI games or in custom mode is also a good way to learn new champ, before going into normals.

escape1 votes

Support main trying to learn ADC here... My support is Gold V and ADC probably Bronze 3? (because i did really bad in a bronze 1 game on a friend's account) Because i don't like feeding every game so i just created a new account? i think that is the best solution

BluePolarizer1 votes

I dunno, when you have guys saying "first time Trundle" and feeding...

I don't think the mechanical difficulty matters. Feeders gonna be feeders.

wind guy1 votes

Imo it's best to play some bots to get the mechanics down, then play lots of normals (maybe smurfing) to improve on a hard champ. Even the best players sucked at the beginning.

Apocalypsic1 votes

Nothing is wrong with learning as long as you keep it in norms

Wheatloaf1 votes

As more or less everyone else here is saying, just don't do it in ranked. If you want to learn a mechanically difficult champion, just do it. Learning to play Azir was one of the best/most satisfying experiences I've had in League.

Takatsuki Yayoi1 votes

As long as you're not like, actively trolling, then I think normals are pretty much fair game. Ranked is definitely off limits though.

bleufromage1 votes

Are you saying you have to take gp into dynamic que (which is ranked)? IF it is a mechanically complex champ and you want to theory craft just create a customs with intermediate bots. You can get a feel for the mechanics and see if your build melts faces.if you arent owning the bots then do play till you do.and you can leave the game whenever u want. I personally hate people that have to ruin my game becuse they think they should only play ranked and with champions that they have little to no familiarity with.

SwiftKitten881 votes

first you play the champ in bots... then you play it in unranked.. AFTER your good at the champion... you play it in ranked..

if you taking it into ranked the first time and feeding then YES your an idoit. LEARN the champ first...

TyroneWatermelon1 votes

There is no mechanically difficult champion in league. Only unfamiliar playstyle and abilities.

Hello I am Bird3 votes

If the unfamiliar playstyle takes a noticeably longer amount of time to master, then it's mechanically difficult.

ImmortalBloodCY1 votes

Mechanically difficult champions in LoL ??????

What are you smoking.

Asyde1 votes

I play off meta builds and champs all the time in norms, and only if i'm really successful with it do I carry it into ranked.

Darfaller1 votes

If they have a lot of death, barely any kills, then all i ask is that you have the second highest number of assits, or else your just wasting space. (seriously though, if you are doing really bad then at least try to do something impactful, maybe just go full tank and or 1 dmg item tank so that if the enemy focuses you, you will delay them and maybe your allies can get more dmg out.

FrickendaChicken1 votes

I personally believe that a player should be able to understand basics of safe laning and building before picking up more advanced characters.

So even if they don't understand the minute difficult maneuvers of a champion, they can still do something basic that that champion can do.

For example, if you want to begin maining Azir, but have never played him before, then what you should be able to do is know how to farm and learn overtime how to successfully poke and dominate lanes safely as Azir. The player then can earn gold by safe laning and smart play and still do what Azir does in teamfights, as well as learn more difficult maneuvers. Azir can still pump out damage, the player isn't being yelled at while they're learning a new champion that is difficult to play in teamfights, and hopefully that player's team is working together and making a good effort to win!

Sugar Mantis1 votes

Even faker fed his first few games on a champ. Well, maybe not faker, but definitely everyone else. Its all about learning! Try new builds, champions, off meta theories. League isnt about winning, only ranked is. League is about having fun, so as long as you're having fun, it's worth it.

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