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Coin basically removes the counterplay for passive supports

RedCyclone··18 votes·1,489 views

Before the inane buffs it went through you could rely on causing a passive support to use up their mana and open up good opportunities to engage, but now that the item is literally infinite mana for the low low price of 350g you watch a passive support spam their skills then be at full mana in the matter of picking up a few coins

The mana coin portion is something more suitable for a fully completed item, not a starter item And remember the mana coins are the "2nd passive" of support gold gen items, so compare infinite mana to the tiny bit of damage Spelltheif gets or the small heal that Relic gives, Coin absolutely blows both of them out of the water with that power alone, not forgetting that it nets you more gold on average then Spelltheif or Relic procs

Coin was clearly overbuffed and it really needs to be brought down a number of pegs, just because it has a history of being bad doesn't mean it should have a stanglehold over the other gold gen items

38 Comments

Tobias Brackner18 votes

Hit them when they go for the coin.

RedCyclone3 votes

They still pick it up from like 300 units away and usually will wait for the safest time to pick it up since they linger for a ridiculously long time

Tobias Brackner8 votes

You sure about the didstance? I remember you needing to be pretty close. Then again 300 is just under twice Darius's melee so that does sound like you need to get right up to the coin.

And waiting for the safest has a lot to do w/ how the lane is going rather than any inherent strength of the item. A close lane can mean that those coins are very dangerous to pick up.

50000000000000006 votes

Ranged champions have bigger pickup radius.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

Where does it say that?

50000000000000002 votes

Not sure. I can't find sources either, but I can speak from experience that I can pick up coins from further range when I play Janna than Thresh. Thresh isn't melee but he has shorter range, so I'm gonna guess it scales with attack range, rather than having two distinct melee/ranged threshold.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

Video evidence? This would be a very important piece of information to decide if Ancient Coin is too safe.

FilDaFunk2 votes

Keep pressure on them.

Very Hard Engage13 votes

ill have you know a taric who maxes heal still burns through his mana pool even with coin.

RedCyclone1 votes

Even when upgraded? I feel that may be a issue with Taric, but he's not exactly picked for his healing powers though

Erockandroll1 votes

{quoted}

Even when upgraded? I feel that may be a issue with Taric, but he's not exactly picked for his healing powers though

according to the tool tip, The coin line offers 15% at all tiers. It's upgrade shouldn't be a factor.

But I'm interested in the part were the mana coins restore 15% missing mana. I would combined that with ICB or other support items that increased Maximum mana.

RedCyclone1 votes

Oh, I had just assumed it was more when it gets upgraded since the mana scaling on lv up makes it go up too

My Waifu Vanilla3 votes

I mean that's what you get for maxing the heal. It's 2 points and Q early and then max E because your Q is god awful early on. Putting points in Q only gives you charges and increases the mana cost. The extra charges don't mean anything in laning phase since you will almost always heal on 2 stacks anyway (for Bravado) and getting past 2 stacks means you are casting more abilities anyway (for a still lackluster heal). Dazzle on the other hand does not go up in mana cost but goes up A LOT in damage and goes down in cooldown.

Very Hard Engage1 votes

and what if its a corki/rakan lane who you have literally zero hope of stunning unless you're piling up on someone else.

and you would just prefer the sustain in lane to survive it/make it more manageable.

ie you picked taric first and got destroyed on the draft.

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

You stun to peel? Rakan literally cannot engage because his W holds him still long enough for him to get stunned or he HAS to just instantly E away. Also, as I stated earlier you do NOT heal for any more per rank of Q. The only thing you get is more stacks which requires you to spam abilities anyway to get to anything higher than 2 stacks (which is why you only go up to 2 points as to not "waste" Bravado). THE most efficient use of Q will almost always be a 2 stacked Q because it lines perfectly with your passive and gives the most CDR for your other abilities. The only outlier here is when you get up to 4 stacks from an E or W after the Q. If you are in a bad match up that only gives you less of an incentive to max Q because the only realistic way you get stacks is to actually attack something which only puts you in range of taking more damage than you can reasonably heal. At least with E max you can disengage more often and can actually be a damage threat that says "if you go in on this hook thresh you ARE going to take 200+ damage from my E" instead of "if you go in on this hook Thresh you are going to take like 50 damage while I heal for MAYBE 100 something".

Very Hard Engage1 votes

im saying they're incredibly mobile targets or have defined escapes/range to the point where its unreasonable for taric to ever engage without using flash as an initiation tool, otherwise hes just taking free harassment at which point its more beneficial to have heal raised over stun

im 100% agreeing he should max stun first, but there are situations in which heal is more useful for the lane due to disgusting matchups.

making taric a heal bot in that lane matchup will make him oom.

otherwise he doesn't even have coin.

koshkyra7 votes

It still gave like 20% more than the other lines pre-buff.

Now i find myself playing Janna with 1400 gold from it before the enemy thresh has even completed his reward.

RedCyclone2 votes

I know about the first fact but it was offset by having a inferior passive, I never did understand the logic behind making a passive item give more gold then a aggressive item but I personally let it slide because the item itself was pretty underwhelming back then

Morgy Morgy2 votes

you act like every minion killed always drops a coin i collected like 15 coins total one game, because the drop rate is just so low

Morgy Morgy1 votes

when a coin does drop tho, it gives huge benefits, either 40 gold or 15% missing mana, which is huge for poke supports i'd say just do something different with the item

50000000000000002 votes

The coin drop is pseudorandom, so if you don't get drops for a while, you have higher chance of it dropping. Somewhat like Thresh souls. You also get a guaranteed coin drop for every kill or assist.

My Waifu Vanilla2 votes

Also every cannon minion.

Nevrankroaton2 votes

The mana it give isn't even that important at tiers 1 (even tiers 2) and can be punished, I really don't understand your issue.

It does give a sh*tload of money tho.

RizHippoKhan2 votes

the other items need to be buffed to suit coin ;)

Zone of Endless2 votes

The mana coin drop isn't an issue with coin at all. Passive support would never run out of mana in the first place unless they constantly spam their abilities which you shouldn't in the first place if you're playing passive. The problem with coin as of now is how much gold it generate and how cheap support items generally are. This let support reach full build much quicker than before. Typically if a game goes well support can have full build by around 27 to 30 minutes with coin or at least be ahead on the enemy's support with spellthief/relic on items.

Rito Staff1 votes

Indeed, either mana coins from item 3301 need to give a lot less (something that would mitigate the mana famine some go through) or not at all and only at further upgrades. I like the item but too OP

Bootleg Gay1 votes

It just makes the support, and thus the marksman, far too safe. They'll just outlast you and poke you down, with no fear of losing mana or gold.

My big issue is that even if you manage to push them back, even if you get them under tower and you think they'll miss out on mana or gold because they're too far away from your minions, the coin will sit there and wait for them for a solid minute.

It's too safe. It's too potent, and it's too easy to abuse.

SIEGE2UK1 votes

Supports have to collect the coins, this opens up a weakness to be exploited. I don't play bot loads anymore but if the range is too far, maybe melee range to pick it up would balance it?

My Waifu Vanilla3 votes

The range was slightly buffed after the initial rework because it WAS melee range and it bouncing into your caster creeps caused you to spend like 3 seconds trying to pick the stupid thing up while eating hella harass because unit collision decided to not be kind to you.

sad þoy1 votes

Makes mage supports better viable against aggro tank supports that fuck you up with CC, enough time for the opponent ADC to kill you. :) I'm happy with it, Raka/Nami main.

Lots of other OP broken shit going on then to worry about support shit, js.

Nomad Sol1 votes

Meddler mains Janna.

Let that sink in and you'll understand this entire seasons support itemization balance catastrophe.

The Yetii Rider2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dora Bora,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JpVhBdjE,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2017-07-27T15:38:37.025+0000)

Meddler mains Janna.

Let that sink in and you'll understand this entire seasons support itemization balance catastrophe.

insert gif of Ben Brode laughing here

....What? I'm a lazy memer. We can't all be Laughing Fish.

My Waifu Vanilla2 votes

Horrible justification since the only "good" change for Janna this season has been the coin line. Redemption and Locket both got hit making them less effective for Janna (redemption is still good after Ardent but definitely not before like it used to be) and Thresh/Blitz consistently being in the top 5 supports also greatly affects Janna.

Siegfriedx11 votes

I would like to see it giving less mana but adding permanent % mana regen(so can be used with chalice and have a weaker early phase).

AwesomeGuyDj1 votes

Isnt it also the highest gold giving item?

FlameanatorX1 votes

Others have already said hit them when they go for the coin like a draven axe, but the other counterplay is to all-in them to death, then their mana pool is irrelevant.

Cavesloth1 votes

Honestly I'd like someone to do the math averaging what the new passive gives in mana vs the old one, just to prove whether or not he right.

rtbf2216514121 votes

Yeah definitely cannot set a trap for you trying to pick up a coin.

The coin is the worst support gold income item right now.

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