I'm so happy about the state of tanks in this game
http://imgur.com/DSWvNLS Definitely not a damage meta at all.
263 armor. 193 MR. 4k HP. Dies in less than 2 seconds.
53 Comments
LF Annie12 votesto be fair, all three ppl i see on that recap have anti-tank items and malz is a tank killer late game.
Jefftiffy2 votes[{quoted}](name=LF Annie,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JlTtQpp1,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-02-04T14:53:46.964+0000)
to be fair, all three ppl i see on that recap have anti-tank items and malz is a tank killer late game.
I don't give a flying fuck. A tank should not die in 2s especially one with no CC and is supposed to be hyper late game. It just isn't balanced at all from a design stand point.
If a tank can't live for 2s what does that make you think about the squishies. If anyone gets even near the tank they would instantly explode in less than .25s. You can't call that good design.
Also want to point out that Malzahar only had flat magic pen. Meaning I still have upwards of 150 MR against him and he still did 1.8k damage. Now add in the fact that there are anti-tank items and it shows just how little Riot understands about this game. The game isn't in a good state if somebody who builds to live can't because items that are made to counter them exist but items meant to counter the items that counter it don't.
Ralanr4 votesIf you have No CC then you ain't a tank, son.
rmch997 votesIf people itemize to kill tanks quickly, and you are being focused by THREE PEOPLE ITEMIZING TO KILL TANKS then yes, a tank should die in 2 seconds. None of them did anything close to broken damage, but you were being hit by three people. Quinn had bork and last whisper item, tank buster items. Mlaz has %-max-hp damage and a liandrys, and caitlyn had a last whisper item. All of them should be able to hurt tanks.
Jefftiffy2 votesIf people itemize to kill tanks quickly, and you are being focused by THREE PEOPLE ITEMIZING TO KILL TANKS then yes, a tank should die in 2 seconds. None of them did anything close to broken damage, but you were being hit by three people. Quinn had bork and last whisper item, tank buster items. Mlaz has %-max-hp damage and a liandrys, and caitlyn had a last whisper item. All of them should be able to hurt tanks.
The point isn't that they should be able to kill tanks its that even pretending I didn't have any I took enough damage to kill a carry at least 2 times from a single champ just because they bought an anti tank item. If you can focus down a tank in 2s what does that say about the ability to kill their team?
LF Annie1 votesok do the math, liandrais+ rylais =3% dmg per tick at a fairly fast tick rate, malz W is %hp dmg, bork on quinn is %health, 
gives %bonus dmg to targets with more hp, and 45% bonus ar pen. you had nothing for them to fear at all as a tank because their items nullify your choice of play. next time build AP nukesas and just 1shot everything.
LF Annie3 votesthink about the tank killer items like this, they do less to squishies because they only are effective against tanks.
Critmaster Garen1 votes[{quoted}](name=LF Annie,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JlTtQpp1,comment-id=00000000000100000001,timestamp=2016-02-04T15:13:09.832+0000)
think about the tank killer items like this, they do less to squishies because they only are effective against tanks.
they have enough flat damage boosts attached to them, that theyre relative as strong against squishies as against tanks. and theyre easily built into an otherwise crit heavy and burst oriented build.
please go ahead and tell me how a single malzahar e wouldnt still melt 50% of the health bar of a squishy with that build.
its not a choice between anti tank items, and anti squishy items if the same build is effective against both.
LF Annie2 votesmalz can melt anything, its malz's stick, he gets one dead per minute. don't argue apples to oranges.
but for the marksman there, the damage is based on health pool difference, against another marksman, that item is inefficient. 6 items on someone that has to fight tanks is weaker against 6 items built to fight squishies, IN A MARKSMAN TO MARKSMAN FIGHT.
Jefftiffy1 votes[{quoted}](name=LF Annie,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JlTtQpp1,comment-id=00000000000100000001,timestamp=2016-02-04T15:13:09.832+0000)
think about the tank killer items like this, they do less to squishies because they only are effective against tanks.
40 AD and 80 AP say otherwise. Botrk is really the only balanced anti tank item and only because they finally nerfed it so its actually a situational item. 40 AD is quite a bit and almost all magic pen item has 60+ AP. Meaning it really isn't cutting that much into their power budget. They aren't just effective against tanks. They are effective against everyone because they are mixes of raw stats and then penetration. The only one that isn't is Botrk and that had to be nerfed to that state.
LF Annie1 votestheir cost/effectiveness ratio goes from negative to positive the more resistances that an opponent has because most pen items are either flat, designed to fight squishies, or %bonus designed to hit tanks,40 ad is pittance to a bloodthirster, or IE that give much better fighting stats against non-tank targets.
Jefftiffy2 votes[{quoted}](name=LF Annie,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JlTtQpp1,comment-id=0000000000010000000100010000,timestamp=2016-02-04T16:03:52.729+0000)
their cost/effectiveness ratio goes from negative to positive the more resistances that an opponent has because most pen items are either flat, designed to fight squishies, or %bonus designed to hit tanks,40 ad is pittance to a bloodthirster, or IE that give much better fighting stats against non-tank targets.
Does it really matter though. The point is that anti-tank items are practically essential because very rarely is there ever a time where I go: I have full build including armor pen, maybe I should swap out the armor pen for more raw damage. Tank shred items tend be pretty gold efficient as well as slot efficient meaning that there is no reason not to take them unless the enemy team doesn't build any tank stats whatsoever. And even then 
is 1300g to negate about 20% of your gold.
LF Annie1 votesin around half of the games i play, there isnt enough resistances built to warrant buying it in the first place.
1374343 votesIf you can focus down a tank in 2s what does that say about the ability to kill their team?
Nothing? Yeah, they may be able to do a lot of damage, but presumably your team has carries too. I hope your team wasn't solely relying on you for that department. You had a Lux, Graves, and Kog on your team. When they were focused on you your teammates should have been focused on them. In fact your team had more kills than they did!
You were also ulted by Malz, of course it is easy to focus you down in 2s.
lightdragoon884 votesI don't give a flying fuck.
And that is how we feel about your whining.
Spicy Rice1 votesNever knew nether grasp wasnt cc...
Critmaster Garen2 votes[{quoted}](name=LF Annie,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JlTtQpp1,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-02-04T14:53:46.964+0000)
to be fair, all three ppl i see on that recap have anti-tank items and malz is a tank killer late game.
to be fair, if there are anti tank items available for everyone and tank killers that are part of every team, then there are no tanks.
technically nasus is a bruiser and not a tank, but should anyone with a defensive build like that blow up in less than 2 seconds? whats the point of building those items and playing these champs then? you die before you can act anyways, so you could just go with a champion who builds 6 offensive items and see if you can kill your opponent faster than he kills you.
and thus we end up in the marksmen vs. assassins meta that we have now, and that feels shit for everyone.
LF Annie1 votesthe problem is that if you dont have tanks, the anti-tank items are not bought because they are only effective against tanks.
no matter who you are if you have 3 ppl built to beat your kit fighting you, you're prob dead.
1374344 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JlTtQpp1,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2016-02-04T15:12:54.490+0000)
technically nasus is a bruiser and not a tank, but should anyone with a defensive build like that blow up in less than 2 seconds? whats the point of building those items and playing these champs then? you die before you can act anyways, so you could just go with a champion who builds 6 offensive items and see if you can kill your opponent faster than he kills you.
Tanks are meant to soak up damage. They are not meant to be able to automatically 1v3/4/5 in the late game. His teammates should have been around responding by attacking the enemies (like the rooted Malzahar).
Critmaster Garen2 votesTanks are meant to soak up damage. They are not meant to be able to automatically 1v3/4/5 in the late game. His teammates should have been around responding by attacking the enemies (like the rooted Malzahar).
first of all, bruisers arent meant to just be there to soak up damage for their team. nasus, garen, darius etc. as examples of the more tanky fighters are supposed to deal damage. thats impossible for them if they die in literally less than 2 seconds before they can even get into melee range of anyone.
second, why even pick a champ who soaks up the enemies damage, then dies instead of an assassin who can kill any of those 3 before they can deal damage in the first place, then move onto the next guy?
1374343 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JlTtQpp1,comment-id=0000000100010000,timestamp=2016-02-04T15:30:41.179+0000)
first of all, bruisers arent meant to just be there to soak up damage for their team. nasus, garen, darius etc. as examples of the more tanky fighters are supposed to deal damage. thats impossible for them if they die in literally less than 2 seconds before they can even get into melee range of anyone.
Yes, but that happens if you are focused by every carry on the enemy team. A brusier would be insanely broken if three 4+ item carries couldn't bring them down quickly.
second, why even pick a champ who soaks up the enemies damage, then dies instead of an assassin who can kill any of those 3 before they can deal damage in the first place, then move onto the next guy?
Because the tanky guy is tanking for 2s + an ultimate to take down while the squishy would take less than 1 second with that much focus from late game carries. An assassin can't kill any of them before they respond. All Malz has to do is use his point and click ult to lock you down then one more shot from someone else would probably kill you.
Have you ever played on a team with no tanky members? You usually do fine in the early-mid game, but as the game stretches on it quickly becomes much much harder to win teamfights.
Spicy Rice4 votesMaybe because by soaking that damage and crucial damage skills/cc's, you allow your teams dage dealers to do their job...
Critmaster Garen2 votesMaybe because by soaking that damage and crucial damage skills/cc's, you allow your teams dage dealers to do their job...
dealing damage is nasus job.
xShiNjiNx1 votesto be fair, if there are anti tank items available for everyone and tank killers that are part of every team, then there are no tanks.
Lol
Critmaster Garen1 votesLol
whats so funy about this? if tanks can get blown up almost as fast as squishies, due to anti-tank itemization and an abundance of anti tank champs existing then they arent really tanky, are they?
really the only ones who are tanky right now are mundo and tahm, due to the fact that both of them essentially have a second health bar. effective health that doesnt directly increase your maximum health is literally the only defensive mechanic left that is worth a damn.
resistances get cut in half, and then some, and flat health just gets destroyed by % health damage.
the amount of damage in this game right now is too much. no one expects to be invincible, but even under the focus of 3 carries no tank or fighter with a full defensive build should fall in less than 10 seconds.
my issue here is that the nasus didnt just get focused down. he practically got assassinated.
you guys can argue all day how he soaked up a lot of damage for his team, but thats not really worth a damn, if the champions who killed him deal a shitload of sustained damage and can just turn on the next target and do the same with him.
xShiNjiNx1 votes3 carries all built to counter armor and health, and you think he should live more than 2 seconds. No thanks.
Critmaster Garen1 votes3 carries all built to counter armor and health, and you think he should live more than 2 seconds. No thanks.
yes, i do.
the problem is that theyre is so much damage in the game and building to blow up with a full defensive build in less than 2 seconds is even possible.
xShiNjiNx1 votesYou wana try writing that again in a way that i can understand?
Nahui6 votesWell you did your job. You burned some valuable cool downs. That's your job. Now malz can't ult the squishy. No matter your role, if their whole team focuses you, you die. Tanks live a bit longer but they're not allowed to be immortal and deal high damage.
UnsatisfyingLove3 votesWalks into 1v3 When both the ADC have
xShiNjiNx3 votesRotfl what the fuck did u expect? You're not invincible just because you stacked resistances. You had a fucking Malz ult you under his W while 2 adcs auto'd the fuck out of you till you died. This isn't a balance issue, this is you probably being way out of fucking position LOL.
Jefftiffy2 votesRotfl what the fuck did u expect? You're not invincible just because you stacked resistances. You had a fucking Malz ult you under his W while 2 adcs auto'd the fuck out of you till you died. This isn't a balance issue, this is you probably being way out of fucking position LOL.
No it is because look at the meta. Look at the top picks in this meta. Not a single tank or bruiser. The ones that have been got nerfed.
. All the best viable champs right now are damage power houses. Fiora is starting to be built tank because she is so innately damage focused.
The only viable tanks right now 
(because he can actually regen through a lot of damage) 
(he has never been a bad pick).
xShiNjiNx2 votesI don't even know how to respond to this level of autism.
Critmaster Garen2 votesRotfl what the fuck did u expect? You're not invincible just because you stacked resistances. You had a fucking Malz ult you under his W while 2 adcs auto'd the fuck out of you till you died. This isn't a balance issue, this is you probably being way out of fucking position LOL.
no one expects to be invincible. but dieing in less than 2 seconds with almost a full defensive build is also unacceptable. even if champions would specifically itemize into busting defense, which apparantly they dont really have to (the malzhar didnt even get a void staff), it should al least take a couple seconds to focus him down.
he didnt just get killed by sustained damage, he got rightout assassinated.
xShiNjiNx1 votesit should al least take a couple seconds to focus him down.
so .15 more seconds? And we have an agreement? I suppose we are close enough.
Old Man Teeto3 votesTwo ADC's with LW's hitting you and Malzahar full combo.
Pretty impressed you lived two seconds.
Salron2 votesBeing focused by 3 enemy carries tends to do that Malz was full build too and he is one of the best tank busters in the game
I don't see a problem Nasus doesn't have any innate tankiness aside from his ult HP boost
Critmaster Garen2 voteswhat worries me really bout this picture is, that the malzahar didnt even need a void staff. he couldnt have had more than 50 magic pen with runes, masteries, boots and liandries.
Jefftiffy1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JlTtQpp1,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-02-04T15:38:52.958+0000)
what worries me really bout this picture is, that the malzahar didnt even need a void staff. he couldnt have had more than 50 magic pen with runes, masteries, boots and liandries.
Why is no one looking at this and just sitting there saying your wrong.
Meep Man4 votesYeah, except he has like 700 AP or so.
120 80 100 Majei's (max 145) 100 +35%
735.75 AP excluding runes and masteries.
Then he has, as said, maybe 50 magic pen max. That's reduces your magic resist to about 143 magic resist.
Ok, so he ultimates, dealing damage unknown since we can't see his Level, so Im assuming Rank 3 ultimate. Thats about 550. AP Ratio of 130% AP, so that's 956 bonus magic damage. Thats about 1506 magic damage.
TL;DR That damage is correct, you should have taken about 650 or so damage from his ultimate. You mitigated his damage by 66%.
That's just his ultimate however, this is excluding his % health damage W and his E and Q. Not to mention the possible Voidling. Is that a Luden's I see?
Basically, that damage in almost every way is correct. That Malzahar, alone, should have dealt around 60% of your HP, which is fine since he is extremely squishy with that build and he is max build NOT to mention Malzahar is one of the biggest Tank busters in the game.
THIS ISN'T EVEN MENTIONING you were a Fighter character that has no defensive steroids without his ultimate. Majority of actual Tanks have huge defensive steroids to mitigate such things.
Dedrius3 votesMalz had Liandries and his Pool does %maxhealth Damage so he doesn't really need the Void Staff since a lot of his damage is coming from the %health damage rather than straight AP.
Critmaster Garen1 votesMalz had Liandries and his Pool does %maxhealth Damage so he doesn't really need the Void Staff since a lot of his damage is coming from the %health damage rather than straight AP.
i know what malzahar had. the nasus also had 4k hp and almost 300 mr. the mr being the important part here. a lot of the magic damage should have been cut down.
with that small amount of magic pen the damage mitigation should have given him practically a permanent alistar ult against malzahars damage. the fact that he didnt even have to bother with a void staff to break through that much mr is whats really anoying me.
either way. its just too much damage in the game. even with being focused by 3 carries, 2 seconds is ridiculous. its not even time to move or react to flash out of the fight before the suppression wears off.
Mr Broken Wings1 votes"ooh look at me, I am a tank main and already dominate the complete midgame right now, how does it come that CARRIES can deal with me in latgameszenarios? THATS TOTALLY UNFAIR." .... Well and then you played tham cancer and 1 v5ed the enemies even in a lategameszenario, halleluja. Fact is, tanks spike midgame and lategame carries spike, that was always like that and should stay like that.
Critmaster Garen2 votes[{quoted}](name=Mr Broken Wings,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JlTtQpp1,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-02-04T15:21:07.016+0000)
"ooh look at me, I am a tank main and already dominate the complete midgame right now, how does it come that CARRIES can deal with me in latgameszenarios? THATS TOTALLY UNFAIR." .... Well and then you played tham cancer and 1 v5ed the enemies even in a lategameszenario, halleluja. Fact is, tanks spike midgame and lategame carries spike, that was always like that and should stay like that.
but thats not entirely true. people act as if carries are weak early and then its a steady curve of scaling into lategame.
we can all agree that ad carries scale really strong into lategame, even if they do end up at different power levels. for example jinx lategame will be a lot stronger than ashe lategame, but ashe will still be able to wreck tanky champs.
however a lot of adc already have a really strong early game against fighters and tanks. quinn, lucian, graves, vayne for example. they can easily go into solo lanes against them. other adc are simply very safe to play against these champions. ive been trying cait in solo lanes and shes really easy to play passive against these champions to scale well into mid and late where she carries just as any adc. the same ghoes for ez and tristana who have seen play in midlane in the past. (ez is being played mid a lot right now). then you have jungle adc like kindred who can farm up in the jungle without direct confrontation.
and since the change to last whisper only costing 1300 gold to build into stronger items, adc also have a much better midgame than they used to.
Catastrop1 votesBecause 
is a tank. Seriously, you're talking like a Fighter being focused down is unheard of.
Meep Man1 votes1v3 versus three damage dealers, two of them being ADCs and one being a huge % health Mage. All have some form of armor/magic penetration and % health item/% damage boost based on health items.
Wow, you just set yourself up for an almost perfect anti-tank scenario.
Wolfess1 votes>ninja tabi
well there's your problem right there.
merc treads or swift would have been much nicer. also nasus doesn't need triforce. the vast majority of his dmg is from his stacks, a iceborn gauntlet would have been better for the slow field proc and a chunk more armor., plus it keeps people in his aoe longer.
More from Gameplay
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes
More by Jefftiffy
I'm tired of the fucking defeatist attitude in this game
Gameplay225 comments
203
votes
I'm not going to lie. I hate the new trinkets
Gameplay88 comments
184
votes
Kind of tired of LB
Gameplay93 comments
85
votes
This Gnar Syndra interaction
Gameplay41 comments
82
votes
Hrm I wonder why Red's don't post here
Gameplay74 comments
76
votes
Camille is probably one of the most toxic champs right now
Gameplay93 comments
72
votes