I Love Solokilling Marksmen Without Defensive Items . . .

ArnoldSchwarzens··1 votes·633 views

But we have to acknowlegde how hard it is for them to properly defend themselves against physical damage and armor pen stacking.

You can't build Dead Man's, it's melee only.

You can't go for Randuin's either, its active is super awkward to use since it's also melee.

The only real option that is left is GA and it's also the best option available. But it's still kinda meh. While melee champions have no problems with the stasis while getting revived - they have the tankiness and/or mobility to get out or they just keep going while they are in the midst of the enemy team - for marksmen it's pretty much a death sentence in most cases. As everyone knows, positioning is key to playing marksmen properly but being in stasis for 4 seconds straight makes that impossible in most cases. Plus, in some cases you don't even really want the MR since the enemy is full AD.

Then there's the pre-season changes to armor pen, now being lethality. I made the maths, when you get a full armor penetration/ lethality build, an enemy marksman without any armor besides runes will have a little more than 0 armor or just straight up 0 armor, depending on the enemy champion. Because of the way diminishing returns work, this means a lot.

Right now it's kinda fine since armor pen doesn't scale and armor pen builders will only murder marksmen in the early to midgame but in the next few patches it's just gonna be hell for them.

I'm not even an ADC main, I just feel bad for them. Give them at least one option to deal with high physical damage threats and armor pen stackers.

I mean just look at MR on marksmen for comparison. Sure, marksmen get no MR per level besides runes but a) magic pen stacking is a lot harder than armor pen stacking, both Sorcerer's Boots and Liandry's are getting outclassed by a lot of other items and Abyssal won't give magic penetration anymore in the preseason and b) marksmen have a lot more options to defend themselves from magic damage and magic pen stacking, they have QSS/Scimitar, Maw, Banshee's and now Edge of Night to deal with that.

I know it sounds a bit outlandish but what about an item that gives you both armor and AD or something similar? If not that, maybe an anti-assassin support item that protects a specific ally from physical damage?

EDIT: Looking at it again, it might not even be as bad as I thought at first. You could probably just buy the new tank support item, Knight's Vow, designate a Janna as your Partner, hug her all game and get 60 armor and 400 HP for only 2.5k. Problem solved.

I know it seems a bit weird at first but it wouldn't be the first time that an item that is intended for a specific group of champions gets abused by a totally different champion group.

16 Comments

ÈvilMorty4 votes

When Lucian and MissFortune can output 2-4k dmg on their ults when building lethality items, they get no sympathy from me

ArnoldSchwarzens1 votes

Well they lose out on a ton of early game power, the attack speed that Youmuu's previously gave you is gone and every marksman that is not Twitch or Vayne, both of which would probably still go for a crit build, won't make proper use of Duskblade either.

ÈvilMorty1 votes

But they get a ton of burst damage from these types of builds being the trade off being low attack speed but it seems to work in their favour anyway since a well placed ult (which is pretty hard to fuck up) outputting that amount of damage more then makes up for it late, which is where adcs shine anyway. Instead of there usual play style they go in burst, get out cuz of mobility (and decent peeling from supports/tanks) wait for cool downs on basic abilities(usually low compared to other classes) go back in, burst rinse and repeat.

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

Knights Vow will do pretty much what you said.

Aptest1 votes

I have not looked at numbers and options for new season.

But what is problem with purchasing item 3143 or item 3102 ?

Yes active is a waste for item 3143 but its got all the stats you need to survive and right click your way to victory.

When I mained ADC in season 4, I purchased these items a lot and it often gave me the upper hand against assassins and other bursters who thought they could just 1-shot me and ended up burning their full combo and dieing to my right click.

I have no sympathy for marksmen players who are getting 1-shotted and spend their next gold buying a BF sword. They don't build to survive, they don't deserve to survive.

As for support items. We have item 3190 with a nice small shield. we have item 3401 with a quite beefy shield. we're gonna have the new item with % damage reduce.

still need more ?

ArnoldSchwarzens1 votes

Well, I guess I agree with you at this point but Knight's Vow will outclass Randuin's by a longshot. Save 400 gold for only losing out on 100 HP and not having a wasted active.

I don't know. The concept of building either of both just seems so wrong to me even though they still probably are really good options to consider.

Aptest1 votes

Slot efficiency is super important if you have only 1 def item. possibly 100 extra HP is worth the 400?

ArnoldSchwarzens1 votes

I personally think that having defensive items at a low cost - or at least the main components of it, like Hexdrinker or QSS - is important to make you able to react to a thread as fast as possible after it manifests.

And to answer your question, you'd pay about 150% of the gold value of the 400 HP if you buy Randuin's over Knight's Vow.

I also like the passive effects of Knight's Vow more than the one Randuin's give you. Randuin's has 10% crit damage reduction and an attack speed slow when you get attacked, both of which are really situational.

Knight's Vow on the other hand gives you percent base HP regen which helps a lot with sieging an getting poked and an extra Janna passive towards your Partner.

The only thing that bugs me is that 12% of the damage your partner takes gets redirected to you.

My choice would be: Knight's Vow when you have a non-tank support that doesn't take a lot of damage that you can designate as your partner, Randuin's when you've got a tank support that would passively kill you if you had Knight's Vow.

Aptest1 votes

first. The whole "gold value" thing that everybody uses for comparison for a few years now is mostly an incorrect concept.

the actual "gold value" of a stat is largely dependent on what other stats you already have. If you have level 18 armor and a warden's mail, 400 HP are worth way more than they would at the beginning of the game. Furthermore if they buy you time to land 1 more 700 damage auto attack as a late game carry with 15% lifesteal, their value is further increased.

The purpose of a low cost defensive item on a carry is to prevent them from being blown up by the initial burst of whomever is trying to sit on their face. Doesn't allow you to 1v1, but gives your team enough time to respond and save you.

Which is to say, the support and jungler deploy CC, drop exhaust, the mid lane nukes the threat.

You can get this by buying components though. A giant's belt or the warden's mail. Why complete knights vow when the stats on RO are much better and you can get enough to get by?

Also with RO you have anti-crit passive which is useful against PD/IE wielding assassins.

Knight's vow is primarily a sustain item for tanks. Something they are btw missing. I guess you can grab it and go through the risk of eating some of the tank's damage intake.

Mostly the damage reduction is strong if the other guy gets it though. It's supposed to encourage "protect the carry" play styles from the support....

...which is something I am advocating against for a while now.

SwordOfWar1 votes

If marksmen built defensive items they wouldn't have enough damage to kill fighters with superior dueling kits. Their best defense is to build damage and teamfight.

ArnoldSchwarzens1 votes

I'll have to disagree with this one. I always get pissed when my ADC finishes his/her full build without even getting a semi-offensive item like a Scimitar.

SwordOfWar1 votes

In your full build yes, you can grab some defensive items. You should really try to end the game before you have 6 items though.

420 grams1 votes

They have qss and maw like you mentioned to not get one shot. They have range, damage, and mobility to deal with others. A marksman shouldn't be able to do tons of damage AND have sustain. They already get to kite, which gives them a huge advantage over melees at all levels since minions will chase melees past your whole team of minions and will chase you to tower, whereas they don't follow ranged past the caster minions. Late game marksmen can do tons of constant damage while kiting, giving them a chance to kill a melee before getting caught.

ArnoldSchwarzens1 votes

Both QSS and Maw don't help you against pen stacking. They do have range and damage but not everyone has mobility, the damage can't be done in time if you get bursted down in a few seconds and both range and mobility gets outclassed by the mobility and damage most armor pen stacking assassins have.

420 grams1 votes

How much armor are you taking when playing adc? Plus that's what assassins are supposed to be good at. If you don't want to get bursted by an assassin, play a tank. There's a counter system in games, that's why team comps are important and not everyone plays the same role. If adcs could sustain like tanks and do massive amounts of damage, it wouldn't be fair.

reaperteaser1 votes

i like to get zz rot as my last items on adcs, even tho it provides no damage, it can help save a lane or help take one over

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