Watching the enemy ADC kill himself on Gromp smite and Thornmail

Big Lincoln·Mar 24, 2015·75 votes·7,561 views

..while doing absolutely no damage to you

http://i789.photobucket.com/albums/yy178/tntkidsherdog/tyson_zpsbcqoqprr.gif

107 Comments

DrMarshSwampMar 24, 201556 votes

http://i.imgur.com/AdlTfKg.gif[/img]

How I see this new meta currently.

B1naryB0tMar 24, 20157 votes

Personally, I love it.

The SoulforgedMar 25, 20151 votes

I'm only sad because the gromp buff is limited to junglers with smite.

YOLO420SWAGSCOPEMar 25, 20153 votes

Why the hell wouldn't you take smite in the new jungle? I understand that it's possible with some champs but that doesn't mean it's good

B1naryB0tMar 25, 20151 votes

I think he meant it as "I wish laning tanks could get those benefits"

The SoulforgedMar 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Why the hell wouldn't you take smite in the new jungle? I understand that it's possible with some champs but that doesn't mean it's good

Let me rephrase. I'm only sad because this power is limited to junglers who have smite. Tanks in other roles won't get this awesome gromp buff which is pushing tanks back into the meta, even if tank junglers suffer a bit more that laning tanks.

Leti the YetiMar 24, 201511 votes

Rammus been doing this for years

5 Stacks GGMar 24, 201511 votes

adcs can snowball hard and kill everything with no one able to tank them, why can't tank be able to snowball and being hard to kill?

MannysmokerMar 24, 20154 votes

have u ever seen a fed Maokai is something disgustingly hard to kill alone.... do think is that fair...

WullfMar 27, 20151 votes

true, recently I got carried by fed Maokai. I could not belive how much damage he could soaked up without getting low. Damn terrifying.

FantasySniperMar 26, 20151 votes

Because when ADCs get fed, they're still super-squishy and vulnerable to CC and the largest threat on the enemy team that once gone makes the rest clean-up.

When you got a fed tank, you need the entire team to take them down with CC, then you have to deal with their teammates right behind them.

MathbalnaseMar 24, 20159 votes

Awesome, now we have almost an entire class of champions that has been rendered wholly incapable of killing another class of champion, even if the second champion stands perfectly still and takes no action in response. What wonderful balance.

Big LincolnMar 24, 201539 votes

i don't know what you want

do you want an ADC who's one/two items behind a tank who has invested entirely in mitigating damage, returning it (thornmail), and invested a summoner spell (smite) for another damage return DoT, to still shred that tank?

because i think it's pretty balanced if I beat someone who I have a massive lead over. isn't that how it works?

AriafluxMar 24, 201528 votes

I don't know, depending on how the meta changes over the next few weeks, it could be either balanced or imbalanced. I'm mainly worried that since ADCs are pretty much the main tank killer on the team, if tanks > ADCs, it might turn into tank > all, aaand we're back to the tank meta. No matter how much people say they love tanks now, the "fire balance team!" will start once the novelty wears off.

Big LincolnMar 24, 20159 votes

That's fair enough; I think that in most cases, since many tanks don't itemize for magic pen to take advantage of their strong Gromp DoT and Thornmail's damage return, you would be surprised by how much a little bit of MR can work for you.

It's also worth noting that as a DoT, the smite bonus reapplies, not stacks, so it's a bad idea to let it wear off and then attack him again. It could be a problem, but then again, I think it's supposed to be our answer to an ADC's frankly ridiculous sustain when it comes to life-steal.

I can see a reduction in its scaling occurring, though. 300+ magic DoT on the super-tanks can be pretty absurd.

ProfDrDeathMar 24, 20155 votes

Probably the Gromp Buff will either see a nerf to its scaling or a hard-cap in the damage value.

And actually, one of the counters to high HP targets is the supposed easiness with which you can lifesteal of them, as Lifesteal is calculated of damage done after resistances. Problem with that is when there's more than the strong Thornmail which negates said Lifesteal completely, with Gromp's on-being-hit poison and Cinderhulk's damage aura.

If it allows you to ignore your supposed counter without any action on your part, chances are that said mechanic is not particularily healthy for the game.

Danica1708Mar 24, 20151 votes

It could definitely be problematic, but at the same time, if you get item 3072 , item 3153 and item 3035 with the penetration masteries near the bottom of the offense tree and lifesteal quints, you can out heal at the least the Thornmail. The Gromp buff will probably see a bit of a nerf, it'll probably get nerfed to about 7% instead of the current 10%, but I think they're holding off on nerfing it just yet to see how the Sejuani nerfs affect the game because she was the tank that saw the biggest jump in play. But, as is said by Captain Aishi just a bit below, when ADCs can't deal with tanks, that's when DoT mages become meta. Malzahar is an amazing example of a good DoT mage who would benefit from this.

ProfDrDeathMar 24, 20151 votes

If an ADC has both BT and BotRK, he'll either lack IE or a dedicated MR item.

Let's go with the lack of dedicated MR item first: 30 MR + 27 from runes (assuming all per-level MR) = 57 MR for our carry. With a dedicated MR item like Banshee's, that would be 112 MR.

Target has, let's say, 150 Armor after penetration (which is feasible between Thornmail, base Armor and another big Armor item like Randuin's).

The actual damage each auto does is irrelevant, as both Lifesteal and Thornmail's damage are a direct function of it.

So, for the defenseless carry first: Thornmail damage = 0.3 D x (1 - 57/157) = 0.191 D Health return = LS x D x (1 - 150/250) = LS x D x 0.4 For Thornmail damage = Health return: 0.191 D = LS x D x 0.4 LS = 47.75% The defenseless carry needs 47.75% Lifesteal to negate Thornmail's damage alone

For the one with the defensive item: Thornmail damage = 0.3 D x (1 - 112/212) = 0.142 D Health return = LS x D x (1 - 150/250) = LS x D x 0.4 For Thornmail damage = Health return: 0.142 D = LS x D x 0.4 LS = 35.38% The carry without IE needs 35.38% Lifesteal to match Thornmail's damage. Even with the build with LS runes, he can only reach 34.5% Lifesteal. And said carry actually gives up his crit potential with this build.

ADDENDUM: There's a single possible way with that double Lifesteal build to outheal Thornmail: If the defensive item of the carry in question is Spirit Visage, as that item boosts all sources of healing by 20%, giving our carry effectively 41.4% Lifesteal. But that is only if the target has 150 Armor after penetration and no other form of anti-physical damage (Ninja Tabi, for example).

Danica1708Mar 25, 20152 votes

I don't see why item 3006 item 3153 item 3072 item 3035 item 3031 item 3102 isn't a viable build. I literally don't. It's a bit expensive sure, but I literally can't see why it's not viable with a 21/9/0 mastery set up and the 'traditional' ADC runes. Crit is more effective against squishy targets anyway, health shred and armor pen is better against tanks.

ProfDrDeathMar 25, 20151 votes

It is not a viable build due to the multiplicative nature of the secondary stats Critical Strike Chance, Critical Strike damage and attack speed.

Effectively, that build contains two times two halves of a coin, but two halves that can't be made to a single whole. Infinity Edge, especially since the nerf, is quite inefficient as a standalone item without additional crit, while BotRK would also profit very much from another source of attack speed.

I'd wager that a build of item 3006 item 3153 item 3072 item 3046 item 3035 item 3065 gives you more survivability and better effective damage output than the build above.

EDIT: Just ran the numbers: PD instead of IE is a better path, at least for carries with high base AS. With low base AS, I'd wager IE would probably be better.

Danica1708Mar 25, 20151 votes

Honestly, with that build you're really only getting two damage items because you don't pick up item 3153 for the AD, I mean it only gives 25. You pick it up for the health shred, attack speed, and active. So you're really only getting about 200 bonus AD if you take into account runes and masteries (roughly anyway, I don't want to do math right now) So that'd be about 300 AD total, it's really not much, especially taking into account that item 3035 can't penetrate through everything and you can get armor really high. I personally think that champions like Vayne would benefit more from your proposed build, while champions like Caitlyn or Lucian would benefit more from mine because your proposed build is more AA focused, mine is more suited to AD caster style ADC's. Both obviously viable builds and both good, just more effective on different types of ADC champions. AD caster style ADC's beenfit more from raw damage and penetration, while the AS and crit from item 3046 would benefit AA focused ADC's more.

I think we're just gonna have to see where this tank stuff takes us cuz honestly, ADC's shouldn't be able to obliterate tanks in what, 5 hits? 6 hits? The whole point of a tank is to be able to survive, not that I'm saying they should survive everything. Just... a bit more. Like they can now, it's better. Obviously not perfect, but I think it's going in the right direction. ADCs will have a hard time dealing with tanks, DoT mages will become strong, and DoT mages haven't really seen much play lately, so it would be refreshing for a change.

ProfDrDeathMar 25, 20151 votes

Yeah, both builds might be viable, and which one exactly might depend on the champion in question.

I need to also rectify my previous statement:

Using Ashe as an example and the most common runes and masteries (and a 3500 max HP target), both our builds actually are equally efficient - yours has an average DPS of 982.2, while mine has 983.0.

However, if you add another source of AD, like a Mercurial Scimitar, the equation changes, to favor the PD-build - which makes sense in the regard that the PD-based build has more effective multipliers.

I assume that, if you'd add a Wit's End instead of a Scimitar, your build would come out on top between the two of them with it as defensive, as it gives your build one of the things it lacks - additional AS.

While I agree with your notion of tanks being hard to kill in general, they should not be able to kill an attacker just by standing there and not dealing with him. I tend to think that that will be the challenge that has to be faced in balancing in the foreseeable future.

Danica1708Mar 26, 20151 votes

Well of course tanks shouldn't be able to kill someone just standing there. That's ridiculous, which is why I think the Gromp buff with probably get nerfed to 7 or 8% hp instead of the current 10%. Although if the ADC is low (~10% hp), then yes, just standing there should totally be enough to kill them, just sayin.

Later on in the game, item 3172 can replace boots because it gives more AS, almost as much MS, and it gives damage, CDR, and tenacity. So there's that. Although on some champions it's core, or it should be anyway. Lucian (slot efficient ult buff) Vayne (everything she needs when combined with item 3153 ) But yeah, so I guess if we're calculating maximum efficiency, we should include that.

FantasySniperMar 26, 20151 votes

A lot of them can get item 3001 .

Captain AishiMar 24, 20156 votes

I love tank meta, it's the perfect time to play anivia with liandry's torment and watch them melt :P

when tank meta becomes strong enough to face ADCs, DOT mages become the way to deal with them, since they invest in so much armor that your damage sticks to them really well

KaisadiIIaMar 24, 20157 votes

Malzahar hi

Captain AishiMar 24, 20155 votes

how to 100-0 a tank... ult him in your pool, disregard the other half of your damaging abilities, they are not needed :P

junglerboy16Mar 24, 20151 votes

yeah... 15% max HP as damage per second for 5 seconds... No tank lives through that.

Kuroi86Mar 24, 20151 votes

W: Magic damage per second: 4 / 5 / 6 / 7 / 8% (+1% per 100 AP) of enemies' maximum health Max damage: 20 / 25 / 30 / 35 / 40% (+5% per 100 AP) of enemies' maximum health

R: Magic damage per Half-second: 50 / 80 / 110 (+ 26% AP) Total Magic damage: 250 / 400 / 550 (+ 130% AP)

junglerboy16Mar 24, 20151 votes

Yeah, I was meaning the amount you deal with 700 AP (late game build where a tank is at their tankiest) which is 15% per second, 75% total, and the ult deals ~1450 as well.

KingsgraveMar 24, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Captain Aishi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JkAvEI3y,comment-id=0003000000010001,timestamp=2015-03-24T04:36:26.096+0000)

I love tank meta, it's the perfect time to play anivia with liandry's torment and watch them melt :P

when tank meta becomes strong enough to face ADCs, DOT mages become the way to deal with them, since they invest in so much armor that your damage sticks to them really well

I really really really hate Swain Malzahar and really don't want to see them become popular

Takeuchi 17Mar 24, 20152 votes

Malzahar is my main man. I hope he doesnt become popular either so I can stomp people. Rito better not touch my malz

aaronconlinMar 24, 20159 votes

I don't think its the league of tanks, I just think ADCs aren't used to tanks being able to survive against them

Art Of Solo QMar 24, 20153 votes

^ This, there is no doubt in my mind the longer tanks stay strong enough to actually deal with adcs the more adc mains will start to complain. We all do it no matter which role/class we play. Only difference is adcs are the only mandatory class in a game of league. No other class can do what they do, tbh riot will nerf tanks in the coming patches. We all know its coming. Which is sad -_-

"I cant 5 shot these tanks anymore, so broken!" - Adc mains

aaronconlinMar 24, 20153 votes

That and the fact that they refuse to vary in their builds. "This tank is dealing Magic damage to me with thornmail and Gromp buff and blocking a lot of my damage... Better build Attack speed"

YfrappefortMar 24, 20151 votes

{quoted}

^ This, there is no doubt in my mind the longer tanks stay strong enough to actually deal with adcs the more adc mains will start to complain. We all do it no matter which role/class we play. Only difference is adcs are the only mandatory class in a game of league. No other class can do what they do, tbh riot will nerf tanks in the coming patches. We all know its coming. Which is sad -_-

"I cant 5 shot these tanks anymore, so broken!" - Adc mains

You mean that, finally, a role can actually tank/disturb ADC without getting blown up in less then 5 seconds? Oh lord so OP please nerf (in all seriousness tough, finally ADC have to worry about tanks and enemy team has to work to peel the tank off their carry).

KatCraftMar 25, 20151 votes

That's because as an adc in league you are lucky to get in 3 shots before the Zed blows you up.

junglerboy16Mar 24, 20152 votes

I have to say, Gromp buff is over powered right now. I have been playing tank junglers since this time last year, and while they have always been on the fringe of viability (that or completely useless :C), this buff overdid it. They need to reduce the scaling on it to something like 8% bonus health. That is still a LOT of damage return, but not quite as OP as it is now. The only way to kill a tank is DPS, and being able to nullify the only real source of DPS on the other team is only good until the tank realizes he can kill everything else before dying. Gromp buff is temporary, yes, but within the timeframe it becomes suicide for an ADC to attempt to kill you. I was playing against a jinx the other day and Gromp buff returned about 300 damage. I had ~5k health, but they were full build, including armor pen, a Mercurial Scimitar, and a BT. Their lifesteal and MR barely kept up with my damage return (between Gromp buff and Immolate aura, I didn't even have a Thornmail). That is when you know it is too strong. She had a lead the whole game (highest CS in game, as well as 15 kills and only 2 deaths) but by the end of the game she killed herself on me ±5 times. It turned into a complete stomp, simply because the one carry that should have been able to kill me had to suicide to even get me to half HP.

Vivid MandalaMar 24, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Solomon Money,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JkAvEI3y,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2015-03-24T03:28:09.452+0000)

i don't know what you want

do you want an ADC who's one/two items behind a tank who has invested entirely in mitigating damage, returning it (thornmail), and invested a summoner spell (smite) for another damage return DoT, to still shred that tank?

because i think it's pretty balanced if I beat someone who I have a massive lead over. isn't that how it works?

You're shifting the terms of this a bit with assumption. Equally itemized adc vs tank. Tank wins overall. Adc tries, with last whisper and other armor pen, but the shear damage mitigation from the tank's item choices renders this pointless. But a tank should take a while to kill the adc. Deal damage certainly but how fast is it? Bruiser or built to do damage fast, or slow enough it was really the adc's fault for not backing off?

Art Of Solo QMar 24, 20152 votes

"But a tank should take a while to kill the adc."

A tank Should take a while To kill The squishy adc He says

KaisadiIIaMar 24, 20156 votes

That's the job of a tank. Marksmen shouldn't be able to melt tanks in 3-4 seconds like they've been doing since season 4. Marksmen have to deal sustained damage to delete priority targets. The fact that a marksman was doing a "good job" by focusing the enemy tank means we did something wrong. (And they can still kill them, just %Bonus Health + Gromp make tank junglers harder to kill them than before).

That's literally the job of a tank. To soak damage for their team. They shouldn't die for doing their job.

Also, we are talking about marksmen, their late-game stats are ridiculously strong: 700+ damage every second, targeted, with a % health, applying additional effects based on items/skills, zero cost for their damage... Late game they can kill whatever they want, what's so bad about them being weak against something? It's not like mages are weak against fighters, assassins are weak against tanks, fighters are weak against marksmen...

Also, people would realize that Wit's end deals 42 bonus MAGIC damage on hit, which is not returned by Thornmail, and grants magic resistance, which reduces damage taken in return by Thornmail. Woops! It has an actual utility!

MathbalnaseMar 24, 201513 votes

The 'job of a tank' is NOT to kill enemies without actually doing anything. That is not rightly anyone's job in this game.

Anyone who 'soaks damage' without actually doing anything about it should rightly die to that damage if they allow it to continue unabated.

IF YOU SIT THERE DOING NOTHING WHILE THE ENEMY DAMAGES YOU, YOU SHOULD DIE BEFORE THEY DO.

KaisadiIIaMar 24, 20154 votes

The 'job of a tank' is NOT to kill enemies without actually doing anything

They did not. If you attack a tank with Thornmail, it's your fault. He's not forcing to attack you by any means. You can leave that job to casters like Riven o mages like Anivia, that can melt them without dying.

Anyone who 'soaks damage' without actually doing anything about it should rightly die to that damage if they allow it to continue unabated.

"actually doing anything" soaking damage is doing something. You have to position well and force the enemy carry to attack you. Nobody will attack you just because "hey, a Rammus, let's focus him". They will attack you because "hey, that rammus juked our team and taunted our carry, we need to stop him".

IF YOU SIT THERE DOING NOTHING WHILE THE ENEMY DAMAGES YOU

You will lose the game. If they die trying to kill someone who's doing nothing, then they are worse than you.

ProfDrDeathMar 24, 20154 votes

They did not. If you attack a tank with Thornmail, it's your fault. He's not forcing to attack you by any means. You can leave that job to casters like Riven o mages like Anivia, that can melt them without dying.

Incorrect. The tank's job is actually to force you to attack him, by going up into your face and forcing you to deal with him. And if the only correct answer in dealing with him is you running away, chances are that your team will lose the fight.

And Riven will lose to that tank, as well - her damage in the later stages of the game is at least 50% based on auto-attacks thanks to her passive.

Art Of Solo QMar 24, 20151 votes

Life steal...you can get more life steal...

Bork BT LW IE PD Boots

^ Your welcome enjoy right clicking that tank 5 times again

ProfDrDeathMar 24, 20151 votes

If an ADC has both BT and BotRK, he'll either lack IE or a dedicated MR item.

Let's go with the lack of dedicated MR item first: 30 MR + 27 from runes (assuming all per-level MR) = 57 MR for our carry. With a dedicated MR item like Banshee's, that would be 112 MR.

Target has, let's say, 150 Armor after penetration (which is feasible between Thornmail, base Armor and another big Armor item like Randuin's).

The actual damage each auto does is irrelevant, as both Lifesteal and Thornmail's damage are a direct function of it.

Robin Song RobinMar 25, 20152 votes

If an ADC has both BT and BotRK, he'll either lack IE or a dedicated MR item.

Oh no, ADCs have to itemize according to the enemy team comp now(!) JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE

lightdragoon88Mar 24, 20156 votes

People always underestimate Thnornmail.

TTUPhoenixMar 24, 20154 votes

{quoted}

People always underestimate Thnornmail.

I did once in a recent game as Sivir against their jungle Nautilus. Then I realized I'd lost a third of my health for taking off 10% of his, and I went "AW HELL NAW" and ran away.