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It's pretty obvious why ADCs spike so hard after 2 items

Eedat··45 votes·2,864 views

Hmmmm its almost like they're having a shit ton of extra stats funneled onto them.

For the purpose of this, I'm going to be assuming level 11-12 which is right around that 2 item powerspike for ADCs. Also assuming Janna has Ardent and Redemption. JUST from a Janna (with Windspeaker's) pressing E on an ADC they gain:

  • 46 AD: 1610 gold

  • 30% attack speed: 750 gold

  • 350 health: 933 gold

  • 16 armor: 320g

  • 8 MR: 144 gold

#Total: 3757 Gold

Not even going to factor in the extra on hit damage and heal/shield from Redemption or Locket.

Wow, I wonder why ADCs spike so hard after two items. Its almost like they have over a full items worth of extra stats being crammed down their throats. These hypercarry ADCs that have been balanced over the years around their powerspikes are having a metric shit ton of INVISIBLE stats funneled onto them and its problem. I dont know abut you guys, but I remember when these Hypercarries were popular in the past they were pretty dogshit until 3-4 items. They actually had to scale up.

@Riot, why did you turn the support role back into a ton of invisible stats? Isnt that why you changed Locket? Isnt that why you reworked Sona? What gives? Isn't this exactly what you were trying to avoid?

In a desperate attempt to hyperbuff supports, you turned them into stat bots that point and click stats onto their team. Instead of making the role more dynamic you just shoveled move and more numbers onto their point-and-click abilities until you broke them.

Bonus: Lets hyperbuff tanks to the point where the only class in the game that can kill them in a reasonable amount of time is the class with very high DPS. CoughHypercarriescough and like 3-4 mages.

EXTRA BONUS: The class that funnels these stats onto the ADC also specializes in peeling and keeping them safe! Hell, lets give them an extra +30% healing and shielding without even trying!

Gee I sure wonder why these ADCs are so strong

58 Comments

Spank the Fox9 votes

Which is funny because a lot of ADCs didn't see a lot of changes this season beyond -300 gold on Zeal + IE combo and the brief rise and fall of the three Lethality ADCs (Jhin, MF, Varus), but somehow they're m a s s i v e l y broken all by themselves...

The RPC + Shiv combo can go though. But people really need to see that the emphasis on first tower gold and the increased buffs to support items is what helped create this monster.

Eedat5 votes

Uh, not exactly.

All the early game lane bullies that keep them down got heavily nerfed MissFortune Draven Caitlyn Brand Zyra Malzahar etc

Spank the Fox7 votes

Draven's bullying power did not get nerfed. His snowballing did.

Caitlyn is performing well at Worlds (for her 44% WR in 7.18) and that is pre-buff.

Zyra and Brand can still bully, but are less optimal because Coin just has slightly better income for a lot less effort

Again, it's been almost 0 direct balance changes to ADCs, the environment is making them a lot stronger than they really are.

Zero Skill Tank2 votes

environment

You spell 'enchanters' in a wierd way.

warpenguin5551 votes

Cait probably wont leave pro play anytime soon until she loses some of her siege power. Shes just way too good at it

Pentium210 votes

Well that's what people get for bitching about earlygame champions.

So maybe not bitching would be a good idea.

Executioner1 votes

oh man 300 gold everyone! THEY GET A POWERSPIKE 1 MINUTE FASTER!

Spank the Fox1 votes

hehe xd s00ooOoooO cheap!

GayFluffyUnicorn3 votes

Wait not much happened? Lethality nerfed, tanks nerfed with a few broken overpowered effectively nerfing bruisers/divers. Assassin "delayed". IE and Zeal items all reduced in cost massively. Shiv+RFC stack with eachother and warlords. Shiv dmg buffed. Ardent came. Knights vow buffed. But barely anything happened to adcs right? If we just leave out 3/4 of what actually happened adcs seem fine.

Penns9 votes

You cant only blame supports tho because Warlords, Shiv, RFC, IE and ER all got buffed a lot.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

Out of all of those only static got buffed a lot, the others only got small tweaks.

But the static buffs were huge.

Penns2 votes

Warlords was buffed a lot too for crit builds. Rfc has synergy with Shiv again so.. thats dumb.

Rest depends on how much you think 200 gold is. Considering how its basically an assist + a cannon minion.. Id say its a lot.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

Warlords was kinda unchanged except it was made a bit weaker early but stronger later as far as i know.

And i might have understated RFC, the "chargers energized attacks faster" deal is quite big.

But that's mainly because static started hitting a lot harder after it got buffed.

But that and warlord are enabled a lot harder thanks to RFC......case of synergy being too potent along with parts being kinda strong already.

But then again, warlords is mainly noticed on hard hitters like Jhin, Draven or.....mf and cait?

Jhin in particularly can heal a metric ton from his shots with a critbuild and warlord.

Eedat1 votes

It was changed so you had to build crit to use it efficiently instead of item 3812 item 3142 item 3147 item 3071

LordGeovanni1 votes

It should have remained nerfed for having a longer range. and not having to charge it up being constant

Mizaya1 votes

KogMaw , and item 3124 still sitting at 3600.

Snowplosion5 votes

Dude, this is way to many assumptions. Quite simply ADC spike at three items: IE + two zeal items. That give 80% crit and the +50% damage on crit. With an Ardent support the power spike can be at two items because the extra stats given by Ardent might as well be an Ardent on an ADC. I believe what should be done is pushing the spike to three items WITH Ardent and four WITHOUT.

wyvern0119761 votes

{quoted}

Dude, this is way to many assumptions. Quite simply ADC spike at three items: IE + two zeal items. That give 80% crit and the +50% damage on crit. With an Ardent support the power spike can be at two items because the extra stats given by Ardent might as well be an Ardent on an ADC. I believe what should be done is pushing the spike to three items WITH Ardent and four WITHOUT.

That is if you wan ADCs to just be walking bags of gold for every other role in the game because they have almost no DPS output until 30 minutes into the game. Don't worry though with this idiotic idea game will last 50+ minutes because no one can siege and actual objective. So i guess you want them to turn on the last 20 minutes of a WAY too long game.

HeresyHorus4 votes

Total: 3757 Gold

It is not just the gold ...

Try put the same value on a Lux that missed all of her spells or have them all on CD ... there goes all that gold down the drain.

ADCs reliability + BpS is what breaks any amount of gold put on them and breaks lifesteal too.

Is this relation really that hard to grasp guys ? ...

[zombie-nunu-bummed]

CrisisEchoes1 votes

Good luck missing a janna shield. That takes true skill.

Stars Shaper2 votes

Is BpS Bullshit per Second?

Sujiren3 votes

Pretty much back to runic bulwark era.

PePsiLemoNN3 votes

Someone who understand that adc's are supposed to deal damage while being easy to kill and that nerfing their damage wouldn't help PogChamp

GayFluffyUnicorn2 votes

ADCs are supposed to blow everyone up in two autos? I doubt that. SUSTAINED dmg. Means a lot of small damage or moderate damage over a longer period of time. But adcs deal burst per second right now and this can not be the purpose of adcs.

LordGeovanni1 votes

Easy to kill what adc is easy to kill when they can stand still and auto you and kill you before you reach them dont forget they can still kite

SB Arneeman1 votes

Well they are far from easy to kill in the current meta. The supportive items are just too powerful, you need about 4k burst to kill a peeled adc. It's not okay that a Twitch deals more AOE damage than the full burst of a mage in the same time window.

Kaeblen3 votes

You have accurately described the problem with enchanters:

all the power of the enchanter appears to belong to someone else.

Daddy Ants2 votes

{quoted}

Hmmmm its almost like they're having a shit ton of extra stats funneled onto them.

For the purpose of this, I'm going to be assuming level 11-12 which is right around that 2 item powerspike for ADCs. Also assuming Janna has Ardent and Redemption. JUST from a Janna (with Windspeaker's) pressing E on an ADC they gain:

  • 46 AD: 1610 gold

  • 30% attack speed: 750 gold

  • 350 health: 933 gold

  • 16 armor: 320g

  • 8 MR: 144 gold

#Total: 3757 Gold

Not even going to factor in the extra on hit damage and heal/shield from Redemption or Locket.

Wow, I wonder why ADCs spike so hard after two items. Its almost like they have over a full items worth of extra stats being crammed down their throats. These hypercarry ADCs that have been balanced over the years around their powerspikes are having a metric shit ton of INVISIBLE stats funneled onto them and its problem. I dont know abut you guys, but I remember when these Hypercarries were popular in the past they were pretty dogshit until 3-4 items. They actually had to scale up.

@Riot, why did you turn the support role back into a ton of invisible stats? Isnt that why you changed Locket? Isnt that why you reworked Sona? What gives? Isn't this exactly what you were trying to avoid?

In a desperate attempt to hyperbuff supports, you turned them into stat bots that point and click stats onto their team. Instead of making the role more dynamic you just shoveled move and more numbers onto their point-and-click abilities until you broke them.

Bonus: Lets hyperbuff tanks to the point where the only class in the game that can kill them in a reasonable amount of time is the class with very high DPS. CoughHypercarriescough and like 3-4 mages.

EXTRA BONUS: The class that funnels these stats onto the ADC also specializes in peeling and keeping them safe! Hell, lets give them an extra +30% healing and shielding without even trying!

Gee I sure wonder why these ADCs are so strong

So basically what you just said was

Supports and their items are the reason Hyper carry ADC's are so strong due to all the stats they ram down an ADC's throat.

As for Tanks, They are just as problematic.

Jinx - item 3153 item 3031 item 3085 item 3036 item 3094 item 3006 Maokai - item 3193 item 3068 item 3047 item 3065 item 3075 item 3083

Which one do you think won fights?

https://i.imgur.com/CN6DLhd.png

Even with 2 item 3033, 2 item 3153, 1x item 3071 this maokai still managed to live for ages.

Tanks are just as problematic and people are turning a blind eye to it.

This is what happens when they buff the hell out of tank items and nerf the % on item 3036 item 3033 item 3035

Anu3isII7 votes

You had a Full-AD teamcomp, with only Sejuani dealing some Magic Damage. Moreover, you were the only Ranged Damage dealer of your team. The enemy tanks could easily CC both Talon and Trynda, leading to one major DPS character (Jinx) vs two DPS characters (Draven and Orianna).

Your Teamcomp had two splitpushers that are really bad/vulnerable in Teamfights. I bet If Maokai was alone, he would have been rekt by Trynda alone. You had to force them apart by going 1 Top - 3 Mid - 1 Bot. I know that coordination is difficult in Solo Queue, but that is your only option to win the game outside of snowballing and finish the game fast.

I get that you had an annoying match, but it doesn't show that you lost as Jinx to a Maokai. You lost as a teamcomp against their teamcomp at the part of the game they excelled: grouping

GayFluffyUnicorn1 votes

^ Trynda and talon are both basically non existent against mao and galio.

wyvern0119761 votes

{quoted}

You had a Full-AD teamcomp, with only Sejuani dealing some Magic Damage. Moreover, you were the only Ranged Damage dealer of your team. The enemy tanks could easily CC both Talon and Trynda, leading to one major DPS character (Jinx) vs two DPS characters (Draven and Orianna).

Your Teamcomp had two splitpushers that are really bad/vulnerable in Teamfights. I bet If Maokai was alone, he would have been rekt by Trynda alone. You had to force them apart by going 1 Top - 3 Mid - 1 Bot. I know that coordination is difficult in Solo Queue, but that is your only option to win the game outside of snowballing and finish the game fast.

I get that you had an annoying match, but it doesn't show that you lost as Jinx to a Maokai. You lost as a teamcomp against their teamcomp at the part of the game they excelled: grouping

OR more appropriately he lost in champ select.

PopcornBunni3 votes

{quoted} Which one do you think won fights?

https://i.imgur.com/CN6DLhd.png

Even with 2 item 3033, 2 item 3153, 1x item 3071 this maokai still managed to live for ages.

Tanks are just as problematic and people are turning a blind eye to it.

This is what happens when they buff the hell out of tank items and nerf the % on item 3036 item 3033 item 3035

"Tanks" aren't problematic

Maokai Sejuani JarvanIV are the only problem tanks, two of which were made broken with specifically directed reworks

Shen Poppy Nautilus Ornn TahmKench Malphite all have abysmal winrates, and every other tank is middling.

item 3071 item 3035 were made substantially stronger with the tank update, removing more total armor while tanks have less total health. item 3153 is, therefore, conversely weaker, yet is still being broken by KogMaw Gnar and a few others.

LordGeovanni1 votes

Hyper carries naturally have bullshit stats and builds supports have always needed to protect and buff long before adcs got their bull shit items in season 6

PopcornBunni2 votes

Nah.

Tank update (7.9) invalidated every tank that wasn't outright made intentionally broken from it, while making adc itemization cheaper and more powerful

item 3086 and its adc upgrades made 200 gold cheaper item 3031 made 200 gold cheaper item 3087 damage massively buffed item 3072 item 3812 AD increased to 80 item 3035 line made cheaper while piercing for relatively more damage as tanks get less health and more armor

item 3031 + item 3086/item 3087 is the biggest reason for the 1.5/2 item spike, but the gutting of tank itemization is a big part of why they are near unstoppable.

Eedat1 votes

item 3086 and its adc upgrades made 200 gold cheaper

Yes, but the combine cost of zeal items went up a bit. Still overall cheaper though.

item 3031 made 200 gold cheaper

Yes

item 3087 damage massively buffed

V7.9

  • Combine cost increased to Gold 600 from Gold 550.
  • Energized attack bonus damage increased to 60 - 160 (based on level) from 50 - 120 (based on level).
  • Bonus damage to minions reduced to 65% from 120%.
  • Energized attack bonus damage against minions reduced to 99 - 264 (based on level) from 110 - 264 (based on level).

Thats barely a buff. Not even close to a "massive buff"

item 3072 item 3812 AD increased to 80

Nobody even uses them besides maybe Draven

item 3035 line made cheaper while piercing for relatively more damage as tanks get less health and more armor

Total prices went down 100g and it lost 10% shred (45% ->35%). Thats a big nerf. No clue why you're trying to claim it was buffed

CrisisEchoes1 votes

To be fair deaths dance is a good purchase vs assasins when you have a sustain bot on just about every adc.

LordGeovanni2 votes

You arent supposed to kill Tanks in a reasonable amount of time hence why They are called tanks. That should only be done by massively out numbering them 4+ people to 1 and they are literately stun locked with everything focused on them. One class should never be able to quickly deal with a tank's value is in Wasteing the enemies' time.

ZT Xperimentor2 votes

Supports actualy have a couple items worth using for once. Meanwhile marksmen have had extra stats for over the past year. item 3153 item 3812 item 3814 item 3508 item 3026 item 3036 item 3156 item 3139 item 3033 item 3046 item 3094 item 3087 item 3072

DaNinad1 votes

What shield gives armor and mr?

10110011100037 votes

Any shield with Windspeaker's Blessing

bro0rtega3 votes

REVITALIZE Heals and shields are 5% stronger and increased by an additional 10% on targets below 40% health.

This should be the replacement in the new runes. Seems more in line.

Iręlía4 votes

{quoted}

What shield gives armor and mr?

Janna's shield. Her target she uses it on gets stats.

Its called interactive gameplay.

DaNinad3 votes

It only gives ad and health doesnt it?

crippler385 votes

Janna's shield without outside modifiers gives the shield as extra temp health and bonus AD both based on the level of the shield and her AP for the scaling, the other stats mentioned in the OP are from outside sources like Windspeaker's and Ardent while also including the bonus shielding from outside sources.

So basically yes the shield itself only gives AD and shielding, the items that synergize with it give other stats.

Eedat21 votes

Windspeakers Blessing gives Armor and MR

Titanium701 votes

Well - all in all that's still the way how a ADC-Supp duo should work. One champion dedicating his entire Kit and Gold to another instead of the enemy.

That being said - the current state of bot is still a problem - but I dont expect any major changes until preseason plays out.

Besides that it's a real issue WHERE to hit Bot-Lane. The current problems are ALOT bigger than just Support/ADC/Itemization.

Mid-Lane is also a huge factor. Because it's basicly pointless!

All you do in later fights is zoning! You just stand in a good spot and hope for your frontline to survive theirs. That's all you do! (If not FED as FK)

SB Arneeman1 votes

The supports should be supporting the entire team, not just the ADC. However that's not possible with Ardent censer giving such massive stats when peeling for adcs.

wyvern0119761 votes

[{quoted}](name=SB Arneeman,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JgiabIcK,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2017-10-18T10:27:28.282+0000)

The supports should be supporting the entire team, not just the ADC. However that's not possible with Ardent censer giving such massive stats when peeling for adcs.

Might want to watch some LCS. Lots of support action that's not on ADCs. BTW most of you seem to ignore the fact Ardent has already had the major OP feature removed and the fact it is not a permanent buff you can't play around. ADCs do not have infinite availability to even its now diminished power.

SB Arneeman1 votes

Ardent is still strong even after the nerf, the crit items are still buffed. Meta supports are the ones that can keep Ardent up permanently on the adc. You clearly see how much ADCs dominate in pro play. One or both of the jungler and toplaner goes full utility tank, and the midlaner is usually someone with CC or an adc as well.

wyvern0119761 votes

[{quoted}](name=SB Arneeman,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JgiabIcK,comment-id=0008000000000000,timestamp=2017-10-18T10:50:52.697+0000)

Ardent is still strong even after the nerf, the crit items are still buffed. Meta supports are the ones that can keep Ardent up permanently on the adc. You clearly see how much ADCs dominate in pro play. One or both of the jungler and toplaner goes full utility tank, and the midlaner is usually someone with CC or an adc as well.

No champ can keep the buff up forever, and even late game most have about 20% up time or less. Janna and lulu were the major offenders and Janna got hit hard. ADCs have dominated pro play from the beginning because they are the only real source of sustained DPS and very well should be. Its their role. If worlds was not behind a patch you would not see as many ardent censor/ADC centered teams.

The fact that other lanes have to contribute in a team/supportive way only makes the game better. Having four people essentially playing on islands and one support running between them does not feel like a team game. So its great that the other roles have to actually consider something other than trying to play solitary hard carry.

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