The amount of RNG that's been added to the game is absolutely ridiculous. Balancing the game on RNG is really dumb, and removes competitive integrity when situations can vary drastically based on the roll of a die.
Ren Amari6 votesYou should probably add some examples.
Z3Sleeper13 votesProbably referring to Kleptomancy and Zoe's W. Those are the newest additions at least. Can't think of what else is RNG outside of drakes and crit.
TehNACHO3 votesOkay but in the case of Zoe's W, you can see the bubbles coming? Drakes too, more or less.
Kleptomancy is slgihtly overtuned imo, but more importantly, its worst abusers are skewing it really badly. It's kinda meh on most any other champion though so I don't think the problem is necessarily in Kleptomancy's design itself.
Z3Sleeper8 votesRNG to determine whether you get +300 gold on 3 consecutive procs or a free skill level up is pretty bad design imo. (hate using that phrase cuz I like Riot, but sometimes there's no other way to put it)
RNG just isn't meant to exist in league, and this form of RNG is far worse than Crit.
Also for Zoe its still rng what the minions will bring. You can get cucked with things like smite and cleanse or get a huge advantage via things like ignite and every other damaging active item or shielding item.
But what you get is never something you can plan. It's just like "hey here's your next order of RNG good luck" which can either do nothing for you or suddenly flip the table on your lane opponent. It feels bad to use and to play against.
Basically things you can't plan for, things that are left completely up to chance just don't work out in a competitive game and just leaves the receiving end feeling cheated when the opposition gets an RNG roll that completely turns the tide.
I honestly think that nothing outside of crit chance and the new dragons, cuz they're k, should be left up to RNG. Even now Crit is still definitely a hot debate for whether it should be RNG or not cuz RNG just feels bad.
Sire Hippington4 votesI honestly think that nothing outside of crit chance and the new dragons, cuz they're k,
Why would you think crit is k but rng like zoey's isn't? Overall, crit is much more common in the game and has a massive impact while haveing no telltale at all. While i still dislike zoey's rng, i think thenacho has a point, you atleast know whats comeing in advance and thus can react on it. Sure it sucks that you have to play passively cause she's getting a gunblade active ince the minion dies, but atleast you have the chance to fall back and prevent the worst. With crit that's not the case, eitehr you're fuckrd by rng or not and that's it.
It honestly buffels me how anyone can criticize RNG and yet think Crit is k, which is about the worst RNG of em all...
TehNACHO3 votes[{quoted}](name=Sire Hippington,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JeNqAnU2,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-01T21:12:03.781+0000)
It honestly buffels me how anyone can criticize RNG and yet think Crit is k, which is about the worst RNG of em all...
This, basically.
As for Z3Sleeper, the statement about getting 300 gold or a skill level up or whatever the fuck we want to go with is still a state of balance issue to me. Take Kleptomancy off of Ezreal or Bankplank's Q and force them to actually auto and suddenly those abuse cases become less extreme. Fine tune the gold supply, especially since as a fixed number that's literally the easiest thing to balance with tuning, and you can lower "300 gold" procs. You're using balance as an argument against design. Use design to argue design.
Zoe's RNG is exactly what you can plan for. You can see the minion dropping a bubble, you can see Zoe running to the bubble. You could manipulate the wave so that you're shoving against Zoe since her waveclear isn't as aggressive as some other champions, making it harder to advance forward for that bubble or to even use the ability on you. You can poke Zoe down since, like a Draven axe, you know exactly where she's beelining. You know what you can't plan for? If your next auto attack is a Crit or not and will win you the trade.
This is literally Dragon RNG arguments all over again.
1 800 GGTOOEZ2 votesYes, you can see the bubble, but if you can't stop Zoe from getting it, there's a HUGE difference between her getting Smite and her getting Teleport, one that completely changes the game depending on which she gets. "You can plan around it" is a really dumb reason to justify such a thing.
Z3Sleeper1 votesYou're using balance as an argument against design. Use design to argue design.
Good point. My bad. But looking at it in that regard I still don't know if I agree with Kleptomancy as a whole.
I started using it on Urgot and Illaoi and I've had games where I get what's essentially nothing from it and others where I got so many elixirs of rouge, wrath and iron that I was basically an item ahead the whole game.
Maybe what I really want is for Klepto to just not be as RNG but still be Klepto yknow?
Something like this:
Every x Klepto procs you gain a random potion, ward, elixir/rouge or sack of gold in that order.
Then suddenly I love Klepto and like how balanced it is. Toss in "adaptive-ish" elixir gaining so those who want Sorcery/Wrath/Iron (those with scalings or more of the stat, Riven shouldn't get Sorcerys) and I'm sold.
As for Zoe I see what you mean. I honestly shouldn't be talking about Zoe since I've only played against her a ton and as her twice in ARAMs.
I will leave this though. A critical strike that you can plan for means that your opponents won't engage until that critical strike it down. Which is why showing you when you're going to crit isn't a thing. If we're comparing critical strike to the huge dueling power boost Zoe can get from an item active, wouldn't that be to the same possible effect?
Edit: Just noticed the OP replied to you with the same kind of reasoning.
Once again I don't play Zoe though, so my opinion honestly isn't too validated moreso just speculation atm still (I blame BE values taking me years to finally buy her lol).
Shadòw1 votesIt is also about what you get from the bubbles.
It could be 3 Cleanses vs an AD Assassin or 3 times Flash.
TehNACHO1 votesIs that actually possible? Riot likes pseudo-RNG engines, not actual RNG engines, meaning stuff that is technically possible with actual random chance shouldn't occur in League, such as triple Cleanse in this case or 1% Crit rune cheesing you multiple times in an instance.
Shadòw1 votesIt was an extreme example, but you get the point.
It could come to situations where the RNG of 1 bubble determine if you win or lose the trade, or even if you live or die. Same problem with crit, but that has a reason why it is still here at least (would need a complete rework of the ADC items and rebalancing)
But I wonder why they force RNG onto everything these days. The elemental Drakes were already a bad idea, and is even worse executed.
Mokuto Bunshi1 votesDon't forget about dragon spawns, if you don't got a Shayvana or a champ that benefits from move speed, I've seen wind drags SIT all game till the end.
Z3Sleeper1 votesHuh. I find Wind dragons to be the 2nd best dragon next to Infernal in my opinion. Helps with roams, engages, and followups to engages.
All things my teams are always in desperate need of help with.
Mokuto Bunshi1 votesThe operative word being team. When im in a premade, yes. But in solo que when im not the jungler, this has happened a few times already till late in the game almost till when elder spawns
Z3Sleeper1 votesI honestly mean more for solo Q. There's so little coordination that every bit of extra MS to help your allies get in once their hamsters process what's going on is good.
Mokuto Bunshi1 votesAgreed.
WEANUS PEANUS2 votesDragons crit Zyra passive seeds Illaoi tentacles Bard chimes Zoe W Kleptomancy
those are just the ones off the top of my head
FOR JUSTICE2 votesbut the best stuff is RNG
coin kleptomancy matchmaking
Douglas Funnie2 votes"Runes Reforged" was Riot's attempt to cater toward the casual players. The game has turned into a casual game. It's not meant to be played competitively anymore. Lessening the skill gap by:
Wait until Mid Season 8.
Winek Chan1 votesPlants are RNG? Since when?
TehNACHO3 votesThat was their original design premise before Riot decided to standardize them more.
Shatter the Sun1 votesThe game is alive because of casuals. Without us this game would get nowhere. Now a days with games being easier to get into, league had to do something to make people want to get into their game. Playing a game shouldnt feel like a chore (RPGs are different cause they have a immediate goal at the end that usually justifies the chore-ish gameplay...) Climbing feels like a chore atm and so I stick with norms where I dont get flamed AS MUCH about going smite mid diana.
Shatter the Sun1 votesThe game is alive because of casuals. Without us this game would get nowhere. Now a days with games being easier to get into, league had to do something to make people want to get into their game. Playing a game shouldnt feel like a chore (RPGs are different cause they have a immediate goal at the end that usually justifies the chore-ish gameplay...) Climbing feels like a chore atm and so I stick with norms where I dont get flamed AS MUCH about going smite mid diana.
Z3Sleeper8 votesKlepto is the only RNG rune.
Plants have set spawn locations, set spawn times and set respawn times. Nothing rng about it.
Yeah Zoe is RNG, sadly enough. Something I personally think needs changing. Minion drops need to give her something else rather than a random summoner or active item.
Häxel2 votesso oold runes were for competive? quite some bull** sry to say. Everyone picked the same. beside one or another jungler picking one exp rune there wasn't quite something special. The causals mostly cried for removing their critdmg, critchance, cdr, movementspeedrunes etc. There is like nto one proplayer whos ays the new system is bad for competive or the game.
The new runesystem is both: Better for casuals and competive: Cause it is easy to understand by not having 2 systems with masteries but just quite one, free for everyone without needing hours of grind to purchase runes with ingamemoney or by actualy pruchasing them with real money and giving causals and progamers to think even more outside of the box for special strategies. Pros didn't loose much with the old runes, they already ahd all important for them. New players who wanted to play competive had not only the problem of not having all champions but also having the need to purchase runes as well. Now its quite easier to get pro by just having to purchase champions. But also casuals can qutie enjoy the game. They mostly not realy spend much their time ito unlock as many runes. And now they get a whole system for free, the system pros use too.
Pros can use things like hextechflash, ghostporo, zombieward, futures market etc for even deeper strategy plays as before. Same did plants to the competive game. It is and was never since the start of them being live rng. They have static timers and Pros/(jungle)matchups jsut got even deeper with that. If riot would not have cared about competive they would not have introduced 2017 the 10 bansystem. why the fck they even would not care competive? there comes huge amount of the money riot earns. Small rng like the dragons, clepto and zoe don't hurt the game much, it still is not completly rng like hearthstone. And that game is even a competive game too.
And tell me pls again where did they make it latly exactly easier to last hit? There was nothing big changed altly. Maybe 1 or 2 years ago. And just cause this game is not dota makes it not less competive. The ability to last hit even for players who have a ping of 100 and not 0 is nothing bad.
Noblewind1 votesIn a lot of ways the new runes actually make the skill gap larger, because they enhance the strengths of champions and add variation whereas old runes and masteries were frequently used to offset a champion's weaknesses and offered little to no variation in decision making
ZURELL1 votesbut i've had the most fun playing this game since cleptomancy was put in. shut up X(
Shatter the Sun1 votesI dont mind league being a casual game. It is a GAME after all and one that is brought down constantly by people always quoting the pros for every situation. Just cause dopa build X item on X champion in X lane doesnt mean its viable in every situation or even good.
On the RNG note. It makes the game more interesting and stops you from following set plans and guide lines to playing lanes. It forces you to adapt and change based on the situation which in turn requires skill as well. If someone gets a pot of iron from klepto when fighting you and you both are low and you notice and flash out because you realized you werent gonna win that fight, takes skill.
This whole game is a RNG fest. From the matchmaking to the ingame mechanics. The fact you are now saying something shows you just need to ADAPT to it. Team based games always have a large degree of RNG due to players alone.
Junebuck1 votes[{quoted}](name=Shatter the Sun,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JeNqAnU2,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-12-01T15:50:58.283+0000)
I dont mind league being a casual game. It is a GAME after all and one that is brought down constantly by people always quoting the pros for every situation. Just cause dopa build X item on X champion in X lane doesnt mean its viable in every situation or even good.
On the RNG note. It makes the game more interesting and stops you from following set plans and guide lines to playing lanes. It forces you to adapt and change based on the situation which in turn requires skill as well. If someone gets a pot of iron from klepto when fighting you and you both are low and you notice and flash out because you realized you werent gonna win that fight, takes skill.
This whole game is a RNG fest. From the matchmaking to the ingame mechanics. The fact you are now saying something shows you just need to ADAPT to it. Team based games always have a large degree of RNG due to players alone.
As a freelance statistician, I disagree with you and I believe there is a problem with RNG in League of Legends. Riot now tends to the biggest eSport in the world. It is a game that can be played casually with or without RNG, but competitive League is what has allowed this game to grow and what often makes it so captivating to watch as well as play. So what could go wrong with RNG?
Consider the economic principle of marginal analysis, which in this context can mean that the smaller some sort of margin between two teams, the more that little things matter to an outcome between the two teams. Say two pro teams, hypothetically, are equal in skill, or are at least equal by a certain point in the game, and a teamfight will swing the advantage. A close teamfight could be won with a certain random proc, like Zoe picking up a support's Redemption. People will later be able to see that RNG won that fight, and skill did not matter for the losing team in the end. I believe it would cause community disillusionment towards competitive League.
That's why RNG is bad. It does not even have to do with matchmaking or skill because essentially nobody except the very top 0.001% have decent overall skill. But when you inject RNG in competitive context, what happens to the 99% that are watching? Are they incentivized to increase their skill when they know BS like that can happen? I'm certainly not incentivized to grind in Hearthstone because of all the RNG. I'm implying that there might be a ripple effect down the ladder, no matter how random matchmaking is.
I think that Runes Reforged is actually a good thing that Riot implemented to make the game more accessible (less expensive) to new players, but I think they should remove RNG procs.
ModAcademy Kayn1 votesI think a potential difference between RNG, like RNG based results, and RNG based Decisions.
Klepto is an RNG based result, what you get and achieve from it is purely RNG. Zoe's W, on the other hand, while it may be RNG to what she can use, it's how she uses it, which matters. Now, there might be some weird cases, like that one thing about Teleport x 3 or something, but that can be tuned to avoid freak circumstances.
Wheatloaf1 votesIf Zoe picked up the support's redemption during a fight, nothing RNG happened. The support used their own redemption, dropped a bubble, and their team let Zoe get to it.
Existential Bard1 votesI do have to disagree with you on this post. Sure RNG sort of creates imbalance since both sides do not always have the same chance, but I think the game is still competitive in that RNG presents decisions to players. These RNG decisions are not in themselves innate advantages for each RNG circumstance has unique consequences.
For example, the plants in the jungle. Sure they are sometimes up and sometimes not. But each of these have potential drawbacks when used.
Honey fruit: Positive effect of healing, negative effect of slowing
Scyers Bloom: Positive effect of vision for some part jungle and wards, negative effect of showing when it is used so you can be tracked down.
Blast cone: Positive effect for getting away, negative effect for going back into the fight or accident running into an enemy after you thought you got away if it was unwarded.
The competitive nature of the game isn't ruined by these RNG chances. They allow for players to make decisions based on the moment to moment gameplay. As such, those that utitlze these circumstances the most effectively are rewarded with the ability to outplay the opponent. It is really no different than using a champion and deciding when to go in or not. Every moment of the game is a culmination of the choices we make. The resulting outcome depends on the chances we take or didn't take.
JoeMG1 votesCrit is by far the worst offender. I think I'd rather see a %hp damage stat so at least it's consistent.
Klepto second (like someone said they should at least make it so abilities with on-hit effects can't proc it).
At least Zoe can be zoned off of minions and the same random dragons are available for everyone in the game.
Then again, I'm one of the weirdos that thinks League loses some of its competitive merit over the fact that certain champs/team comps can be more impactful than individual skill.
WinXOfPower1 votesStop throwing your competitive into my RNG!!!!
BoNaFiDeOuTkAsT1 votesBard Chimes and Zyra Seeds. I don't like the RNG concept.
But for some reason I'm okay with Critical Strike Chance. But I feel like I'm okay because it seems really balanced and even scales pretty evenly throughout the game.
Gives No Lux1 votesAbsolutely. It is about time for Riot to take a serious stand against Riven Narcissism Gymnastics or the ability for Riven players to find a way to take credit for any good plays, even those cross map, and put the blame for any mistakes on everyone else.
Riot, R.N.G. is a bane on the Rift and needs to be addressed immediately.
TerraMortem1 votesRNG is fun af on zoe it makes the game slightly different every time.
I love getting a proto belt kill at lvl 3 lol
Teridax681 votesAs others have said, it might help to list the instances of RNG in the current game:
Effectively, randomness has always been, at best, an unnecessary addition to League that adds little real variation or meaningful gameplay in a PvP environment. At worst, however, it's a source of vast swings in power and momentum that feel completely unjustified when they occur, and that are only exacerbated in today's snowbally environment, where even one early death can cost a team the game. Moreover, whereas Riot once tried to justify RNG as valid only if it were predictable on both sides and tactical, this has not really translated well to their practices, as the random benefits offered by Kleptomancy or Spellthief are both neither particularly predictable nor tactical. As a result, the game feels less fair when those mechanics are involved, which is particularly aggravating when matches also feel like the outcome can be completely decided by a single advantage.
Lord of Math1 votesWell the game is RNG in solo quel join sol q and suck it up.
